Sabbatai Zevi was a rabbi from Ismir who declared himself Messiah aged 22. Zevi’s father was a tradesman who met with English Protestants who were convinced that the apocalypse would come about in 1666, due to the number 666 featured in Revelation. An apocalyptic fervour was sweeping across Protestant Europe, and it infected the Jews too. Zevi was a rabbi who taught the Zohar in his city of Ismir (modern day Smyrna), in the Ottoman Empire (modern day Turkey).
Zevi was sent as an emissary to Egypt on behalf of the community in Ismir, but he stopped off in Ottoman Palestine and met a rabbi called Nathan from Gaza, who was convinced that Zevi was the Messiah. Nathan proclaimed Zevi to be Moshiach, and soon all of the Jewish Diaspora, from London to Amsterdam to Yemen, believed in Zevi. Zevi would in time declare himself to be ‘The Lord Your God, Shabbatai Zevi.’ He even introduced his name into the prayers, so that his followers would now pray to Zevi instead of to the Ottoman sultan. Nathan of Gaza made fantastical prophecies about Zevi that within years he would begin his earthly mission and would become the King of the Ottoman Empire before eventually entering into Jerusalem to become king of Israel.
Naturally, this activity attracted the attention of the Ottoman Sultan who gave Zevi a choice, to be beheaded or to convert to Islam, and convert his followers too. Zevi chose conversion, and his followers were astounded. Some even tried to rationalise his conversion to Islam as a “holy apostasy”, and many continued to worship him regardless, forming a new religion known as Donmeh. They cried out in Ladino Esperamos a ti, Sabbatai Zevi, which translates as ‘We hope/wait for you, Sabbatai Zevi’.
Image depicts Sabbatai Zevi crowned on high
For those of us interested in those who reflect God’s love towards us, Zevi was not the man you would want to trust as Messiah. The famous Jewish intellectual Gerschom Scholem described Zevi’s fragmented mental state. He was self-obsessed and narcissistic, and would frequently appeared delirious. Would you like to hang around someone who constantly talked about himself?
Children in his home town laughed at him when he came back to Ismir calling himself Messiah, they taunted him singing “You left as a shaliach and came back as mashiach!” No-one had taken Zevi seriously until he met Nathan of Gaza. Zevi was a bad father, he was convinced his 3-year old son was the Suffering Servant of Israel who complemented his own messianic mission, and was obsessed with the role of his son in making him King of Israel, rather than looking after him.
Zevi once had a wedding ceremony where he married the Torah. Zevi was also very sexually immoral, organising orgies. He claimed this was liberating for women. He even claimed that through sin and wrong deeds, you could heal the world, and so deliberately sinned and revelled in his actions.
Well, to put it simply, Sabbatai Zevi is not someone I’d like to spend much time around. I wouldn’t want to go for a meal with him or be his work colleague. I wouldn’t introduce him to any of my female relatives. I definitely wouldn’t want him to be my father, and I most certainly wouldn’t want him to be my Messiah!
The true Messiah is able to overcome the kingdoms of this world. With this in mind, we turn to the second temptation of Yeshua:
The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. And he said to him, “I will give you all their authority and splendor, for it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. So if you worship me, it will all be yours.”
Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.’”
The second temptation was that, if Yeshua would worship Satan, then all the earth would be his, and all the kingdoms of the world. Yeshua refused this, saying that only God is to be worshipped, and only God is to be served. Yeshua’s response to Satan’s temptations reveal how unique he was, and how he has no rivals. Yet there Satan’s temptations have been repeated throughout history by religious systems. Religion have tried to control their followers by any means possible, and constrict them to their worldview, rather than let them be influenced by God and Yeshua.
If you who like Russian literature, in Fyodor Dostoevsky’s Brothers Karamazov there’s a particularly harrowing chapter entitled The Grand Inquisitor, in which Jesus visits Spain, and gets arrested by the Inquisition. The Grand Inquisitor explains to Yeshua that the Church no longer needs him, as the Church has control of the masses, and won’t let them access Yeshua.
Just as with organised Christianity as with organised Judaism, most religions would rather protect their worldview than face up to the truth. Islam is another example: Mohammed spread Islam via the sword, and Islam became the religion of governors. When Shabbatai Zevi was faced with the choice of death or converting to Islam, what did he do? He chose Islam, plunging his followers into crisis.
Sabbatai Zevi did what Yeshua refused to do.
If Yeshua had accepted Satan’s wish, he would have been at peace in Israel, and no-one would have harmed him. But where Yeshua refused to submit, Zevi acquiesced. He abandoned his messianic mission and carried on for another ten years as a convert to Islam. Whilst Yeshua was concerned with fulfilling his spiritual mission, Zevi was obsessed with obtaining a physical kingdom, and dreamed of the day where he would rule Turkey, Israel and the world.
Whilst Zevi abandoned his principles for security, Yeshua went to the cross and died to redeem the world, as he knew he had to.
Conclusion: Zevi bowed down and submitted to the established kingdom of his day, in order to avoid death.
Yeshua resisted the compulsions of the established kingdoms of his day, and went obediently to his death.
In this way, Yeshua is greater than Zevi.
Tzvi was much greater.
First, we are certain Tzvi existed, there are many non-Jewish sources for him.
Second, he had a much larger following in his lifetime.
Third, he was able to attract people of all classes.
Fourth, he died in his bed.
Moshe, what do you think of the Virgin Birth?
I ask because if you’re not impressed with the idea of the Holy Spirit bringing about Mary’s conception in Luke’s gospel, I doubt you’ll be too impressed with Sabbatean prophecy either.
This is from Freely’s biography (pp.15-16):
Its last paragraph [of the Vision of R. Abraham, which appears to have been forged by Nathan of Gaza] mentions Isaac di Alba, and goes on to tell of the sexual torments that will be endured by the young Messiah [Sabbatai Zevi]. According to Rabbi Abraham, the first of these erotic traumas will literally brand him: ‘When he is six the Shekhinah, which has revealed herself to us, will appear to him in a dream as a flame, and cause a burn on his private parts, but he shall not tell anybody.
Third, he was able to attract people of all classes.
Yeshua had followers ranging from outcast Samaritan women to established Sanhedrin councillors!
“If JC would worship Satan, then all the earth would be his, and all the kingdoms of the world.”
This has got to be one of the most ridiculous claims of xtrians. Why? How could “god” worship himself, much less anything other than himself (like his own creations)? If xtrians and MJ’s believe JC is divine, how can they even think he’d succumb to worshiping satan?
What merit is for “god” to overcome this “temptation”? Would anyone in their right mind be tempted to bathe in feces? In the same way, we shouldn’t expect JC (a semi-god) to be tempted to worship his own creation just as we don’t expect him to be tempted to worship us
Common people, wake up!
“How could “god” worship himself”
People worship themselves all the time – it’s called narcissism. However, the divine Mashiach, being the Word [Torah] of G-d sent by G-d here to dwell among men in the flesh, was a perfect Jew in every way. Besides being a Redeemer promised to Israel, he was sent to be an example for Jews to follow, including of true worship, in spirit and truth. Just because you rejected this truth, Nosson, doesn’t mean that the rest of us will follow you like lemmings off the cliff into eternal judgment of HaShem.
