The Law of Messiah

This is a guest post by Levitt, and is Part Four of a series on Messianic Jews and Torah.

In Matthew 5, Yeshua starts to reveal something new and different from what has gone before: the Kingdom of Heaven or Kingdom of God. This is a vast topic, and I write with a trepidation as I only understand a little of what the Kingdom is. I understand tiny parts, occasionally I get a glimpse of this glorious Kingdom, and I want to share some ideas with you. Perhaps you can help me to understand as well, and make suggestions.

The first thing about a Kingdom is it needs a King. The realm or sphere (Kingdom) in which one thing is dominant the (King). Well we know the King of this Kingdom is Yeshua. This Kingdom is some what different from the political or territorial units we see here on earth. It is eternal, heavenly and Godly. Yeshua starts his teaching about the Kingdom here, and it is entirely different from the kingdoms we see on earth. Those who are poor and meek will have the Kingdom, is a sharp contrast to today where the rich and strong have the Kingdom of this Earth (Matt 5:3-6). A kingdom needs a constitution, that is a set or rules for government and its structure. This often takes the form of a written document.  Here Yeshua starts explain the constitution of the Kingdom of Heaven with the statement “The Kingdom of Heaven is like….”.

When the nation of Israel was formed it to had a “constitution” that enumerated and limited the functions and powers of entities within, and gave laws to its  subjects on how to live. For instance the Torah outlined the structure for worship and Levitical priesthood.  The constitution of the Kingdom of Israel is the Law of Moses. But what is the name of the constitution of the Kingdom of Heaven. Paul gives us an insight in Galatians 6:2, “The Law of Messiah”.  So what is the Law of Messiah, and how does it contrast with Moses?

In Matthew 5 we see 6 units of teaching each introduced by the phrase “You have heard that it was said”. Some of these have additions. For instance the 6th commandment says “You shall not murder” and Yeshua adds “you shall not be angry”. The 7th commandment says “You shall not commit adultery” and Yeshua adds that “whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” And so I could go on – perhaps in a later post I will outline the Law of Messiah in more detail.

What is interesting is some of the omissions. Take Sabbath, throughout the Gospels there is a tension between Yeshua and the religious leaders regarding his approach to Sabbath. Perhaps a key verse is Matthew 12:8 where Yeshua states, “For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath”. In this verse He puts himself above the Sabbath, and states that it is subject to Him. I can’t find any Gospel account where he instructs us to keep Sabbath. However Hebrews 4:4 talks about us entering in to His Sabbath rest , and the writer encourages us to be diligent and enter into the rest in Hebrews 4:11. In Colossians 2:16-17 we read “So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Messiah”. I can’t find a direct New Testament command to keep Sabbath.

Yeshua never came to destroy the law, but to fulfill everyone of its requirements on our behalf, which He did through His redemptive work. The tension in this passage is He then says, that “Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

So what is Yeshua referring to? And to which commandments: the Mosaic Law or the Law of Messiah? It’s unlikely to be Mosaic Law, as Gentiles would have to be circumcised, the Book of Galatians would be a book of heresy; Colossians would be most wrong on it’s Sabbath teaching, and the Book of Hebrews would be an extraordinary violation since it clearly states that the entire sacrificial system, temple worship and Levitical priesthood has been annulled (Hebrews 7:18).

In my previous blogs, I explained how the Levitical Priesthood had been replaced by the order of Melchizedek. Clearly then Yeshua must be referring to the commandments He then gives, starting with the 6 units beginning “You have heard that it was said”.

So where does this leave regarding with Torah observance?

The Apostle Paul, explained it well when he said in 1 Corinthians 9:19-22 “For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law,  that I might win those who are under the law; to those who are without law, as without law (not being without law toward God,  but under law toward Messiah),  that I might win those who are without law; to the weak I became as  weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some”.

