'Death of Korah, Dathan and Abiram' by Gustave Doré
Grace-inspired Messianic Jews see the concept of “Torah-observant Messianic Judaism” as an anachronistic imitation of someone else’s religion. Messianic Jews are of course at liberty to observe the Biblical laws of the Mosaic Torah, and even rabbinical add-ons where appropriate. Yet we consider the idea that Torah is binding on Messianic Jews and Gentile Christians to be an affront to the grace freely given by our Messiah, Adon Yeshua.
Marshall Beeber has some excellent articles on this theme at the Messianic Literary Corner.
Yet for pointing out the plain meaning of Paul’s words – such as Galatians 3:25: ‘Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law’ or Hebrews 7:18 ‘The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless’ – grace-inspired Messianic Jews are accused of “anti-nomianism” by those preaching Torah.
Yet as we shall see, anti-nomianist assumptions are curiously embedded deep within the heart of TOM-J ideology.
This is the first Ishbitzer Rebbe Mordechai Yosef Leiner (1801-1854):
Leiner wrote the Mei haShiloach. The Ishbitzer taught that in order to obey and truly know God, you have to step outside of the boundaries of halachah as set by the rabbis of Orthodox Judaism and codified in the shulchan aruch.
Shaul Magid writes of Leiner’s Ishbitzer dynasty:
Inaugurated by Rabbi Mordechai Joseph Lainer of Izbica in his posthumous teachings in Mei ha-Shiloah, first published in 1860, this dynasty produced numerous Hasidic works that exhibited a doctrine of determinism and antinomianism unparalleled in even the early, more footloose Hasidic schools. [1]
In his book on Hasidim and Kierkegaardian philosophy, Jerome I. Geldman lists some of the ‘many passage from the writings of the Rabbi of Izbica wherein sinning in accordance with God’s will occurs or is endorsed.’ [2]
These include:
- If Eve hadn’t eaten from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, it would be okay for Adam to (MH, 1:4b).
- It was God’s will that Noah should get drunk, Noah understood this and got drunk (MH, 1:5b).
- If you discern clearly that you should act against the Law, God will know you did right (MH, 1:5b).
- Whereas the tribe of Ephraim looked to the Law, the tribe of Judah looked to God and not the Law, and act even if they act against the Law (MH, 1:14b).
- Judah and his daughter-in-law Tamar had an impulse to sleep together, and realised that this was God’s will (MH, 1:14b).
- When Zimri joined in with the sacrifices to Baal of Peor and committed sexual immorality with the Moabite women (Numbers 25), he was acting in accordance with an inner conviction that this was God’s will (MH, 1:54a).
- So long as it’s for holy purposes, you can break the Torah.
- The ‘upright of heart’ in Psalm 97:11 are those willing to sin when God wills them to. [3]
Here is what the Ishbitzer wrote about Zimri in his commentary on Balak/Pinchas:
“Now let it not enter into your mind that Zimri was simply an adulterer, God forbid, because from an adulterer God would not make a chapter of the Torah. There is a secret hidden here [...] When such a person finds himself overwhelmed with lust and discovers that he has committed an act of debauchery, then it is obviously the will of God.”
This is what the Ishbitzer wrote about Korah – the man who led the rebellion against Moses as recorded in Numbers 16 -in his commentary on Korach:
Korach’s argument was that the fear of God is so plain and obvious to him, he perceives so clearly how everything is in the hands of heaven, even the fear of heaven. How then is it possible that a person do against the will of God, since the will and the acts are both God’s doing? It would be impossible to do anything against the will of God.
Here then is antinomianism in extremis.
So long as you’re convinced it’s okay, you can break the Torah to do God’s will. You can sleep with your son’s wife if you think God gave you the impulse to do it. You can even have sex during idol worship so long as you perceive it’s God’s will. And if you’re from the tribe of Judah, there’s no need to bother with the Torah anyway as you naturally look to God.
One of Leiner’s disciples was Rabbi Zadok of Lublin, whom the Ishbitzer converted from being a misnaged. Zadok taught that King David’s adulterous relationship with Bathsheba was justified because David knew that it was God’s will for them to be together, so that they could have Solomon as their son. [4]
Recently, Leiner’s teachings from Mei haShiloah have gained a great degree of interest, thanks to the late rabbi Shlomo Carlebach, who was a famous post-war spiritual leader of the American neo-Hasidic movement within Judaism.