Gene,
["the divine Mashiach, being the Word [Torah] of G-d sent by G-d here to dwell among men in the flesh…Besides being a Redeemer promised to Israel”]
This statement has no basis in JEWISH scripture. If you want to call him the JEWISH messiah, than I suggest you state the JEWISH qualifications of messiah; not pagan-gentile ones.
1) He should be a descendant of David (Psalms 89:34), through Solomon (1 Chronicles 22:10)
JC does not fit this very first requirement as he is “not a physical descendant of Joseph”; thereby disqualifying his as messiah.
Even if you say he is the son of Joseph (which makes more sense), he comes from a cursed lineage Jeremiah 22:30, where Hashem cursed Jeconiah and his seed from ever sitting on the throne of David.
Matthew 1:1 states that Joseph’s genealogy includes the cursed Jeconiah.
I don’t know what believers in JC don’t understand about this “clear as water” requirement for being the messiah, which JC did not have. This is the foundation and without it, anything else you tack on him (miracle worker, healer, walked on water, etc.) is irrelevant. He doesn’t fit the basic requirement.
It’s like a great man and leader wants to be president, but he was born in France. Even if he came to the US when we was 1 day-old, he can’t be president if he doesn’t have this basic requirement.
Summary:
1) JC is not David’s descendant according to xtrianity, therefore disqualified from being the messiah
2) Even if you believe he’s Joseph’s descendant (not a divine being), he’s still disqualified as he’s from a cursed lineage.
What part of this don’t you understand? Can I be any clearer? These are not my ideas, this is undeniable facts BASED ON SCRIPTURE!!
God overturned the curse of Jeconiah in the book of Zechariah.
Does anyone have a reply to this post?
http://roshpinaproject.wordpress.com/2010/02/18/sabbatai-zevi-the-second-temptation-of-yeshua/#comment-7790
Please prove this. Please show me where any on Jeconiah’s children sat on the throne of David as KING.
Joseph, are you reading the same scripture that I’m reading?
Jeremiah 22:24 says “As I live, says the Lord”. G-d is ETERNAL; therefore the curse is ETERNAL and He won’t (and didn’t) go back on His word. It’s ETERNAL!!
Plus, you have another problem. G-d made an ETERNAL covenant with David that through him all future kings of Israel will descend.
Psalms 89:34-36 “My covenant I WILL NOT BREAK, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I SWORN BY MY HOLINESS. His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.”
G-d has made it very clear that through David, kings will rule. If so, how is it that He “broke” his promise by fathering JC instead of Joseph, a descendant of David?
Please explain this!!
Nosson, God is in Heaven, he can do whatever he pleases.
Nosson, nice try – except that we can read in Haggai 2:23 that G-d has obviously reversed the curse, since he has chosen Zerubbabel, son of Shealtiel, son of Jeconiah, as his “signet ring.” (sign of monarchy):
“”‘On that day,’ declares the L-RD Almighty, ‘I will take you, my servant Zerubbabel son of Shealtiel,’ declares the L-RD, ‘and I will make you like my signet ring, for I have chosen you,’ declares the L-RD Almighty.”
– Haggai 2:23″
Gene, sorry buddy, but nice try yourself.
Zerubbabel was never a KING, he was a governor/ruler, but not KING.
Again, if we are to accept your response (Haggai 2:23), then how do you respond to the beginning words of Jeconiah’s curse in Jeremiah 22:24? It states “As I live, says the Lord”. G-d is ETERNAL; therefore the curse is ETERNAL and He won’t (and didn’t) go back on His word. It’s ETERNAL!!
Nice try, Gene, but “the Torah of the Hashem is perfect…” (Psalm 19:7)
“therefore the curse is ETERNAL and He won’t (and didn’t) go back on His word. It’s ETERNAL!!”
Nosson, you forget that our G-d is a compassionate G-d. Remember how He gave Hezekiah an extra 15 years to live after the king prayed, even after G-d had declared to him through a prophet Isaiah in 2 Kings 20:1-3 that “Thus saith The L-rd, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live.”?
It’s a bit like how God said the Torah was eternal, then upgraded it to Moshiach’s Torah.
He had mercy on us and released us from the yoke of compulsory Torah-observance.
From Chazak:
http://www.messianicart.com/chazak/yeshua/jeconiah.htm
“The Jewish Encyclopedia says, not only was the curse revoked, but that Jeconiah was the ancestor of the Messiah!
“”Jehoiachin’s sad experiences changed his nature entirely, and as he repented of the sins which he had committed as king he was pardoned by God, who revoked the decree to the effect that none of his descendants should ever become king (Jer. xxii. 30; Pesi., ed. Buber, xxv. 163a, b); he even became the ancestor of the Messiah (Tan., Toledot, 20 [ed. Buber, i. 140])”
Jewish Encyclopedia, Entry on Jehoiachin2 “
“He had mercy on us and released us from the yoke of compulsory Torah-observance.”
Except Joe that G-d never said anything about it to anyone, but sent his Messiah to say the opposite:
Matthew 5:19
“Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”
““He had mercy on us and released us from the yoke of compulsory Torah-observance.”
You equate G-d’s Torah with a curse. Shame on you, Joe!
If G-d’s Torah was a curse, would David say the following?
“I remember your ancient laws, O LORD, and I find comfort in them.”
or
“Your statutes are my heritage forever; they are the joy of my heart. ”
(Psalm 119)
Who finds comfort and joy in burdens and curses? Something is seriously wrong with your view of Torah.
Gene, what is the difference between:
“He had mercy on us and released us from the yoke of compulsory Torah-observance.”
and
“Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear?”
???
Israel has been rebellious and sinful, and constantly violated G-d’s commandments (read the prophets). So, in that sense they have no been able to bear the yoke of Torah. However, it remains G-d’s standard for the Jewish people and we read in Acts 26 that first Jewish believers were still expected to obey Torah AFTER Peter uttered those words in Acts 15.
Yeshua own yoke can also be considered an unbearable burden if we are to judge it or discard based on whether or not it too is impossible to keep perfectly or if it’s easy to practice in real life: “to love one another as I loved you and to love G-d with all of your heart.”
Gene, did you forget about “The remnant of Israel [that] will do no wrong; [and that] they will speak no lies, nor will deceit be found in their mouths.” (Zephaniah 3:13)?
Yes, Am Israel as a whole has sinned, but there is always a “remnant of Israel” – the Torah-observant Jews. Which by the way, are the “suffering servant” of Isaiah 53. They suffered and are suffering for the world’s sins. Read it again, from a JEWISH PERSPECTIVE of course.
Joseph, you said ["Nosson, God is in Heaven, he can do whatever he pleases."]
Yes, this is true, but it’s not to be taken literally. Because even though He can lie and sin (He can do everything), He won’t. Not because He can’t, because it’s not His nature.
