It always makes me shout at the TV when tele-evangelists declare that they will give you a free book if you give them a cash gift! Why not just say the book costs a certain amount and let people buy them, if you want to sell a book, sell a book, don’t pretend that you are giving someone something free.
Here is a clip in which a Breslover Rabbi, the highly respected Rabbi Shalom Arush, assures people of miracles and salvation from trouble if they buy and distribute 100 of his conversionist Emunah CDs! It is not enough to ask people to buy your product because you believe it is great, but to claim miracles and salvation or say it is a free gift when you sent money for it, is simply unethical.
Comedian Lenny Bruce once remarked that he had nothing against God, he just didn’t trust anyone who worked for him!
Haha!
Whilst we’re on the subject I just wanted to let everyone know that if they send me a ‘love gift’ of £49.99 I will happily and speedily despatch my new book on how to make money out of religion
Just for you Stuart
Thank you Yeze, I still have tears in my eyes from laughter and had to cross post!
fantastic!
Did not Martin Luther split with Rome over the sales of indulgences which supposedly delivered salvation to the purchaser?
This always reminds me of the indulgencies Ken. Same error, modern spin…
Rabbinic Judaism is very similar to Catholicism & Karaite Judaism is similar to Protestantism – however whilst Protestantism has grown in strength since the sixteenth century, Karaism has nearly died out.
The Karites died out like any group the separates itself from the Torah will eventually disappear. The same happened to the earliest Jewish Christians. It is the clearest proof that they were wrong.
Except Jewish believers in Yeshua are back now in pretty large numbers… more believers now in the land of Israel than ever before since the days of Peter and Paul!
<<>>
There have always been Christian Jews. Now in the end times they are more prominent.
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And just note it is only his particular CDs that can earn you enough merit, he is kinda cornering the market isn’t he.
Moshe that was the Ebionites that disappeared, not Jewish followers of Yeshua!
Gev, The modern ‘messianic movement’ has nothing to do historically with the earliest Jewish Christians. ALL of the ‘Jewish’ Christian groups whether Ebionite, Nazorene or whatever they called themselves disappeared. There is no historical continuity. Those few Karites can claim a continuity to its founding about 1300 years ago. Orthodox Jews can trace their continuity back to the Pharisees and further back. Messianics only go back to the Hebrew Christian fellowships of the 19th century.
Moshe I am not talking about movements or organisations, there have always been Jewish disciples of Yeshua throughout history. There has been recent research into the pre 19th century manifestation of Jewish followers of Yeshua. http://caspari.com/page.php?content=programs/reviews/jewish_believers_in_jesus&nav=research
Are you telling me that all of those Jewish people who converted to the traditional churches and REJECTED their Jewish heritage are part of your ‘history’????? If any of them were here on this blog, they would be castigated.
BTW you seem to think there are no valid reasons for a Jewish convert to accept the theological basis of replacement theology which makes it clear one cannot be Jew and Christian at the same time.
Sorry Moshe, don’t understand the point you are making here!
All the Jews whop converted before the 19th century left not only the religion (Judaism) but the people. They recognized that Christianity nullified their identification. In fact they understood that if Christianity was true, then Israel=Jewish people was no longer true. To claim these converts as having some relationship to the modern MJ movement is absurd. In fact, since they were followers of the traditional churches, and the MJs take the protestant view of the traditional churches, it is particularly laughable.
Moshe speak plain English, can’t understand you mate!
C’mon Moshe, Lazer Brody and Shalom Arush are clearly jealous of Messianic Jews & Christianity in general. Imagine if 1 billion Gentiles shared their passion for Rabbi Nachman, think how many CDs they could sell!
Do you know these people personally that you can make such a statement?
“All the Jews whop converted before the 19th century left not only the religion (Judaism) but the people.”