This is a photo of Shlomo Carlebach:
As one rabbi explained:
‘Study of Mei ha-Shiloach recently gained popularity through Rabbi Shlomo Carlebach and through Carlebach’s student, Betsalel Philip Edwards, who made an English translation called Living Waters.’ [5]
Much like the Biblical villains whom the Ishbitzer turned into heroes, Shlomo Carlebach was notorious for his sexual predatory actions. You can read about the case of Carlebach on the Awareness Center, which hosts stories from women who were hurt by Carlebach and testimonies from other rabbis regarding Carlebach’s behaviour.
So how do Torah-observant Messianic Jews react to Shlomo Carlebach, who has popularised these antinomianist teachings?
After all, here is a man who not only broke God’s commandments through his immoral actions, but also spread the teachings of the Ishbitzer. The Ishbitzer who taught others that one can sin and be holy sinning. To this day, the teachings of the Ishbitzer thrive in the neo-Hasidic chavakuk communities who follow Carlebach doctrine. [6]
Surely this is a man from whom the Torah-observant Messianic Jews would want to distance themselves?
Instead, this is what leading TOM-J organisation the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations has to say on Carlebach:
World renowned rabbi, Shlomo Carlebach, personally did more than any other Jew in modern times in regard to keruv (outreach), and embracing those on the margins. Reb Shlomo is personally credited with bringing tens of thousands of Jews back to Judaism and spirituality. What was his secret? Getting involved! Reb Shlomo placed himself on the margins in order to reach out and empower those around him. He went to the marginalized places where Jews were. If that meant going to prisons … Shlomo packed his guitar. If it meant to Buddhist ashrams and temples … Reb Shlomo went singing the most Jewish of songs. And it worked! Reb Shlomo truly understood the mitzvah of “leaving the world more Jewish than you found it.”
So there you go. Whilst he was spreading the antinomian teachings of the Ishbitzer Rebbe through his kiruv evangelism, some TOM-Js, it seems, think Shlomo Carlebach was making the world more Jewish!
Grace-inspired Messianic Jews who promote simple truths from the teachings of the eternal rabbi will most likely be viewed with suspicion by many in the TOM-J movement. Those who point out that our rabbi brought a new Torah which we seek to follow will be accused of antinomianism. Yet through our rabbi Yeshua, grace-inspired Messianic Jews share the same faith as all the righteous men in the Bible. Sadly this “new Torah” and “new priesthood” which he freely gave us seem almost intolerable for some of the TOM-J movement.
However, those Orthodox Jews who promotes the teachings of an antinomianist rebbe are hugely popular with some in the TOM-J wing of the Messianic Movement. No matter that rabbi Leiner distorted the plain meaning of the Bible. No matter that he tried to turn some of the most sinful men in the Bible into righteous men. Some TOM-Jers, it seems, can tolerate his interpretation of the Torah.
Whilst many in the TOM-J movement will casually throw out accusations of antinomianism against grace-inspired Messianic Jews and Gentile Christians, their praise of Shlomo Carlebach reveals that ultimately they cannot avoid the same charge.
[1] Shaul Magid ‘Hasidim on the Margin: reconciliation, messianism and antinomianism in Izbica/Radzin Hasidim’ (University of Wisconsin Press, 2003) p.xii
[2] Jerome I. Geldman ‘The Fear, the Trembling and the Fire (University Press of America, 1994) p.52
[3] Ibid.
[4] Ibid. p.53
[5] Paul Steinberg, Janet Greenstein Potter, “Celebrating the Jewish Year: The Fall Holidays: Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, Sukkot (Jewish Publication Society, 2007), p.187
[6] Joanne Steinhardt, American Neo-Hasids in the Land of Israel, Nova Religio (Volume 13, May 2010) p.27
“Grace-inspired Messianic Jews”, a euphemism for Evangelical Christians of Hebrew heritage who, following the antinomian traditions they acquired through their conversion – or birth (if they were born to Christian parents) – to Christianity, have adopted the Christian view of G-d’s gift Torah to the Jewish people as a burden that G-d had to send Yeshua to save mankind from, and have rejected G-d’s instructions for the Jewish people in favor of total assimilation into the dominant religious culture and theology that once birthed them spiritually.
Gene would your definition of a Messianic Jew now include Derek Lehman but not Joseph?
What is your working definition of ‘Christian’ Gene?
“Gene would your definition of a Messianic Jew now include Derek Lehman but not Joseph? ”
That would be correct. However, do note that Derek’s conversion in no way changes who Joseph continues to be, what he believes, practices, and promotes and what he actively opposes, so it is irrelevant to this discussion. Joe, however, remains a halachik/ethnic Jew if his mother is a halachik Jew, or a Christian of Jewish/Hebrew heritage and nobody is taking this away from him if that’s the case.