In the same way, He won’t go back on His word. Not because He can’t, because it’s not His nature.
If He did, what kind of god would that be? A god that promises one thing, and then renigs?
What you’re saying is completely absurd!
In the same way, He won’t go back on His word. Not because He can’t, because it’s not His nature.
So why didn’t Abraham obey God’s command to kill Isaac?
Joseph, you’re so misinformed.
It is written (Genesis 22:1) “Some time later G-d TESTED Abraham.”
It was a TEST to see if Abraham would obey him, not to actually sacrifice his son! G-d did not intend for Abraham to do so, and this is why he told him (Genesis 22:12 “Now I know that you fear G-d”
So can’t the curse on Jeconiah be a test?
God can pronounce judgement knowing that it will lead to repentance in many cases: that’s the entire point of Torah.
No, it wasn’t a test. Again, for the (I don’t know how many)ieth time:
NONE OF JECONIAH’S DESCENDANTS EVER SAT OR WILL SIT ON KING DAVID’S THRONE AS KING.
If you find one of his descendants who sat as KING (and bring proof text), please let me know. Otherwise, we must believe it’s ETERNAL; again, disqualifying JC from messiahship.
It is safe to say that from everyone’s “convenient silence” that JC is disqualified from messiahship?
Has anyone got something about JC’s genealogy?
Gene, I haven’t forgotten that G-d is compassionate, from personal experience. The very proof of this is that he allowed Zerubbabel to be a ruler. However, the problem is that none of Jeconiah’s children (including Zerubbabel) sat on the throne as KING.
Unless, you can somehow show me that one of his descendants sat on the throne as KING, the curse stands and therefore, disqualifies JC from sitting on the throne/from being messiah.
Unless, you can somehow show me that one of his descendants sat on the throne as KING, the curse stands and therefore, disqualifies JC from sitting on the throne/from being messiah.
Just gonna throw this one out there, but where is the evidence that the Saba, the Rebbe or Na-Na-Nachman have royal ancestry? Can their claims be discredited just because you can’t prove they were descended from Jeconiah? Plus a lot of Breslovers believe in Moshe Mashiach, how can Moshe be a descendant of Jeconiah?! Would you dismiss their claims as readily as you dismiss Yeshua’s?
Yeshua is the first king after Jeconiah from his line, what’s the problem with this!
Joseph, how do you know that any of the tzaddikim you just mentioned aren’t descendants of King David?
Just so you’re informed, Breslovers don’t believe in a particular person as a moshiach. Rabbi Nachman’s teachings are “out of this world” amazing! The concept of Moshe-Mashiach is about a soul, not a person. It is known (in Jewish tradition) that the soul of Moshe and Moshiach is the same soul.
The gematria of Moshe and Shiloh (Genesis 49:10) is 345.
Joseph, how do you know that any of the tzaddikim you just mentioned aren’t descendants of King David?
I don’t, but you’re asking me to prove Jesus’ royal bloodline before you’ll consider him as a messianic candidate.
Then with the other guys, you’re saying the complete opposite: until someone disproves them, they are potential candidates.
["It’s a bit like how God said the Torah was eternal, then upgraded it to Moshiach’s Torah. He had mercy on us and released us from the yoke of compulsory Torah-observance."]
Joseph, nice try, but please bring proof text for this outrageous statement. The Torah maybe a “burden” to you and all other MJ’s, but that’s not what our sages say. Keep in mind that the Tanach clearly states how G-d spoke to these great men:
Proverbs 3:18 “She (the Torah) is a TREE OF LIFE to those who embrace her; those who lay hold of her will be blessed.
Psalm 19:7 “The Torah of the Lord is perfect, reviving the soul. The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy, making wise the simple.”
——————
Or should we believe what Paul said:
Galatians 3:10 “All who rely on observing the law are under a curse…”
Galatians 3:13 “JC redeemed us from the curse of the law…”
It’s interesting to note that Paul’s hebrew name (RAv SHAul) is an acronym for RASHA (an evil person).
It’s interesting to note that Paul’s hebrew name (RAv SHAul) is an acronym for RASHA (an evil person).
It’s also interesting to note that Nosson is a mnemonic
We should believe Paul, definitely. He received the bat qol just as Avraham Avinu did.
Wasn’t Bilaam a prophet in the level of Moses? Are we going to put our eternity at stake based on Paul’s “bat kol”? If this “bat kol” goes against Torah and everything it teaches, then NO, we are not allowed to follow it.
Deuteronomy 13:1 “If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” YOU MUST NOT LISTEN TO THE WORDS OF THAT PROPHET or dreamer. The Lord your G-d is TESTING you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. It is the Lord your G-d you MUST FOLLOW, and him you must revere. KEEP HIS COMMANDS AND OBEY HIM…”
Joseph, I’m just saying that based on the genealogy provided in the NT, JC is disqualified to be the messiah. Let’s not involve any other groups here, we’re talking about JC, not anyone else. This is just a weak attempt on your part to “turn the tables” and divert attention to the real topic at hand which is:
JC and his genealogy, and how according to the NT, he’s disqualified from being the messiah.
Nosson, if JC is not qualified and we know that the Messiah should come from David’s line, then who would be qualified?
So how are we going to interpret this teaching:
Pesikta Rabbati says:
“R. Joshua ben Levi, however, argued as follows: Repentance sets aside the entire decree, and prayer half the decree. You find that it was so with Jeconiah, king of Judah. For the Holy One, blessed be He, swore in His anger, As I live, saith the Lord, though Coniah the son of Jehoiakhim king of Judah were the signet on a hand, yet by My right – note, as R. Meir said, that is was by His right hand that God swore – I would pluck thee hence (Jer. 22:24). And what was decreed against Jeconiah? That he die childless. As is said Write ye this man childless (Jer. 22:40). But as soon as he avowed penitence, the Holy One, blessed be He, set aside the decree, as is shown by Scripture’s reference to The sons of Jeconiah – the same is Assir – Shealtiel his son, etc. (1 Chron 3:17). And Scripture says further: In that day . . . will I take thee, O Zerubbabel . . . the son of Shealtiel . . . and will make thee as a signet (Haggai 2:23). Behold, then, how penitence can set aside the entire decree!
Pesikta Rabbati, Piska 47, translated by William G. Braude, Yale University Press, pg. 797-798
The Jewish Encyclopedia says, not only was the curse revoked, but that Jeconiah was the ancestor of the Messiah!
“”Jehoiachin’s sad experiences changed his nature entirely, and as he repented of the sins which he had committed as king he was pardoned by God, who revoked the decree to the effect that none of his descendants should ever become king (Jer. xxii. 30; Pesi., ed. Buber, xxv. 163a, b); he even became the ancestor of the Messiah (Tan., Toledot, 20 [ed. Buber, i. 140])”
Jewish Encyclopedia, Entry on Jehoiachin2
Try this site: http://www.doxa.ws/Messiah/Curse_Naz.html
Sources stating that the Messiah will descend from Jeconiah.
Tanhuma Genesis, Toledot (8th-9th c.)