This is largely true Moshe, however mostly because they were forced out of their families and community and the Churches that receieved them were less than sympathetic to their desire to maintain their Jewish identity, and yet despite getting attacked on both sides, many did maintain their Jewish identity as disciples of Yeshua. See All Love a biography of Ridley Herschell by Geoffrey Hendreson and there is graphic illustration of the very difficult position these Hebrew Christians were in.
No true really. Untill the 19th century where religion and nationhood, became separated Jews and non-Jews looked upon Jewishness and Judaism, as being the same. I consider the separation of the two as racist, based on 19th century concepts of race with no historical support. I realize that this view is a problem for the modern MJ movement and that is why they need to revise history all the time.
Moshe, you have a fair point about how religion and nationhood were commonly viewed before that time, however that is not how these folk saw it, they had no problem maintaining faith in Yeshua and being Jewish but both Church and Synagogue did. You just have to read their personal stories to see they held the two things very dearly.
But that is a VERY modern idea. I seriously doubt you can prove anyone before 1700 held such a view. Give me an example of someone before 1700 who felt that way.
All the first followers of Yeshua that are recorded in the NT for a start!
I should have clarified before 1700 and after the early Jewish Christians died out around the 5th century. (Although there were church fathers (Hypolites is one I believe) who were born Jews and left Judaism and the Jewish people to become Christians. I believe that shows real ‘dedication’ (or foolishness) for their beliefs.
A read of this book http://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Rabinowitz-Messianic-Movement-Christianity/dp/080280859X will also shed on historic Messianic Jewish identity
Read the book.
Have it and read it
Moshe both Church and Synagogue put them in an impossible situation, rather than accepting them for what they wanted to be the Synagogue threw them out and the Church welcomed them with open arms, so hardly a suprise where they went is it!?
I think this is revisionist history. Applying 19th century ideas of nationhood and race, to pre-19th century people. The only ones who tried to be ‘Jewish’ and ‘Christian’ were the Marranos who were forced to convert and really didn’t believe. They tried to find some middle way. And the truth is that they show that until the modern ideas of a Jewish race developed, the view of Jewishness was what I have been saying, a clan where you can get in but also leave. One way of them leaving was to become a Christian (or Muslim.)
You seem to think that the Church was ‘evil’ for making Jews who converted leave their Jewishness, but that was never a complaint against the church by Jews. It is a modern complain, having no historical parallel.
Constantine was evil when he banned Easter from being celebrated at the same time a Passover and forbade Jewish practices, so from that time on when the Roman Empire got its hands on Christianity and it became Constantinanity, Jewish followers of Jesus were forced to supress ethnic identity and cultural expression. Today many churches recognise that Christianity is not about ethnicity, no one is born a Christian, they may be born a Catholic etc… but the New Testament definition of a Christian has nothing to do with race or clan, it is not automatically inherited from your parents, it is the consequence of conviction.
Did you not understand what I said, or were you just ignoring it. The church was agreeing with Jews that these Jewish Christians had left Judaism. Neither the church nor Judaism at that time recognized your racial definition of ‘Jew’.
I still don’t understand somethign Gev. Do you agree that someone could convert and become a ‘Jew’?
Hypothetical question Moshe would you be 100% happy of your daughter (if you have one) marry someone who was magayered?
I have no idea what you mean. (BTW I have daughters and none of those who are married, or the one who will marry in the future could marry anyone I did not approve of.)
Does anyone here read Tanach? Psalm 31:18 “Let their lying lips be silenced, for with pride and contempt they speak arrogantly against the righteous.” People, if there’s one thing Hashem despises is speaking forbidden and false words against anyone, especially his righteous ones. Please watch what you speak about tzaddikim, this is no joke!
Nosson, where is the lie here, that you’ll get z’chuyot for selling Rabbi Arush’s CD’s?
Rabbi Arush is doing exactly what Christian do: promising blessing to those who disseminate his teachings (really his interpretation and explanation of teachings of Rabbi Nachman of Breslov). How is this different in essence from Christians who imagine they will receive Heavenly Reward by distributing New Testaments and Gospel tracts to people? It is the exact same principle, in my opinion.