“What is your working definition of ‘Christian’ Gene?”
Someone who identifies with, believes, practices and promotes whatever dominant Christian stream of religious expression (and theology) he’s primarily part of (in Joe’s case, I suppose it would be Protestant/Anglican Evangelicalism).
Anatomy of a regular Joseph post:
1. Make a preposterous title
2. Invent some ridiculous charges against Messianic Jews
3. Present one’s own anti-Jewish view of Israel’s spiritually, relationship Torah, and opposition to Jewish religious expression as normative for Messianic Judaism (while propping up one’s own Evangelical Christianity as G-d’s will for the Jewish people).
3. Look for skeletons in every closet, and if none can be found, simply conjure up dubious links and connections to people or take quotes out of context, and than built up a case against Messianic Jewish leadership and believers based on the alleged misconduct, words or beliefs of some unrelated third party.
Anatomy of a generic Gene reply to a Joseph post.
1. Feign offence
2. Make overblown accusations of anti-semitism, anti-Jewishness
3. Ignore the main point and attack motive, style, use of examples
4. Attack Messianic Jews who are not TOM-Js in an attempt to have exclusive ownership of the description Messianic Jew
“1. Feign offence”
Gev, you mean I am not really offended by the false accusations and distortion Joseph spews out, but merely pretend to be?
“2. Make overblown accusations of anti-semitism, anti-Jewishness”
Christianity’s unfortunate anti-Torah stance has historically been fueled by anti-Judaism and antisemitism. Static historic facts is not overblowing anything, but rather stating reality, however unpleasant is may appear.
“3. Ignore the main point and attack motive, style, use of examples”
The main point of Joseph articles is the same in much of his other articles on this theme – G-d’s Torah has been done away with as a standard for holy living and Messianic Jewish are fooling to practice it as an obligation. Everything else is filler.
“4. Attack Messianic Jews who are not TOM-Js in an attempt to have exclusive ownership of the description Messianic Jew”
Messianic Judaism has long moved on from Hebrew Christianity opposition to Torah or Jewish practices, but some Brit. Hebrew Christians didn’t get the message and want to stem the tide.
Well said Gev, Gene I find your characterisations absurd and offensive
“Gene I find your characterisations absurd and offensive”
I am sorry you feel this way, Norster.
Well said Gev!
>> So long as you’re convinced it’s okay, you can break the Torah to do God’s will.
Guys, do you really think that Torah-loving folks like me believe that? We don’t.
Guys, do you really think that Torah-loving folks like me believe that? We don’t.
No. I think you are quite clearly convinced that you should keep the written laws of the Torah, which as an Israelite you still feel convinced you should keep. This is fine.
However, I do think that this same movement which preaches the value of Torah for all believers takes a promiscuous antinomian rabbi as a role model for kiruv evangelism.
I don’t understand why this is, hence this post.
But I’m not referring to Judah or Israel here personally (N.B. for new readers = Judah and Israel are commenters, I’m not talking about Biblical kingdoms!) – I am referring to those who promote Carlebach, who popularised Ishbitzer antinomianism, whilst at the same time unfairly discarding half the Messianic movement as “antinomian”.
Messianic Judaism has long moved on from Hebrew Christianity opposition to Torah or Jewish practices, but some Brit. Hebrew Christians didn’t get the message and want to stem the tide.
So posted Gene.
Sadly, as a British Messianic Jew, I can attest to the truth of that. Messianic Judaism is a dream for SOME in the UK, and a cause of nightmares for the majority of JBYs
Sadly, as a British Messianic Jew, I can attest to the truth of that. Messianic Judaism is a dream for SOME in the UK, and a cause of nightmares for the majority of JBYs
Glasspole, no it is the reality for all grace-inspired Messianic Jews, including some Torah-observant and some non-observant believers.
Joseph, Hebrew Christian anti-Torah-ism is a minority view in the U.S., where most Messianic Jews (for now) at least pay lip-service to Torah’s validity for all Jews today, if not practicing many of its aspects for themselves (hypocritically, which is unfortunate).
I’ve never promoted Leiner in any of my online posts. Not sure who has, so I’m not sure it’s ok to say that TOMJs promote one contrary to their message of teshuvah.
I preach teshuvah. It’s the same message Yeshua preached. Bring everything back to Torah. Bring all doctrines, theologies, teachings, revelations, and all questions, back to Torah. Inquire of Torah deeply. Find Messiah in Torah, in order that you may know this real Jewish, Torah observant Messiah who lives in you and desires to live through you. That is true teshuvah, and the gospel is that Messiah has come to redeem you to eternal life by his merit, and makes the way of true teshuvah possible for you.