“Scripture alludes here to the verse Who art thou, O great mountain before Zerubbabel? Thou shalt become a plain (Zech. 4:7). This verse refers to the Messiah, the descendant of David. . . .From whom will the Messiah descend? From Zerubbabel.”
–Midrash Tanhuma-Yelammedenu, translated by Samuel A. Berman (Hoboken, NJ: Ktav, 1996), p. 182.
———————————————————————— Rabbi A. J. Rosenberg on Jeremiah 22:24 (20th c.)
“Malbim calls to our attention that in the prophecy of Haggai (2:23), God says, “On that day I will take you, Zerubbabel, and I will make you like a signet,” for the King Messiah will be like a signet ring on God’s right hand, so to speak. Just as the name of the owner of the ring is engraved on his signet ring, through which he makes himself known, so will God’s name be known in the world through the King Messiah, through whom His miracles will be known. He says here that, though, in the future, Coniah will be the signet on My right hand, for the Messiah will spring from his seed, now I will remove him from there.”
–Ibid., p. 183. Malbim is an acronym for Meir Loeb ben Jehiel Michale, a 19th c. rabbi and commentator. 22:24.
———————————————————————— Jewish Encyclopedia
“Jehoiachin’s sad experiences changed his nature entirely, and as he repented of the sins which he had committed as king he was pardoned by God, who revoked the decree to the effect that none of his descendants should ever become king (Jer. xxii.30; Pesik., ed. Buber, xxv. 163a, b): he even became the ancestor of the Messiah”
(Tan., Toledot, 20 [ed. Buber, i. 140]).–Louis Ginzberg, “Jehoiachin,” vol. 7 p. 84.
Frum Goy….jeconniah’s curse has no regard to Jesus because Jesus never served in any position of authority.
Of course since He would come twice. The first is to teach us how to be pious observants of the Teachings of Moshe (“Love the L’rd your G’d with all your heart, mind and strength and to love your neighbor as you love yourself”) and to die as our atonement and become our salvation or Yeshua-Savior (read Isaiah 62:11 for this). The evidence for Him becoming our sin and guilt offering is when the scarlet thread would not become white for 40 years before 70 CE (70 [years after] Christ [was] Exposed) every Yom Kippur, read Yoma 39b for this extra NT evidence for JC’s case. We all know that he died on 30 CE (30 Christ Exposed). Well, Daniel said [if you know this] that the Messiah should come before the Temple is destroyed. He had come already. The Jews just missed Him. One of the reasons that G’d allowed the Temple to be destroyed was because the Jews hate their brothers and of course G’d without cause (hating your neighbor is hating G’d). They loved the Notzrim (Keepers of the Truth) be destroyed.
Moshe, Yeshua (Jesus) grew up as a carpenter in his early life, but also as a Rabbi and a teacher, for me, he had a wide range of skills that enabled him to be Moshiach as promised in Isaiah and Zechariah, and other places. Other skills he had was the authority to cast out demons, heal the sick and raise the dead, he also was able to sort out disputes between neighbours, and was blunt enough to expose and rebuke the corrupt (and kicking out hawkers out of the temple) and be a friend to those who were unpopular, ie: tax collectors.
Where does the bible list miracle performances as being indicators that someone is the messiah?
That’s a good question, Moshe. Torah tells us that G-d will raise up a prophet like Moshe: “The L-RD your G-d will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brothers – it is to him you shall listen.” – Deut.18:15
Clearly, Moshe performed miracles. Would his successor not do the same?
A few observations:
1. Deut. 18:15 is not a messianic prophesy! It is Moses’ instruction to the Jews to heed his successor Joshua.
2. The Jewish Bible’s messianic prophecy does not mention that the messiah will be able to perform miracles, but the Jewish Bible links miracle performances with a range of figures, from Egyptian sorcerers to Elisha, none of whom the Bible claims were the messiah.
3. The Jewish Bible’s messianic prophecy does mention that the messiah will be patrilineally Davidic.
4. The Christian “new testament” hypes Jesus’ supposed miracle performances as proof of his messiahship, which, as we know from the Jewish Bible, would absolutely not establish Jesus’ messiahship credentials in the least even if the Christian accounts of Jesus’ vast miracle-working career had contained a shred of truth.*
5. The Christian “new testament” goes out of its way to regale us with two mutually exclusive, detailed ancestries that make clear Jesus’ inventors didn’t agree which generation their miracle-working character lived in, and the only thing the two heritage narratives agree on is that Jesus had a paternal pedigree deficit entirely inconsistent with messiahship as defined by the Jewish Bible.
*To be expounded in a future posting.
Goyish, there is no death or resurrection referenced in Isaiah 62. Second, anything about a thread turning/not turning colors only pertained to that year, and had nothing to do with anything before/after that. Third, no one is sure when Jesus died, or was born. Fourth, Daniel never said such a thing.
1)Ok Moshe, you are right there in Isaiah 62 about death and resurrection. But it clearly talks about a person named Salvation whose function is to save and is being addressed by the Hebrew Bible in capitalized His and Him (pronouns reserved for divinity). And clearly not just an abstract noun. Here is from the Hebrew – English Bible JPS 1917 Ed.: “Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the earth: say ye to the daughter of Zion: ‘Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, His reward is with Him, and His recompense before Him.’” Is. 62:11. The L’rd is talking here about this not-an-abstract-noun ‘salvation’. The L’rd addressed Him in big Him and His. Will you translate salvation in Hebrew? That just sounds like J’s name. Yes, I admit I am wrong with the verse pertaining to death and resurrection. But for me this talks about Him and His function.
2)Concerning the scarlet thread not turning white? Well, it is not just one year or “only pertained to that year”. You are clearly showing that you are not reading your Talmud. We are on the same level now. To put it here:
“19 Our Rabbis taught: During the last forty years before the destruction of the Temple the lot [‘For the Lord’] did not come up in the right hand; nor did the crimson-coloured strap become white; nor did the westernmost light shine; and the doors of the Hekal [Temple] would open by themselves, until R. Johanan b. Zakkai rebuked them, saying: Hekal, Hekal, why wilt thou be the alarmer thyself?20 I know about thee that thou wilt be destroyed, for Zechariah ben Ido has already prophesied concerning thee:21 Open thy doors, O Lebanon, that the fire may devour thy cedars.22″ – BABYLONIAN TALMUD – MAS. YOMA 39b
RPP guys, do you think we do not know when Jesus died? He died at around 30 CE (+/- 2 years). Well, that is not far. That is what we call precision. All scholars would say he died at around 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, or 33 CE. Take the average, that would be 30.5 CE. So, 70 – 40 = 30. After He died all sacrifices every Yom Kpr became meaningless for 40 straight years!
***When did the 14th of Nisan fall on a Thursday night / Friday combination? Possibly in 27 AD, 30 AD, or 33 AD. A computer might help you traced it back.
3) When Jesus was born? I have this cut and pasted:
The account in Luke 2:2 mentions a tax made when Cyrenius became governor of Syria in 6-7 CE. If Jesus started preaching at age thirty and preached for three years, then he must have died around CE 40 or later. This is problematic.