Breslovers consider Rabbi Nachman’s teachings to be the Jewish equivalent of the Brit Chadasha: a renewed and reinterpreted Covenant of God for His People.
Menachem, your comment of “Breslovers consider Rabbi Nachman’s teachings to be the Jewish equivalent of the Brit Chadasha: a renewed and reinterpreted Covenant of God for His People” is completely FALSE. There is NO new “covenant” in Breslov. Please don’t spread lies. It’s obvious you’ve never pick up or even read a Breslov book when you write something like this.
If the words come from Rabbi Arush then they are true. There is no one with more Emuna in this world.
I am A Noahide, Rabbi Shalom Arush fills me with joy, only one person could say these things and it be true.
One CD is priceless.
Rabbi Shalom Arush said “God is ever so accessible to everyone of us. Emuna is the key to inner peace, happiness and well-being. Emuna is critical in every stage of our lifes, from the mundane occurrences to the milestone events. It’s our job to spread it around the globe. To do so, I need your help.
God bless”
Gev,
Judaism is not a conversion religion, the cost of the CD’S is the cost of production, the message is a free gift from God.
That’s what I love about breslev.co.il! Good prices, almost nothing for what Good you get! Lessons for life!
Shalom Arush and Lazer Brody are good people just trying to help people and spread a good lesson most people need in their lives. you could use some emuna too, i meAN THOSE OF YOU WHO CHOSE TO SPEAK ILL OF PEOPLE YOU DONT EVEN KNOW! and steve is right the cost of those cd’s is the cost of production. i guess you were never on the website. however steve i am a convert but there are jews in my family. you are right though its not a religion that tries to covert people. i did it on my own. it always amazes me the ignorance of of people that talk a lot of crap but dont do the home work so they would know the truth in the first place.
“the ignorance of of people that talk a lot of crap”…. ironic really!
Hey Gev,
What I find “ironic” in a real gut busting way is a conversation I recently had with friends who are still involved with the MJ congregation I formerly attended. Apparently, during a visit last year from another big MJ leader from Israel, said leader encouraged them to read a series of books to heighten their sense of holiness and prayer.
Any guesses on the books…I’ll give you some hints-
hint 1) all three books are written by the same author
hint 2) that Jewish author had one of his prize students do the translation work on all three books
hint 3) the subject matter of the first is on faith–something like “Garden” in the title; the second is about prayer ..again the title is something like “forests” or “fields”; the third is how husbands should treat their wives.
Apparently, this guy is touring MJ/Hebrew christian congregations teaching the tenets of the Hassid author noted above (might be that this posting/thread is actually talking about said author) as well as hawking his own “holy” diet plan.
So, while you might be claiming the “voice of moral authority for MJ’s everywhere”, you might want to check on your peers…apparently some of them are fraternizing with the enemy, while making money with their own “get rich the holy way” schemes.
Pot….meet kettle.
I should clarify. I wrote :
“Apparently, this guy is touring MJ/Hebrew christian congregations teaching the tenets of the Hassid author noted above..”
What I should have said was “..teaching the tenets espoused by the above author, only in a way that fuses them with christian dogma…”
Quite frankly, I think that is a pretty clear example of the forcefully spot-welded conglomeration of Judaism and christianity that MJ invariably finds itself becoming….what about you Gev??
“Quite frankly, I think that is a pretty clear example of the forcefully spot-welded conglomeration of Judaism and christianity that MJ invariably finds itself becoming…”
Go on, while we’re at it:
What about R. Arush copying the worst of American Pentecostal televangelists?
Did you notice the point of the original post?
michael (mrawilson) why the change to michael w (goytoshav)?
nice ironic jump to your topic. We don’t claim to the voice of moral authority for anyone, we call it as we see it no matter where we see, if you’ve read rpp for a while then you already know that.