Paul was happy to be Torah observant and Torah disobedient, but He was always Messiah’s-Law-observant! He didn’t observe Torah because he felt a duty or a compulsion. He did it to win souls in to the Kingdom of Heaven. We do God no favors in our Torah observance as our works are filthy rags. He wants us to be free. Free to be Torah observant and free to not be Torah observant. Yet we read in James 2:8-13 how we are compelled to obey the Law of Messiah, which is the Royal Law and the Law of Liberty as found in Leviticus 19:18: “ You shall love your neighbor as yourself. ”

78 thoughts on “The Law of Messiah

  1. You’ve made Paul look like a forked-tongued lier and a hypocrite (posturing as something one is not), who ONLY PRETENDED to be an faithful Jew when around Jews to accomplish a certain goal. According to you, for Paul any means justified the ends. You made him out to be a lier, considering he testified before judges that he did NOTHING against either Torah or even traditions of the fathers. What a disservice to the name and reputation of this great man of G-d.

    • Gene, Paul was culturally sensitive and wanted the gospel of Yeshua to be the only offence, he adapted himself to different situations, his logic was consistent.

      • Contrary to J4J or other Christian missionaries view of Torah, Jewish obedience to Torah of G-d is nothing to do with “culture”. Hypocrisy is sin and it remains hypocrisy no matter if one think to justify by what they view as positive goals. Thankfully, this ignore view of Torah and Shaul is just that – ignorant.

      • “Then everybody will know there is no truth in these reports about you [Shaul], but that you yourself are LIVING in obedience to the Torah.” (Acts 21:24)

        Notice that Paul had to prove that he was LIVING in obedience, not just PRETENDING (or just being obedient as situation required) to be obedient when around Jews.

        Thus, there’s no truth to what you’re spreading either, these false reports about Paul’s disobedience to Torah.

    • Gene where do I say or suggest Paul was pretending to be a Jew or a liar?

      Have you a problem with what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 9:19-22?

      He wrote himself he was a Jew to the Jew and Gentile to the Gentiles. Those are Paul’s words.

      • He didn’t say that he pretended to be a Gentile with the Gentiles! You completely misconstrue his words – Shaul simply approached people on their level, in whatever condition they were in. This means that he didn’t preach Torah observance to a Gentile – because this was not for them, but gave them the Gospel in a way that was sensible to them.

        How do we know this for a fact… look in the end of the verse, in 1 Corinthians 9:22, Paul says:

        “To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. ”

        What does that mean? If someone had a problem with alcohol, did Paul go in and start drinking with them so that they receive the gospel? If someone had a weak faith, did Paul pretend to have a weak faith to win them over? If someone was fearful, did Paul become fearful? Sounds ridiculous if one starts imagining that Paul took on the characteristics and actions of people he ministered too, instead of simply understanding them on their level!

      • If Paul took the gospel message to a desert island where pig was the staple food, I daresay he too would eat pig meat. If he were to take the gospel to Mea Shearim, I’m sure he wouldn’t eat a bacon sarnie whilst handing out tracts.

        There’s nothing deceptive or even “missionary” about this, it’s how normal people act, they adapt to situations in order to be able to love one’s neighbour sensitively and sensibly.

      • “If Paul took the gospel message to a desert island where pig was the staple food, I daresay he too would eat pig meat.”

        On a deserted island there would be no one to preach the gospel too, by definition. Regardless, being an obedient Jew, he would eat vegetables – unless his very life depended on eating something non-kosher (as for Jews in the Holocaust), because life takes precedence even to Shabbat.

        Regardless, it’s highly unlikely he would end up on an island with no Jews, since he always went to places where Jews lived, and visited Jews first – and Jews lived just about everywhere in the Roman Empire.

      • On a deserted island there would be no one to preach the gospel too, by definition.

        Ok let’s imagine the cast of Lost were shipwrecked on the island :D

        Regardless, being an obedient Jew, he would eat vegetables – unless his very life depended on eating something non-kosher

        I find that hard to believe – Paul says in Romans 14:2:

        One man’s faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables.

      • “One man’s faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables.”

        He was speaking to Gentiles who were eating or buying meat sacrificed to idols, not Jews. Those whose faith was weak had a chance to revert back to their idolatry, so they would avoid meat.

        Again, these words, being an apostle to the Gentile, have nothing to do with Jews. Because he would NEVER ever preach Torah-breaking to Jews, since he had to prove that he never did such a vile thing.