The difficulties once associated with the issue of Cyrenius (whose full name was Publius Silpicius Quirinus) have been RESOLVED by the discovery that he was TWICE governor of Syria. The first census mentioned by Luke occurred during this first period in office from 4BC to AD 1. As it is possible to fix the death of Herod fairly accurately due to a lunar eclipse which occurred then plus the passover date that year of March 13, it is also possible to assert that Jesus was born at least several months prior to that. This all has a bearing on the suggested date of his death.
Phlegon, as quoted by Origen referred to the darkness that occurred at the time of Jesus’ death as having taken place in the 19th year of Tiberius and the fourth year of the 202nd Olympiad. This is 33 AD.
Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/In_what_year_did_Jesus_die#ixzz1h07y9v2q
4) Did Daniel never said a thing that the Messiah should come before the Temple is destroyed? well, what about this:
Daniel 9 Hebrew-English (Masoretic) JPS 1917 Ed.
25 Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem unto one anointed, a prince, shall be seven weeks; and for threescore and two weeks, it shall be built again, with broad place and moat, but in troublous times.
26And after the threescore and two weeks shall an anointed one BE CUT OFF, and be no more; and the people of a prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; but his end shall be with a flood; and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
What is Anointed One in Hebrew? Is it Chrestus or Mashiach?
GOYISH_EYE_HUDIM
1) there is no one in Isaiah 62 named salvation.If i told you I was bring your laundry, would that mean someone named laundry was coming with me? Same thing here.
2) The last forty years, it didn’t turn white – each of those years had nothing to do with the any of the other years. The Talmud never said anything about sacrifices at that time being rejected – where are you getting this? not from the Talmud
3)That’s just flat out crazy.
4) Do you know what moshiach means? And how many of them are there in Scripture?
1. “there is no one in Isaiah 62 named salvation.If i told you I was bring your laundry, would that mean someone named laundry was coming with me? Same thing here.”
Well, I know what you mean but “salvation/yeshua” is not “laundry”, so the analogy is far fetch. Have you encountered any guy whose name is laundry? I would never meet that guy. But I might meet a person whose name is Moshe (drawn out), Shlomo (peace), Obadiah (G-d’s servant or Ab’del), Rachel (ewe), Chanah (Passion) or Yeshua (Salvation). Believe, understand and read the verse (100x for you): “Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the earth: say ye to the daughter of Zion: ‘Behold, thy salvation (yeshua) cometh; behold, His reward is with Him, and His recompense before Him.’” Use an open mind here Moshe. I want you to consider the case for JC. Well, read it again and again and again and again… Isaiah 62:11 clearly talks about a non-abstract-noun ‘salvation’, a Person: “His reward is with Him, and His recompense before Him.” Yeshua in the T.N.K. for you!
2. “The last forty years, it didn’t turn white – each of those years had nothing to do with the any of the other years. The Talmud never said anything about sacrifices at that time being rejected – where are you getting this? not from the Talmud”
I just copied verbatim from the Talmud. Ok, did the Talmud say that each of those years had nothing to do with any of the others years? None. And I never IMPLIED that. And the argument (from Mas. Yoma 39b) is not for that. Actually each year is unique of its own for each Yom Kippur. But clearly, no matter how, since the red/scarlet ribbon is not turning white, G-d is not accepting the sacrifices. ERGO, NO ATONEMENT. What do you think why they were looking for a scarlet ribbon turning white if not for this? So what does it mean that when the scarlet ribbon is not turning white? An allusion from Isaiah 1:18 (Masoretic JPS 1917 Ed.): “Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD; though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.” THAT IS, AFTER JC DIED, until 70 CE, all sacrifices for every or EACH Yom Kippur had become MEANINGLESS (for 40 straight years)! EVERY YOM KIPPUR SACRIFICE WAS REJECTED.
3. Clearly, if you were a lawyer or a scientist you will try to study ALL possible evidences and will not just depend on your preconceived BIASES. I understand you. JC’s case is not for crazy people.
4. Yeah, I know. The Notzrim (Keepers) know. The ultimate Mashiach is the Son of God. He is our salvation!
Proverbs 30:4 JPS 1917 Edition:
“Who hath ascended up into heaven, and descended? {N}
Who hath gathered the wind in his fists? Who hath bound the waters in his garment? {N}
Who hath established all the ends of the earth? {N}
What is his name, and what is his son’s name, if thou knowest?”
We could also know His Son’s Name just as we know The Name (the Tetragrammaton). His Son’s Name? Well, who could not know.
G-d has a Son. If you are a Mushie (Muslim), you won’t belive this. Shalom!
Psalms 27:1
The LORD is my light and my SALVATION; whom shall I fear? {N}
The LORD is the stronghold of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?
Arigatou! Rav todot!
Luke,
Moshe was chosen as leader having had no experience performing miracles. Even after he was chosen – Which miracles did he perform? G-d actually did them; Moshe was just His messenger. (Exodus 18).Everything Moshe did was in accord with G-d’s word, and a true prophet will follow Moshe’s example. That’s all that Deuteronomy 18 is saying.
Ok, great. We are in agreement, Moshe. So Yeshua is a prophet just like Moshe. Unfortunately for how you may like to spin the passage, it says nothing about “experience”. You might be reading something into it. Moshe performed miracles by the power of HaShem. You cannot, conclusively, say that Yeshua did not operate by this same power. I’m sorry, but you can’t. If you’d like to read a bit more about just how much Moshe and Yeshua have in common, you can do so here.
Luke, that’s not what I said at all – we are in no agreement. jesus was NOTHING like Moshe, who was recognized by all Jews as leader of his people. i didn’t say that Jesus did anything; whether he did or didn’t, none of the things attributed to him qualify as being the messiah.
moshe, did I hit a nerve? It seems you aren’t that you aren’t as familiar with Moshe as I thought you were. Show me a single verse where it states that Moshe was “recognized by all Jews as leader of his people” and I’ll show you ten where his own brother and sister, his wife, even the entire Nation of Israel questioned, doubted, disobeyed, or outright revolted against his authority. You are allowing your emotions to blind you to the obvious. I understand. I was once just like you.
And Yeshua was just like Moshe.
Then you don’t know Moshe at all.
Numbers 16 openly states that the rebellion was not against Moshe, but against G-d; if you want to argue that Datan and Aviram rebelled against him, issues existed with them before Moshe was anything, so it had nothing to do with him.
Likewise, your rebellion is not against Yeshua, but against G-d. Your issues existed with Him before this conversation, but have nothing to do with Yeshua.
“And the Father who sent Me has Himself borne witness about Me. His voice you have never heard, His form you have never seen, and you do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe the One whom He has sent. You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about Me, yet you refuse to come to Me that you may have life. I do not receive glory from people. But I know that you do not have the love of G-d within you. I have come in My Father’s Name, and you do not receive Me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him. How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the Only G-d? Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moshe, on whom you have set your hope. For if you believed Moshe, you would believe Me; for he wrote of Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?” ~ Maran Yeshua (John 5:37-47)
So which of us doesn’t know Moshe, moshe?