Do dispense with the allusions and tell us who you are talking about & really the holy diet plan just sounds stupid, what is it locust and honey all round?
Michael,
The Garden of Emuna brings the teachings of Rabbi Nachman of Breslev to everyone, very easy to read and understand and life changing.
In Forest fields teaches how to come closer to G-d using prayer, Teshuva and self accounting.
The Garden of Peace helps those who are having marriage difficulties to repair tikkun.
You obviously haven’t read the teachings of Rabbi Arush.
Joseph,
It is not about money, like the evangelists: The teachings of Rabbi Nachman of Breslev are priceless.
Rabbi Arush lives Emuna.
“The teachings of Rabbi Nachman of Breslev are priceless.”
And the teachings of Rabbi Arush are pricey.
… I bought the Garden of Emuna for a good price at breslev.co.il and I love it!
Joseph,
The merit for spreading Emuna is free.
Rabbi Shalom Arush, who is a Pious TzaddikIm, only asks that a person returns what the eternal king has given for safe keeping.
Arush is a”Pious Tzaddikim” – now are you claiming he is a triune !
Gev,
Everything comes from G-d, nothing belongs to us, life, talents, income ; All part of G-d’s unity.
A tzaddikim has no evil inclination therefore can’t lie.
If a person decides to purchase the CD’s and distribute them, then G-d gave them the money to fulfill the Mitzvah of spreading Emuna in the world.
No change, I had tried setting up a different account at a one point. Actually I posted as “michael w” in an compromise to not reveal my name but at the same time identify myself as something more than all the other jolly three and four letter handles used on blogs like this one, an effort at being more transparent and sincere. In saying that thanks by the way for using that part of my email address that has my full name, despite the guarantee that potential posters are given that their email won’t be published.
Sorry Gev, any thought I might have of actually trying to be sincere or non-confrontational with you seems to be inconsequential if you aren’t even prepared to extend what would seem to be a very simple internet courtesy, and quite frankly by revealing my full name (which bothers me more than just a bit) would seem to be breaking your own privacy guarantee.
Wonder if a complaint would even make a difference??
ok, fair ‘nuf michael, however what full name anyone can see that by clicking on or mousing over your gravatar hovercard (both this new one and the other one). You made that public not me!
Rabbi Arush and the miracle CDs….THIS IS A THE CLOSEST THING TO A MIRACLE…AFTER CLAIMING THAT Rabbi Schneerson was the Messiah.
Why not go back to our book….? IT IS very sad how some think they know more than the Jewish Scriptures and Messiah Jesus! DO YOU CARE WHERE YOU WILL BE FOREVER?
WHY PROMISE SALVATION APART FROM OUR SCRIPTURES…
Jeremiah says we will find G-d when we search with all our heart…
I am born a Jew and rejected hell and messiah Jesus too. Yet both are in the Jewish Scriptures….Isaiah 9:6 “Unto us a child will be born, a son given, mighty God, …the prince of peace.
Isaiah 52 &53 He will be exalted but first marred more than any man. He will be rejected and lay down his life as our sacrificial lamb.
HELL = Daniel 12:2 “Many shall awake to everlasting abhorance and many to everlasting abhorance.
MESSIAH JESUS SAID, when we reject the joy of his salvation and the promise of heaven “in hell where you will be weeping forever with gnashing teeth” Matthew 24:51st verse
I GOT TRUE SALVATION…I prayed Messiah’s words…where he says he knocks on our heart door to come in forgive sin and be our friend….
“Help me know the truth HaShem/the name, and i started looking with an open heart….
when i learned the truth i prayed
“Help me Messiah Yeshua/Hebrew for Jesus, I am sorry for my sins, come into my heart and be my best friend, amen.” and it worked as promised in Revelation 3:19&20th verses
no,. actually that gravatar I set up a long time ago when I was registering on another blog. I am actually a little puzzled why it has suddenly popped back spontaneously into use, If you click on it , it does not indicate my name, only the user name “goytoshav” which I registered at that time.