      • Yes, good point Israel, Paul always went to the synagogue first wherever possible to preach bsuras hamoshiach, but sometimes he didn’t meet specifically with Jews – or at least it’s not recorded – e.g. Malta, not sure if that’s the only exception – and that too was a shipwreck

      • “Again, these words, being an apostle to the Gentile, have nothing to do with Jews. Because he would NEVER ever preach Torah-breaking to Jews, since he had to prove that he never did such a vile thing.”

        Paul’s message was never for anyone to deliberately break Torah, it just wasn’t necessary to keep Torah. You can if you want to, but it doesn’t make you any better than a non-observant Jew.

      • “You can if you want to, but it doesn’t make you any better than a non-observant Jew.”

        Joe, it’s not better vs worse – no-one is good but G-d. However, as a Jew, it makes you, Joe, a willful Torah-breaker and therefore someone who sins deliberately and refuses to repent. And if one sins deliberately…. you know the rest.

      • Gene

        “However, as a Jew, it makes you, Joe, a willful Torah-breaker and therefore someone who sins deliberately and refuses to repent. And if one sins deliberately…. you know the rest.”

        I don’t know what the rest is? Are you saying Joe and myself are condemned because we aren’t Torah observant Jews?

      • Correct. I was highlighting that Paul was following Messiah’s (and Torah’s) injunction to go to the Jews first – and that this was his intent and plan wherever he went. Shipwrecks wouldn’t have been something planned for sure. :D

        I only wish the Church itself would remember this injunction and seek to engage all unbelieving Jews on their level – which sadly requires a level of education that is not even offered at the vast majority of seminaries, let alone in almost all congregations. It’s sad to see common (yet misinformed) Christian arguments be easily torn down by those with just a smattering of Jewish day school education.

        Shalom,

        Israel

      • Yes, Israel, I agree with Paul that Yeshua should be preached in the synagogues before anywhere else.. now who has the chutzpah to go first :D

      • “I don’t know what the rest is? Are you saying Joe and myself are condemned because we aren’t Torah observant Jews?”

        Levitt, how would I know? Only G-d knows who belongs to him and who has eternal life. Therefore, I am not privy to your eternal status.

        However, can you tell me what is sin?

      • Gene, I’ll assume then that you think I’m eternally damned because I’m not Torah observant.

        So a Jew who isn’t Torah observant is eternally damned?

      • Surely you should know, Gene.

        Your logic is:

        1) Messianic Jews are bound to observe laws of Mosaic Torah.
        2) The laws of Mosaic Torah are God’s eternal commandments.
        3) Doing acts of the Torah are proof of one’s salvation.
        4) If you openly disobey any part of the Torah as a Jew, you are acting against Christ.
        5) Anyone who professes to love Christ but wilfully does not obey any part of the Torah is effectively a liar.
        6) Liars who lie about their salvation do not belong to Christ.
        7) Non-observant Messianic Jews are condemned.

        Nu?

      • You got everything right, except for the last point. Other than for the fact that NT says that if one sins deliberately (fully knowing what he’s doing and doing it even though he knows what Torah says), per Hebrews 10:26 there remains no more sacrifice for him, it’s not for me to know who is condemned and who has eternal life. However, I suspect that most Jewish believers who reject G-d’s commandments as Jews do so in ignorance because they grew up spiritually within Gentile Christian environment that rejected Judaism and Jewishness of Yeshua long ago.

        I do know for a fact and from Yeshua’s own teaching that for a Jew, breaking the Torah and teaching other to do the same will result in a loss of reward in the Kingdom.

  2. How can the Messiah have a law apart from Torah if it is written “do not add to or take away” in the context of teaching Israel how to identify a false prophet?

  3. Gene, I’ll assume then that you think I’m eternally damned because I’m not Torah observant.

    So a Jew who isn’t Torah observant is eternally damned?

  4. I agree, this interpretation of Paul just being anything, such as a drunk to win drunks is hypocritical and damaging to the Message of the Gospel and the Righteousness of God… Second, it would make Paul a hypocrite for condemning Peter in Galatians 2:12, in the interpretation offered above, Peter was just practicing a little bit of Paul’s own medicine, not convincing in the least.