Well, Luke, the answer is simple – which of us follows the Torah as it was handed down through Moshe, and which of us follows something that was never recognized as being Jewish?
FTR, Luke, Exodus 18:15 makes it clear that the nation of Israel followed Moshe. There were no other judges. In Jesus’ time, practically no one cared for what he had to say. So, to compare, the entirety of the nation, with all its scholars, following Moshe, vs an unlearned few that followed Jesus. Going further, educated Jews would’ve known that Exodus 19 says that the Jewish people would hear G-d’s voice, and Deuteronomy 4:12 supports that. When Jesus makes comments like that, any biblically literate Jew would do, which possibly explains Jesus’ comments in John 5:37. He doesn’t seem happy that they searched Scriptures and found that when they did so they had no reason to believe him.
So, let’s expand your question – did Jesus know Moshe?
C’mon, moshe.. don’t be so hard on yourself. I certainly think your faith is recognized as being Jewish.
Let’s agree on this much. You know Moshe and keep his Torah perfectly, just as he handed it down. “Jesus” did not know Moshe, since he never actually existed. Yeshua, on the other hand, did know Moshe, since He created him, met him in person a number of times, and centuries later, came as a Jew to keep Torah perfectly (just like you do, apparently) and, incidentally, because He was absolutely blameless, gave His life willingly as the offering for Kol Yisrael. How’s that?
Moses and the ultimate Redeemer will be rejected only to be accepted by the children of Israel.
Both were initially rejected by Israel. (Ex.32:1; Isa.53:3; Rom.11:25-27).
The sons of Eliab: Nemuel, Dathan, and Abiram. These are the Dathan and Abiram, chosen from the congregation, who contended against Moses and Aaron in the company of Korah, when they contended against the L-RD. – Numbers 26:9
Now Korah the son of Izhar, the son of Kohath, the son of Levi, with Dathan and Abiram, the sons of Eliab, and On the son of Peleth, sons of Reuben, took action, and they rose up before Moses, together with some of the sons of Israel, two hundred and fifty leaders of the congregation, chosen in the assembly, men of renown. They assembled together against Moses and Aaron, and said to them, “You have gone far enough, for all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the L-RD is in their midst; so why do you exalt yourselves above the assembly of the L-RD?” – Num.16: 1-3
He answered, “Who made you a prince and a judge over us? Do you mean to kill me as you killed the Egyptian?” Then Moses was afraid, and thought, “Surely the thing is known.” – Ex. 2:14
“He will be with the last deliverer, (Moshiach), as with the first (Moses); as the first deliverer revealed himself first to the Israelites and then withdrew, so also will the last deliverer reveal himself to the Israelites and then withdraw for a while.” (Midrash Ruth Rabbath 5:6)
Both where accepted by Gentiles. Moses by the Medianites (Ex.2:14-22). And Yeshua by the world (Acts 10:45; 1.Tim.3:16). People to this day are rejecting Yeshua and who He is, “But” there are many who have accepted Him on one level or another. Not everyone has a full grasp of who He is, where He is from, what were all the details of His mission, all the details of His character etc etc.
Like Moshe, Mashiach will be revealed, then hidden, then revealed again. (Bamidbar Rabbah 11:2)
The Sages have taught , “Moses is the first redeemer and the last redeemer.” This does not mean, however, that Moses will actually be Moshiach, for Moses was from the tribe of Levi and Moshiach is a descendant of King David who was from the tribe of Judah.
Another interesting similarity: A Midrash explains why Moses was brought up in Pharaoh’s palace and relates this, too, to Moshiach. Moses grew up in the royal palace in Egypt, whence he eventually took out himself and the entire Jewish people. So, too, Moshiach–who will take us out of the present exile of Edom (“Edom” is Rome and the religion and culture associated with that nation) lives with them in their country: Moses and Moshiach live in and are helped by those very lands from which they ultimately redeem the Jewish people.
Midrash Pesiqta Rabbati Chapter 27 continues in this tradition. It describes Mashiach Ben Yosef’s triumph and the glory which he receives as a due reward for his humiliation and suffering on behalf of Israel. It is believed that his ‘triumph’ comes when he returns as Mashiach ben David. It is based on Yeshayahu / Isaiah 41:10: Quote: “The fathers of the world (the patriarchs) will rise again in the month of Nisan and will say to him, Ephraim, our righteous Messiah, though we are your fathers, yet you are greater than we, because you have borne the sins of our children, and hard and evil measure has passed upon you, such as has not been passed either upon those before or upon those after. And you have been for laughter and derision to the nations for the sake of Israel, and you have dwelled in darkness and in gloominess, and your eyes have not seen light, and your skin was cleaving to your bones, and your body was dry as wood, and your eyes were darkened through fasting, and your strength was dried up like a potsherd. And all this on account of the sins of our children. Is it your pleasure that our sons should enjoy the good things which the Holy One, blessed be He, has poured out so abundantly upon Israel? Or, perhaps, on account of the anguish which you have suffered so much for them, and because they have chained you in the prison house (i.e., this would indicate that he also suffered at the hands of his own people), perhaps you are not pleased with them?” He says to them, Fathers of the world, whatever I have done I have done only for your sakes, and for the sake of your children, for the sake of your honor and that of your children, and that they may enjoy the goodness which the Holy One, blessed be He, has poured out over Israel. Then the fathers say to him, Ephraim, our righteous Messiah, let your mind be at rest, as you have put the mind of your Maker at rest and also our mind.”
Rey,
Now that you’re copying and pasting from a site that a)is quoting directly from an old Lubavitch newsletter, and out of context (It’s from the L’Chaim society newsletter, early 90′s) and then they bizarrely connect it to a totally different idea – see http://www.blackelectorate.com/articles.asp?ID=857, dated from 2003 – it’s good to see that you don’t mind cutting and pasting from sources that cut and paste from sources that they don’t mind altering. Knowing that they do that begs the question – why do Christians/messianics trust people that openly alter quotes to suit their arguments?
Angry? No. Upset that people that claim to be sincerely in pursuit of G-d’s truth don’t mind misquoting or contorting sources? Yes. If you actually learn with yeshiva students and rabbis, why are you quoting verbatim from Christian sources with histories of quoting Judaic sources out of context?
Moshe,
Actually the website you have sighted i have never in all my life seen! Now you sounded pretty sure about this, and your wrong. The above post is a mixture of my thoughts with some information from an article in the Messianic website Beth HaDerech and quotes from the Sages. The thing is, is it wrong? No it is not, your beef is that these quotes from the Sages can also apply to the life of Yeshua and this makes you angry. Like i said i know exactly what you are told to say when discussing these subjects with a person who believes in Yeshua, talk about dishonesty. A good friend of mine used to work for Jews for Judaism and he has filled me in on what goes on and actually this is not something that is so secret anymore.