Shalom,
Israel
I agree with Judah and Israel, I think you have taken a very small brush to try and paint a very large picture…
Side note:
I did notice how you pit Messianic Jews against Torah Observant Messianic Jews…
Would it not be easier to just call yourself a Christian? Since your theology and doctrines are no different than what the Gentiles(Christianity) made up?
Majority of the people who hold to the religion of Messianic Judaism is the basis of continuing the original Faith of the Apostles and the Messiah, not converting to a gentile religion… if Messianic Judaism and Christianity were the same, why have two different names?
“if Messianic Judaism and Christianity were the same, why have two different names?”
Joseph has an honorable, if a bit naive in the actual steps it would take to accomplish it, desire of redeeming Christianity’s baggage of antisemitism and ridding it of supersessionism, but to him it also includes remolding what he considered “renegade” Torah-non-discarding Yeshua Judaism back into Christianity he grew up in (or specifically, Evangelicalism).
That’s remarkably fair of you Gene – nice one.
If derek lehman is now more a messianic jew than joseph is then gene’s messianic jewish definition is an absurdity. The anti-missionary charge of non-jews pretending to be jews doesnt sound so fantastical anymore. Wonder what moishe & penina make of it? Joseph is jewish drek is not.
“Joseph is jewish drek is not.”
LOL
Drek isn’t Jewish, he’s a gentile, pretending to be Jewish and pretending to be a trainee Rabbi!
“pretending to be Jewish”
Levitt, may be you’re the one pretending to be Jewish here?
If it’s true that he’s just converted to Judaism, then how could he call himself a rabbi all these years?
It is like me applying for a job as a driving instructor before I’ve passed my driving test.
“If it’s true that he’s just converted to Judaism, then how could he call himself a rabbi all these years?”
I agree – it was wrong of him to call himself “rabbi.” However, Derek himself readily acknowledges his own naivete as he matured to the point where he’s today.
Yeah but he still calls himself a rabbi, and he’s one day into the conversion. To be a real rabbi you need to go to a yeshiva, such as the rabbi at your Messianic synagogue.
I appreciate his right to call himself a rabbi because he has had the proper training, just as I respect the right of Rabbi Daniel Zion to call himself a rabbi:
http://www.netivyah.org.il/English%20Web/MidrashaArticles/rabbi_zion.html
But I mean, really, it’s not sending a good message out to the traditional community that you can become a believer in Yeshua and then call yourself a rabbi from the moment you start your online course.
It would be a bit like me trying to convince Christians to come to my authentically Christian church, and calling myself an authority on Church history and tradition whilst having been ordained via this ministry:
http://openordination.org/
“But I mean, really, it’s not sending a good message out to the traditional community that you can become a believer in Yeshua and then call yourself a rabbi from the moment you start your online course.”
Joseph, you make a valid point here. I agree, that no-one without proper training should call himself a rabbi. Still, Derek’s mistake in this area has more to do with immaturity of Messianic Judaism, and doesn’t take away from his desire to join out people, just like our own mistakes do not invalidate everything else we may do.
Of course, and Derek has many sensible things to say, and some interesting opinions on things. But then he goes on about how Hebrew Christians are “diluting Abraham’s seed” and are worse off spiritually than non-believing Orthodox Jews, and it just gets people’s backs up.
All we end up thinking is: we were born Jewish, many of us know rabbis, and the only reason we or our families aren’t part of Jewish communities any more is that we were excluded. It is natural that Jewish believers in Yeshua end up in churches, and yes you’re right we should make sure we maintain our Jewish identity, but it is tremendously difficult at times.
Then someone comes along who hasn’t had this experience and is not Jewish by birth or upbringing, and decides he wants to be a rabbi and an expert on Judaism. I can understand this far even if I’m theologically uncomfortable with it, but then to use this position to try and make life more difficult for Messianic Jews in churches – it doesn’t make sense.
“to use this position to try and make life more difficult for Messianic Jews in churches – it doesn’t make sense.”
Joe, how does your life – or that of Christians of Jewish heritage who attend churches – become more difficult as the result of what Derek is doing (whatever it is you think he’s doing to make it so)?