    • Zion, no-one is saying Paul would sin to reach people. Peter’s actions made him refrain from meeting and eating with Gentiles, Paul’s situational use of Torah is designed to allow him to meet and eat with Gentiles!

      • You are implying that it is okay to sin, as long as you are winning people to the Gospel, as I said before, that is harmful to the Gospel…

      • “Zion – do you consider shaving the corners of your beard for non-Levite Jews to be a sin?”

        As long as one doesn’t use a blade but a machine, current Orthodox halacha allows for shaving. Any questions, Joe?

      • I’m not asking about halachah, I’m asking about the laws given by God to Moses, which you say are 100% binding on Messianic Jews.

        But let’s go with this for a minute.

        Yes I do have a question – two actually:

        1) Is it a sin for a Messianic Jew to trim the corners of his beard with an actual blade?

        2) Is it a sin for a Messianic Jew to get a Gentile barber to trim the corners of his beard with an actual blade?

      • “Yes I do have a question – two actually:
        1) Is it a sin for a Messianic Jew to trim the corners of his beard with an actual blade?
        2) Is it a sin for a Messianic Jew to get a Gentile barber to trim the corners of his beard with an actual blade?”

        Yes, it appears to be an act of disobedience for Jew (what’s your point about a Gentile barber, though?) – but only because G-d himself said that it is – and who are we to question G-d or his reasons, simply because we don’t understand them or find them inconvenient in our modern “sophisticated” world?

      • Yes, it appears to be an act of disobedience for Jew (what’s your point about a Gentile barber, though?) – but only because G-d himself said that it is – and who are we to question G-d or his reasons, simply because we don’t understand them or find them inconvenient in our modern “sophisticated” world?

        My point was – is it alright for a Gentile to do it for you, if you can’t use the blade yourself as a Jew?

        So a Jewish believer in Yeshua who continually and consciously uses a blade on the corner of his beard is not walking in love and obedience? Should such people be expelled from our congregations until they repent?

  5. Marl 1:15
    “The time has come,” he (Yeshua) said. “The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!”

    May we all make teshuvah.

  6. Brothers,

    Either we believe Sha’ul or we believe his enemies.

    His enemies said he taught against The Temple, the customs, Moses (Torah), and brit milah.
    Sha’ul said he did not.

    I believe Sha’ul.

    As to whether Sha’ul would eat pig meat on a deserted island, he said “I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees.” He didn’t say, “I WAS a Pharisee.” You couldn’t be a Pharisee and eat pig meat, nor could you be a Pharisee and stop being a Torah observant Jew just because you’re the only Jew around Gentiles.

    Adding to what Gene said, to say that he became as a Greek to the Greeks and a Gentile to the Gentiles is not to say that he became like them; Sha’ul brought The Gospel by approaching the three groups with the things they were most familiar with:
    Jews with The Tanakh.
    Greeks with logic and reason.
    Gentiles with knowledge of their lifestyle.

    To say that Sha’ul put on three different faces and personae around three different groups of people is to discredit him as being deceptive and disingenuous. His reputation suffers enough from his enemies past and present.

    Let us be reminded that he encouraged the Corinthian community (1 Cor. 11:1) to imitate him as he imitated Messiah, who told His own talmidim to be great in the Kingdom of Heaven by keeping Torah and teaching others to do so (Matt. 5:19). May those who count Sha’ul among their friends see him for who he proclaimed himself to be, right to the day the Emperor Nero took his head: as a faithful emissary of Yeshua who walked as The Messiah walked, in perfect Torah observance.

    And what exactly is Messiah’s Law? If we believe that the God of The Old Testament is The Messiah of The New Testament, then Messiah’s Law is the Torah, written on the heart by the finger of Yeshua.

    Yasher Koach brothers!

    • If you think it is deceptive to have different approaches with different groups of people then that’s your call, but you’ll find in your own life that you do, e.g. you’ll have a different relationship with your family than with your friends than with your work colleagues, etc. Different social laws apply in different circumstances, that’s normal.

      Let’s put it another way: If you’re a white American girl and you don’t dress modestly, if you go to Saudi Arabia, you have to cover up. It doesn’t make you a Muslim, in fact people may be able to tell you’re a white American by the way you speak or the clothes you wear. Being respectful of other people’s customs isn’t deceptive, it’s normal. It doesn’t make you a liar at all.