Damage is done though, isn’t it…..no crying over spilled milk. I have to say its a little freeing to not hide behind a user name
well it is still here mouse over the hovercard and you’ll see the name has always been there! http://roshpinaproject.com/2011/05/23/african-american-gangster-convert-to-judaism-aims-for-knesset-election/#comment-22346
Ok I see you have seemed to change all that now.
wow, do i feel like the guy with milk all over my face. Gev please accept my apologies, really and sincerely. Clicking on that avatar did reveal exactly that information. “kindly engage brain before placing mouth-or keyboard–in gear”.
Ah well, it still feels good using my whole name!!!
no worries mate
“Why not go back to our book….? IT IS very sad how some think they know more than the Jewish Scriptures and Messiah Jesus! DO YOU CARE WHERE YOU WILL BE FOREVER?
WHY PROMISE SALVATION APART FROM OUR SCRIPTURES…”
David7israel,
That is entirely the point though, isn’t it. He is Messiah in your eyes, not Jewish eyes.The interpretations that you use to arrive at “j” in the scriptures are not Jewish interpretations…period. The prophets which you emphatically insist speak so clearly of “j”, speak in a far different voice to Jewish ears. Ears and eyes that are not “blinded” as christian doctrine and dogma have screamed for the last two millenia, but ears and eyes that have the gift of a communal, national revelation of the Holy One of Israel at Sinai . Yes we can debate scripture ad nauseum and yes we can do this dance all day and all night, all live all the time–and that will not make the idea of worshiping G-d in man’s form any more Jewish than a fried bacon sandwich.
“OUR SCRIPTURES” if they include the NT are not “Jewish” scriptures, they are christian scriptures (respectfully, I spelled the word out, I’m trying). As such, they are given NO WEIGHT (hey , you were using caps as well, right???). HaMoshiach is the most profoundly Jewish concept there is. Yet Jews know that when Moshiach comes he will be a servant, a tool of G-d, not a partner or a form of G-d. Period!!! He will not be an object of worship. He will do remarkable things and by these things his pedigree of Moshiach will be established. Most importantly, at some time after his arrival, because Messiah will be a man…he will die. And Jews are “good” with that!!!
“IT IS very sad how some think they know more than the Jewish Scriptures and Messiah Jesus”–I am not going to get into a polemic over who knows more than who. Suffice it to say that Jews do not, repeat do not believe that “J” is Messiah. therefore there is no mandate or expectation to accept anything in that corpus of writings which christians revere. Yes, I do believe the sages of blessed memory certainly do carry as much weight as one individual who lived on the Galil shore two thousand years ago. The weight and bulk and depth of study of all those blessed voices of time past line up, follow and amplify the underlying theme of the Shema. Despite attempts online by various groups to demonize the the sages and their efforts , those poseks spent their lives and energies and neshamas putting Torah miSinai into workable terms…they all point in the same direction. NO detractors, no deviants…any who did, well those voices are long silent and are given minimal if any weight or authority inside of Judaism proper.
By all means follow your christ, put him up on a cross, sing great songs about him on Sunday morning, make any number of prayers to him that you want too…be well!!!
But leave Judaism to Jews…please. Leave christ outside of that. Let Jews be Jews. Let us practice our faith , demonstrate that action and mutual respect will flow like water down hill.
Gev,
Michael was trying to change his identity because he had no answer to my challenge in the thread you linked.
This guy is good in cheating not in biblical knowledge. Did you think you could get away with this?
“But leave Judaism to Jews”
I suggest you do the same, now that we know you are a cheat…..
actually Dan I think changing my identity would be demonstrated by coming on here and referring to myself as “Dan Benzvi”.( a stretch I know) I l think most people would call what I did “revealing my identity”. By the way, Gev, my apologies if that caused anyone to feel that I was acting in anyway “below the Board” or deceptive. Appearances are everything, aren’t they??