Shalom Moshe,
The great prophet Moshe was sent by HaShem back to Egypt with the signs that happened to be miracles to show them that G-d had chosen Moshe to be their deliverer. Actually Moshe’s whole time as Israels leader was one of constant miracles, and yes G-d did these through Moshe. These miracles were to show that G-d had truly sent/chosen Moshe for this mission.
So it is with the Prophet like unto Moshe, Yeshua. The signs and miracles done by Yeshua’s hand were to prove that G-d had chosen Him as not only Redeemer but as the Savior of the world. As you well know Moshe, the prophet Moshe brought only one nation to serve G-d, but the Moshiach will bring the whole world to serve the Almighty!
Luke, great link!
The signs/wonders had nothing to do with Moshe, Rey. If I recall correctly, perhaps one miracle is performed for that reason – perhaps. Jesus had that gall to do things on his own volition – “you have heard”, ” but I say”…like in Matthew 5:21.
Moshe,
you know very well that the Moshiach is supposed to be more highly exalted than Moshe or any of the patriarchs or prophets! Do you have a problem with the authority with which the Moshiach will have?
One of the central prophecies of the Final Redemption is that “a Torah will go forth from Me” (Isaiah 51:4). On this verse Midrash Vayikra Rabba 13 explains that “G-d will reveal a New Torah:” through the Moshiach. Then we have another puzzling verse in Jeremiah (31:30): ‘Days are coming’, says G-d, ‘when I will cut a new treaty (Brit Chadasha) with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.’ Now this does not infer that the Torah will be changed (G-d forbid), the Torah that G-d gave to Moshe is etenal and can’t change. This is according to the verse in Deutoronomy, “Everything that I command you, you shall keep to do; do not add to it or take away from it” There is another verse in Deutoronomy, “the revealed things (of the Torah) are for us and our children forever to carry out all the words of this Torah.”
So we need to try and understand what Isaiah is talkng about when he speaks about this “New Torah” and what Jeremiah is talking about the “Brit Chadasha”. The Sages themselves state the rule that no prophet can contradict the words and Mitzvot of the Torah. Thus, we have a puzzle. It is very important for us to understand the nature of this “New Torah” and “New Covenant” that the prophets spoke about which will take place in the Messianic Era. The key to this mystery is that the Torah, is infinite and cannot be fully comprehended and grasped by our intellect. While all through history the Sages have brought many great insights and teachings and also interpreting the Torah’s mysteries. Regardless of the many interpretations that have already been brought forth, there are still deeper levels that have yet to be revealed.
Acording to The Talmud Bavli, Masechet Shabbat 109, the Torah is an expression of G-d’s mind and soul, making it infinite. This is the “New Torah” that the Moshiach will teach. Moshiach will teach Torah on a profoundly deep level that we have never been able to see or grasp before. All of Moshiach’s teachings will be based on the same general rules that G-d handed down to Moses at Sinai but will appear new. It is considered a “New Torah,” because these revelations are completely beyond anything that we have comprehended and learned until now.
This to me explains what has happened with the teachings of Yeshua.
Is that Shabbos 109a or Shabbos 109b Rey, you lunatic
Russ,
Can you explain why am i a lunatic?
Rey, read Shabbos 109 – it should be pretty obvious then.
BTW Rey, in your opinion what makes a prophet false?
What about Phlegon?
He was born about A.D. 80[1], was a secular historian who lived in the second century. There are two books credited to his name: Chronicles and the Olympiads. Little is known about Phlegon, but he made reference to Christ. The first quote below is unique to Origen. The second quote is recorded by Philopon. The third quote is from Julius Africanus and the last is from Jerome. The reader should note that Phlegon’s comment that an eclipse of the sun occurred during Jesus’ death was impossible (see Thallus) since an eclipse of the sun cannot occur during a full moon since the Jewish Passover occurs during a full moon. Jesus died during a full moon. It is important to read Thallus’ comments to completely understand the issue.
Here:
“And with regard to the eclipse in the time of Tiberius Caesar, in whose reign Jesus appears to have been crucified, and the great earthquakes which then took place . . . ” – Origen, “Against Celsus”, Book 2.33
“Phlegon mentioned the eclipse which took place during the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus and no other (eclipse); it is clear that he did not know from his sources about any (similar) eclipse in previous times . . . and this is shown by the historical account of Tiberius Caesar.” – Phiopon, De. opif. mund. II21
“Phlegon records that, in the time of Tiberius Cæsar, at full moon, there was a full eclipse of the sun from the sixth hour to the ninth – manifestly that one of which we speak. But what has an eclipse in common with an earthquake, the rending rocks, and the resurrection of the dead, and so great a perturbation throughout the universe? . . . And calculation makes out that the period of 70 weeks, as noted in Daniel, is completed at this time.” – Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18.1
“In the fourth year, however, of Olympiad 202, an eclipse of the sun happened, greater and more excellent than any that had happened before it; at the sixth hour, day turned into dark night, so that the stars were seen in the sky, and an earthquake in Bithynia toppled many buildings of the city of Nicaea.” – Phlegon’s 13th book quoted in Jerome’s translation of Eusebius’ Chronicle, 202 Olympiad
GOYISH_EYE_HUDIM
copied from: http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/historical-secular-quotes-about-jesus/phlegon.html
Rey, plagiarizing without citation? Really? And plagiarizing from sources that disagree with you – quoting sources that you obviously don’t understand? It’s for reasons stated in those sources that I have no reason to believe was a prophet, and certainly not the messiah.
Jesus’ teachings were incomprehensible because they were just incomprehensible. Scientologists teach that you those that deny Scientology just haven’t been enlightened to it – perhaps you should become a scientologist.
Moshe,
why does this make you so angry? You come on here and try to say that none of this is correc and that i or anyone else who uses a citation from the Sages doesn’t know what we are talking about…. that is just trash. Sorry but it is, this is what you are taught to say and that is fine with me. I actually study with different yeshiva students and Rabbis, so for you to tell me that this isn’t so is not honest. Now get this straight, i am not saying that the quotes from the Sages are speaking about Yeshua, but they are in reference to Moshiach! I am the one who believes that Yeshua is the Moshiach.
you and all the tactics in the world can not stop people (including Jewish folks) from seeing the truth! Have a Happy Hanukkah
Well…
WHO WOULD HAVE BELIEVED YOUR REPORTS???
Isaiah 53
א מִי הֶאֱמִין, לִשְׁמֻעָתֵנוּ; וּזְרוֹעַ יְהוָה, עַל-מִי נִגְלָתָה.1 ‘Who would have believed our report? And to whom hath the arm of the LORD been revealed?
ב וַיַּעַל כַּיּוֹנֵק לְפָנָיו, וְכַשֹּׁרֶשׁ מֵאֶרֶץ צִיָּה–לֹא-תֹאַר לוֹ, וְלֹא הָדָר; וְנִרְאֵהוּ וְלֹא-מַרְאֶה, וְנֶחְמְדֵהוּ.2 For he shot up right forth as a sapling, and as a root out of a dry ground; he had no form nor comeliness, that we should look upon him, nor beauty that we should delight in him.