      Messiah’s law is described in Galatians 6:2 as bearing one another’s burdens, Messiah condemned law-givers who load up burdens via the way they teach Mosaic Torah in Luke 11:46.

  7. Galatian 6:2 and the “law of Messiah.”

    What did Paul mean by that? the teachings of Yeshua were no doubt known among the congregations of the Way, even before the gospels as we know them were finalized in their canonical form. The apostles were commissioned to “make disciples of the nations” and to ” teach them to observe all that i commanded you” (Matt. 28:19-20).

    The “Torah of messiah” should be understood as the “Torah as Messiah taught it and lived it.” it is anschronistic to interpret the phrase as though the Torah of Messiah is different than the Torah of Moses. It might be in variance to rabbinic interpretations of the Torah, but it was not in any manner contradictory to Moses. To even imagine something like that is to make Yeshua a false prophet.

    All the fluff that Gev gives us about Changing the commandment from “you shall not murder” to “you shall not be angry” is just a Christian crock…What did you mean by that, Gev, that it is OK to murder now, just not to be angry? You guys Swollowed the Christian “shpil” hook line and sinker….

    You are making Paul to be some UN envoy that was concerned with culture, You believe that he taught contradictory to Yeshua without even taking in consideration that the very crowds that came into the faith by the blood of Messiah would have never listen to someone who teaches contradictory to their Master….

    You should ask you pastor for a refund…LOL!

    • Correct Dan. When the Master said “love one another as I have loved you,” he speaking past tense – not that he would die on the cross, but that he have loved them by living righteously – in full accordance with the Torah. In short “love one another according to Torah as I have loved you according to Torah.”

      Shalom,

      Israel

    • even before the gospels as we know them were finalized in their canonical form.

      Do you think the present New Testament is a corruption of the original text?

      All the fluff that Gev gives us about Changing the commandment from “you shall not murder” to “you shall not be angry” is just a Christian crock…What did you mean by that, Gev, that it is OK to murder now, just not to be angry? You guys Swollowed the Christian “shpil” hook line and sinker….

      Do you mean Lev not Gev?

      No-one’s saying that – if you love then you won’t be angry with your neighbour, or if you are angry then through the Holy Spirit that Moshiach allows to dwell in us, you will become aware of this anger and how it goes against Messiah’s law of love. If you cut the sin off at its core then there is no need to act upon it. If you love then you will not be angry sinfully, and if you are not angry sinfully you then won’t murder. This is how Messiah’s Law is greater than Moses’ law.

      The “Torah of messiah” should be understood as the “Torah as Messiah taught it and lived it.” it is anschronistic to interpret the phrase as though the Torah of Messiah is different than the Torah of Moses. It might be in variance to rabbinic interpretations of the Torah, but it was not in any manner contradictory to Moses. To even imagine something like that is to make Yeshua a false prophet.

      Then why did John write (John 1:17):

      For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

      • 1) That is not what I meant and you know it. Are you trying to derail the discussion?

        2) Sorry, I meant Levitt. this time you did not try to derail…LOL!

        3) But that is not changing any existing commandment, or coming up with a new one, or is it?

        4) I get this a lot, you are pitting law vs. grace, forgetting that God gave us both, and He never contradicts Himself.

      • 1 – I’m asking because you spoke about “the gospels as we know them [were] finalized in their canonical form”. Sometimes when people say this they are implying that the gospels are a corruption of what was originally written.

        2 – I never have, although inevitably sometimes you won’t agree with my answers. In the specific thread where you accuse me of not answering my questions, I linked to my answer to your questions – can’t say fairer than that.

        3 – It’s part of Messiah’s new commandment, intimately linked to Messiah’s Law and wouldn’t make sense without Messiah’s Law.

        4 – I asked you why John wrote that through Moses came law and through Jesus came grace and truth, not how often people quote this verse to you.