With regards to your comments Dan, quite honestly I forget. As I indicated in my last post to you, I have a life outside of RPP. That was a Thursday night, my wife was getting groceries for Shabbos, I was watching my 9 month old.
I f you want , we can address that issue back on the other thread. Although Dan I am not sure why.
“This guy is good in cheating not in biblical knowledge. Did you think you could get away with this?”
Everything about you is confrontational, you go immediately for jugular, for the emotional appeal. You are not so concerned with actually hearing an opposing opinion in order to better understand, rather looking for ways to demonize and minimize your opponent.
Oh look at that, its Friday afternoon, and I need to get ready for Shabbos!!
No Dan ,as I said, I have a life…right now that life calls. Quite honestly preparing for Shabbos is a much more enticing offer than spending my afternoon with…you.
Michael,
In the post a previous post you said ” I should clarify, I wrote”
You then went on to make some really bold statements about Breslev Rabbi’s
As you are Torah observant I feel you must Justify your claims.
“You are not so concerned with actually hearing an opposing opinion in order to better understand, rather looking for ways to demonize and minimize your opponent.”
Why should I be concerned? You have not given any opposing opinion, did you? I am still waiting….And the bit of waiting for Shabbat…Oh, well, this is the third Shabbat and I am still waiting…….
get used to your disappointment!!!
No answer yet Hah? Shall I hold my breath?
You can download the english translation of some of Rabbi Arush’s cds free of charge here: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/Author.aspx/4130
Hey Ploni, this link is not quite as you indicate, this links to Lazer Brody’s profile but not to downloaded translations of Rabbi Arush.
Gev,
Rabbi Brody translates the Torah of Rabbi Arush.
Rabbi Arush teaches the simplest way to love G-d, Gratitude.
The teachings of Rabbi Arush have had a profound effect on me.
His books and cd’s have opened the beauty of the world through Judaism.
The Jewish people have a jewel in Rabbi Arush. I’m in awe of his teachings even though I’m not Jewish.
Learning Emuna is the greatest blessing, learning that Hashem is good and does good, learning that it is only my limited intellect that makes things “seem bad”, learning the truth I’ve been searching for all my life.
Gev, I respect you and hold you in high esteem as I do all Jewish people but you are mistaken about Rabbi Arush’s intentions in your original article.
Dear Steve, I am Messianic, and I have read practically all the books of Rav Shalom Arush. I can tell you that everything he teaches was already taught by the puritans in England in the 17th century. Check the books on divine providence by th puritans, and you might want to check the books of Thomas Watson in particular “All things for good”.
Sid, I do believe that the Torah and its teachings predate the
Puritans as well as Thomas Watson!
Hi Bubby. Of course. But who says that we reject Torah ?????? Christianity is built on Torah. Everyting that Breslev teaches has already been taught by Christianty before Rabbi Nachman even appeared. The concept that everything is guided by divine providence and everything works for good is taught by the New Testament and the Apostle Paul as well which is ultimately based on the Torah. The only difference is that Orthodox Judaism teaches reincarnation as the way to salvation. The books of Breslev and Rav Shalom Arush teach that reincarnation is the method God uses to finally grant salvation to mankind. People should go through countless reincarnations to finally “merit” salvation. The Christians and specifically the Puritans teach that God’s method of salvation is by substitutionary atonement as a “FREE GIFT” and focuses on the resurrection not on reincarnation. Judaism teaches that one has to build up “merits” in order to “deserve” salvation, and this is achieved through countless cycles of reincarnations, until one finally achieves perfection. Christianity only reiterates that God provided that substitutionary atonement and we recieve salvation as a FREE GIFT, through faith, not through any merit of ours, hence the concept of countless reincarnations becomes obsolete.