ג נִבְזֶה וַחֲדַל אִישִׁים, אִישׁ מַכְאֹבוֹת וִידוּעַ חֹלִי; וּכְמַסְתֵּר פָּנִים מִמֶּנּוּ, נִבְזֶה וְלֹא חֲשַׁבְנֻהוּ.3 He was despised, and forsaken of men, a man of pains, and acquainted with disease, and as one from whom men hide their face: he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
ד אָכֵן חֳלָיֵנוּ הוּא נָשָׂא, וּמַכְאֹבֵינוּ סְבָלָם; וַאֲנַחְנוּ חֲשַׁבְנֻהוּ, נָגוּעַ מֻכֵּה אֱלֹהִים וּמְעֻנֶּה.4 Surely our diseases he did bear, and our pains he carried; whereas we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
ה וְהוּא מְחֹלָל מִפְּשָׁעֵנוּ, מְדֻכָּא מֵעֲוֹנֹתֵינוּ; מוּסַר שְׁלוֹמֵנוּ עָלָיו, וּבַחֲבֻרָתוֹ נִרְפָּא-לָנוּ.5 But he was wounded because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed.
ו כֻּלָּנוּ כַּצֹּאן תָּעִינוּ, אִישׁ לְדַרְכּוֹ פָּנִינוּ; וַיהוָה הִפְגִּיעַ בּוֹ, אֵת עֲוֹן כֻּלָּנוּ.6 All we like sheep did go astray, we turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath made to light on him the iniquity of us all.
ז נִגַּשׂ וְהוּא נַעֲנֶה, וְלֹא יִפְתַּח-פִּיו, כַּשֶּׂה לַטֶּבַח יוּבָל, וּכְרָחֵל לִפְנֵי גֹזְזֶיהָ נֶאֱלָמָה; וְלֹא יִפְתַּח, פִּיו.7 He was oppressed, though he humbled himself and opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before her shearers is dumb; yea, he opened not his mouth.
ח מֵעֹצֶר וּמִמִּשְׁפָּט לֻקָּח, וְאֶת-דּוֹרוֹ מִי יְשׂוֹחֵחַ: כִּי נִגְזַר מֵאֶרֶץ חַיִּים, מִפֶּשַׁע עַמִּי נֶגַע לָמוֹ.8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away, and with his generation who did reason? for he was cut off out of the land of the living, for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due.
ט וַיִּתֵּן אֶת-רְשָׁעִים קִבְרוֹ, וְאֶת-עָשִׁיר בְּמֹתָיו; עַל לֹא-חָמָס עָשָׂה, וְלֹא מִרְמָה בְּפִיו.9 And they made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich his tomb; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.’
י וַיהוָה חָפֵץ דַּכְּאוֹ, הֶחֱלִי–אִם-תָּשִׂים אָשָׁם נַפְשׁוֹ, יִרְאֶה זֶרַע יַאֲרִיךְ יָמִים; וְחֵפֶץ יְהוָה, בְּיָדוֹ יִצְלָח.10 Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him by disease; to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and that the purpose of the LORD might prosper by his hand:
יא מֵעֲמַל נַפְשׁוֹ, יִרְאֶה יִשְׂבָּע–בְּדַעְתּוֹ יַצְדִּיק צַדִּיק עַבְדִּי, לָרַבִּים; וַעֲוֹנֹתָם, הוּא יִסְבֹּל.11 Of the travail of his soul he shall see to the full, even My servant, who by his knowledge did justify the Righteous One to the many, and their iniquities he did bear.
יב לָכֵן אֲחַלֶּק-לוֹ בָרַבִּים, וְאֶת-עֲצוּמִים יְחַלֵּק שָׁלָל, תַּחַת אֲשֶׁר הֶעֱרָה לַמָּוֶת נַפְשׁוֹ, וְאֶת-פֹּשְׁעִים נִמְנָה; וְהוּא חֵטְא-רַבִּים נָשָׂא, וְלַפֹּשְׁעִים יַפְגִּיעַ. {פ} 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion among the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty; because he bared his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. {P}
Rey,
The website that you’re quoting from is quoting from a site that Beth Haderech obviously didn’t check into. That’s what we call deceptive – deliberately using someone else’s words in an effort to make it appear that they agree with what you’re saying. Defenseless and disgusting.
Second, the quotes from the Sages, in proper context, can not, and do not apply to Jesus. The only way Christians make it seem that way is by doing what you’re doing – misquoting, or quoting out of context. It’s deceitful. Frankly, I don’t care what people are “told to say when when discussing these subjects”, because I was never instructed in what to say. Rey, frankly, your weak employment of straw man and ad hominem arguments are quite poor. You claim to have studied with yeshiva students, and under Rabbi’s tutelages, and have a friend that worked for Jews for Judaism – great! Who are these people? I have contacts throughout several Jewish organizations, and would love to verify your claims.
Moshe,
Once again your above statements are not proving nothing, not a thing! The quotes don’t apply to Yeshua? Prove it, that’s what i say!
Nobody else knows what they are talking about except for you right Moshe? Common man be for real! Nobody here is forcing you to believe in Yeshua, you have free will and a brain to think for yourself as does everybody else.
you said: “You claim to have studied with yeshiva students, and under Rabbi’s tutelages, and have a friend that worked for Jews for Judaism – great! Who are these people?
Moshe you know better than that
…. i know better than to cause trouble for some who are actually trying to study G-d’s Torah and learn the truth…. unlike those who try to sensor the truth. smh smh
Rey,
When will the Mashiach come (according to them)?
Tractate Sanhedrin Folio 98a (Babylonian Talmud) has this answer (in verbatim):
[Ze'iri said in R. Hanina's name: The son of David (i.e. the Mashiach) will not come until there are NO CONCEITED MEN in Israel, as it is written, For then I will take away out of the midst of thee them that rejoice in thy pride: which is followed by, I will also leave in the midst of thee an afflicted and poor people, and they shall take refuge in the name of the Lord.]
- insertion and emphasis mine –
This is related to Zephaniah 3:11-12:
11 In that day shalt thou not be ashamed for all thy doings, wherein thou hast transgressed against Me; for then I will take away out of the midst of thee thy proudly exulting ones, and thou shalt no more be haughty in My holy mountain.
12 And I will leave in the midst of thee an afflicted and poor people, and they shall take refuge in the name of the LORD.
I am now not wondering why the “Messiah” is not yet coming…
Frum Goy (G.Y.)
“It was he (Moses) to whom our fathers were unwilling to listen and whom they rejected, and their hearts turned toward Egypt.” – (Ma’asei HaShlichim/Acts 7:39)
Stephen reminded the Sanhedrin that Moses’ generation rejected the “words of life.” He said, “Our fathers were unwilling to be obedient to him, but repudiated him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.” Just as Moses’ generation rejected the Torah and repudiated their redeemer, the generation of Yeshua refused His words of life and repudiated Him. The Torah tells the story of how the people in Moses’ generation often rebelled against their redeemer and expressed their desire to return to Egypt.
Whoever has ears to listen, listen……
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