  8. Burden….

    Yeshua, both in His word and in His actions, briught the divinity intended meaning of the Torah to the eyes and ears of those He taught. His emphasis was upon a living out of torah in which genuine love for God and for one;s neighbor was the driving factor in halachic desisions. while the sages were expert at piling burdens upon men’s shoulders without lifting a finger to help them bear the load (Matt. 23:4), Yeshua sought to unwrap the Torah from the entaglement of mae, and to show that living a life of Torah by faith is not a burden, but a delight.
    Therefore, by bearing the burdens of one another, the followers of Yeshua fulfill the Torah as it was intended to be fulfilled, by living it out in the context of love for God, and love for one another. In this way, the torah as taufgt and mideled by yeshua would be fulfilled.

    • His emphasis was upon a living out of torah in which genuine love for God and for one;s neighbor was the driving factor in halachic desisions. while the sages were expert at piling burdens upon men’s shoulders without lifting a finger to help them bear the load (Matt. 23:4), Yeshua sought to unwrap the Torah from the entaglement of mae, and to show that living a life of Torah by faith is not a burden, but a delight.

      Couldn’t the “classic Christian anti-Torah” line which you are using easily be turned back against you here? The same things you say about my interpretation of Paul, another could say about your interpretation of Jesus.

      The thing is I actually agree with you, but you’re saying Jesus can criticise the way the world operates in relation to Torah but Paul can’t.

  9. Glad you agree with me. Rest assured that If Yeshua criticised, so did Paul, otherwise he would be a lier calling himself in the opening of most of his epistles “An Apostel and bond servant of Yeshua Hamashiach….”

  10. So according to the Gene and other TOMJ’s, to show the fruit of salvation, I must not trim the corners of his beard with an actual blade?

    You don’t think it a little ridiculous?

    • Why are you Christian always revere to the old and tired song and dance that the Torah is not for salvation. No one said it is, but for lack of answers that is the only place you can go…

      So here is it: The Torah cannor save you Dahaaaa…Satisfied now?

      Now, in light of Matt. 5:17-20 and 1 Cor. 7:19 can you show us where yeshua or paul ever advocate the abolishment of Torah?….Good hunting…..

      • Dan, I didn’t say that not trimming the corners of my beard would save or that you were inferring such.

        What I asked, is that once saved by Yeshua, do you think that the fruits of salvation include not trimming the corners of my beard?

        Do you understand the difference?

      • I’ve dealt with Matthew 5:17-20.

        However you take 1 Cor7:19 out of it’s context. So let’s put it back in it context.

        1Cr 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God [is what matters]. v20 Let each one remain in the same calling in which he was called. v21 Were you called [while] a slave? Do not be concerned about it; but if you can be made free, rather use [it]. v22 For he who is called in the Lord [while] a slave is the Lord’s freedman. Likewise he who is called [while] free is Christ’s slave. v23 You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men. v24 Brethren, let each one remain with God in that [state] in which he was called.

        Most of my family had given up on Torah Observance. So I am accepting my position, and not trying to be something I wasn’t. I am remaining in the same calling in which I was called. I’m not pretending to be Haredi, Ultra Orthodox, or a Rabbi. I am not ashamed of my place of calling, or the place I am at now.

        If you were called from a Torah Observant background, than as I have said you are at liberty to keep Torah Observance if you choose. But don’t compel those of us who weren’t to Torah Observance, it’s not our calling.

  11. You did not put it back in context, you took it way out and bent it like a pretzel.

    The context refers to circumcision and uncircumcision, not orthodox Haredi or what have you. since paul says here that only the commandments of God counts for Jew and gentile, you have no argument but obeying Torah. You can explain it away until you are blue in the face, but you cannot escape the meaning.

  12. Did Yeshua trim the corner of His beared? Since you Christians boast of walking in His steps, then you do the math…..

  13. Joseph,

    3) sometime in the future when you will become a father, you will understand that you can love your child yet be angree with him when he does something wrong. You are using an old christian song and dance that work only in fantasy, not reality. God loves His cration, but destroyed Sodom and Gomorah, didn’t he?

    4) It was in reference of having two torahs. Nowhere in scriptures can we find grace and truth described as Messia’s law, you are reading your agenda into Scriptures.

    • sometime in the future when you will become a father, you will understand that you can love your child yet be angree with him when he does something wrong.

      I understand this, of course.

      You are using an old christian song and dance that work only in fantasy, not reality. God loves His cration, but destroyed Sodom and Gomorah, didn’t he?

      How does this relate to your point about Christians observing Torah?

      It was in reference of having two torahs. Nowhere in scriptures can we find grace and truth described as Messia’s law, you are reading your agenda into Scriptures.

      Yes we can in 2 John.

  14. >>How does this relate to your point about Christians observing Torah?<<

    Levit is of the notion that we can murder now, but we cannot get angry…

    2 John where? And does it say specifically that grace and truth is Messiah's law? ot again you are reading your agenda ito Scriptures?

    • Levit is of the notion that we can murder now, but we cannot get angry…

      That’s not how a disciple of Yeshua would think. Anyone who actually believed that would not be thinking in according with Messiah’s Law, and would not be taking every thought captive to Messiah.

      From 2 John:

      v.3: Grace from God & Jesus Christ with truth.
      v.4: Those obedient to God are walking in the truth.
      v.5: God’s command is to love.
      v.6: Those obedient to God follow his commands & his command is that we love.

      • 1) First, you have yet to define for us what Messiah;s law is. secondly, tell it to Levitt, not me…

        2) This is not what i have asked you. what are you imlying here that the Torah is a lie?

      • Neither Levitt or I would ever say you “can murder” – it is the ultimate expression of a sin which begins in the heart. James 1:14-15:

        but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

    • Dan

      “Levit is of the notion that we can murder now, but we cannot get angry…”

      No I am not. I have never said we can murder now. Where have I said this?

      • Dan,

        The 9th Commandement is not to bear false witness against your neighbour.

        You’ve just beared false witness against me stating I am of the notion that it’s okay to murder.

        What happened to your Torah Observance, or am I not your neighbour?

        Levitt

    • No, not according to the New Testament, they are cultish offshoots of Christianity, although I suppose some could be Christians within Mormon/JW communities.

      • So why should identify with them?

        BTW, I am also do not identify myself with what is today passed as “Messianic Judaism”…..

      • Because you are a Christian and they’re not! I think Messianic Jews need to help redeem the word “Christian” from how it has been misused and abused. Many Gentile Christians are very sorrowful about Christianity’s anti-Semitic history, but feel powerless in how to actually change this perception. More than anyone, Messianic Jews need to show how being a Christian is a good and positive thing.

  15. But both of you said that Messiah added a new law not to be angry…Does not compute…That is not a law of Messiah, that is an interpretation of Messiah to an existing law.

    • An interpretation is “The Torah says that” or “This passage means that”.

      Messiah is different. He begins: “I say to you” – he speaks on his own legal authority.

      • That is because He Himself gave us the Torah. he also knew very well that most of them knew where the prohibition against murder was written?

      • Which is why we should learn what’s in the Torah. And we should know why the Torah was given to Moses by God’s Messiah, why Moses gave it to the people of Israel, what the Torah says about God’s Messiah, what God’s Messiah says about Torah, and what Messiah’s Torah is.

  16. The problem Joseph is, that what is passing today as Messianic Judaism is just a farce…How can they call a group Jewish when it is comprised of 90% Gentiles? “Christian” has become such a generic term that nothing can bring it back to its original place, which BTW was a derogatory term anyway…

    • Okay Dan. I’m not talking about the Messianic movement, just us as individual believers. I think a Messianic Jew is a Jew who belongs to Messiah, it’s a nice term which is popular and widespread now. So long as we’re expressing the idea that Jesus died for our sins and we must repent and believe, I suppose it doesn’t really matter what we call ourselves or what others call us.

      • Now you are talking.

        It is four in the morning here and i am going back to bed. I enjoy it very much, you are a very bright kid and i admire it. See you in the morning, you are doing a great job with this blog, God bless.

  17. The difference between the Mosaic Law and the Law of Christ is LOVE. You can fulfill the Mosaic Law without love, but you cannot fulfill the Law of Christ without Love. LOVE is the main issue! If you love G_D you will do His Will, if you love your neighbor as yourself, you will not transgress against your neighbor. Yeshua said, “Those who do the Will of My Father is My Mother, Brother and Sister.” Blessed are you through YHVH Avinu shbaShomayim in Yeshua’s HaMoshiach’s Name who has understanding.

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