If a convert is already a convert before he comes to convert (Shavuot 39a) then Rabbi Derek Lehman has been a Jew for a long long time, only recently confirmed by halachic ceremony, since conversion is only a legal recognition of an already existing reality. His being a rabbi then only followed after he was first a convert to Judaism as a follower of the Way. The legal recognition then is only a Torah-mandated confirmation for the benefit of the community. We do HaShem an injustice in failing to recognize His role in conversion, and bringing that convert to the authorities for confirmation.
Shalom,
Israel
“convert is already a convert before he comes to convert ”
Israel, Derek was not a convert BEFORE he came to conversion – and he’ll tell you that himself. That’s where you guys, at “Jerusalem Council” site go astray (besides being pretend-Jews yourselves) – supposing that mere practice of Torah by Gentiles makes them de-facto Jews – no Judaism believes such a thing. But, I don’t wish to veer into this area again.
Joe, how does your life – or that of Christians of Jewish heritage who attend churches – become more difficult as the result of what Derek is doing (whatever it is you think he’s doing to make it so)?
Because when he writes:
http://derek4messiah.wordpress.com/2009/11/13/searching-for-rebekah/
“Churched Jews should not kid themselves. Their children and grandchildren will not identify as Jews. Churched Jews are shrinking Israel, diminishing Abraham’s seed, and working against God.”
it says to me that he doesn’t really understand why Jews attend churches, nor seem aware at all of the shortcomings of many Messianic fellowships, nor appreciate the role of the Jewish community in excluding Jews in the first place.
I doubt very much Derek is being malicious when he says this. However I do think Derek is being incredibly naive as to how “the community” functions in practice. I also think it is morally wrong to blame Messianic Jews in churches for situations they may not have desired. On top of this, there are plenty of Messianic Jews in churches who are being taught that they are no longer Jewish – of course they are wrong in this, but it does not mean they are working against God!
Now when Derek says these opinions as his own personal opinions, that’s one thing. To do so as a Gentile though is to show a lack of appreciation for people’s reality. And to claim to be a Messianic rabbi whilst doing so really takes some chutzpah.
If you could convert to Judaism by measuring how much chutzpah you have, then Derek would definitely qualify. But you can’t, so he doesn’t.
You don’t get it. You totally and completely miss what we’re saying. Part of Torah observance IS going through the ritual of conversion itself as outlined clearly in the Torah. So therefore the saying is correct: one who observes the Torah (on the matter of conversion) IS a true convert in every way according to orthodox Jewish halachah. You can’t possibly deny that unless you deny that conversion isn’t in the Torah. Oy vey, Gene, why don’t you actually read our materials and ask us questions for once instead of assuming our positions are this or that? And our leadership is made of those born Jews, and the ones we are accountable to are themselves former orthodox Jewish rabbis who have smicha and have served on orthodox Jewish battain din before they themselves even became believers. So please stop your assumptions about who and what we are, and just talk to us directly ok?
Joseph,
“If you could convert to Judaism by measuring how much chutzpah you have, then Derek would definitely qualify. But you can’t, so he doesn’t.”
Are you saying that it’s not possible for someone to convert to Judaism?
“Are you saying that it’s not possible for someone to convert to Judaism?”
Yes, that’s is what he’s saying:) I think he’s wrong since we see conversions all the tiem, however – personally, I also think it’s not possible to become a Hebrew – rather, only an official proselyte to Judaism and a Jew by FAITH and practice by placing oneself under a covenant through official means. However, converts ARE not of the same status as native Jews. They can’t marry cohanim, they can’t preside on beit dins or conversions of others, they can’t be installed as kings, depending on minhag certain prayers may be off-limits to them, convert can marry a mamzer, while Jews can’t, they don’t inherit a tribal affiliation, they can’t use their father’s name as part of their Hebrew name, etc.
What’s truly mind-bending is that ultra-Orthodox conversions to Judaism were – until last year – controlled by an evangelical Christian convert!
http://roshpinaproject.wordpress.com/2010/01/15/billionaire-evangelical-christian-convert-to-judaism-guma-aguia/
Gene I sent you an email via your website.
Simple question. Are gntile followers ok jesus the same kalat hamashiah as messianic jews, tomj or not?
Yes, Yeshua is the same – however, some have distorted him and his teaching to make him unrecognizable as the True Messiah to the Jewish people, some made him look like a false prophet who came to annul G-d’s commandments for the Jewish nation, and some even have imagined him as an enemy of the Jews or Judaism.
“”Why do you call me, ‘L-rd, L-rd,’ and do not do what I say?” (Luke 6:46)
One more bit from scripture for the anti-Torah crowd:
Proverbs 28:4
“Those who forsake the Torah praise the wicked, but those who keep the Torah resist them.”
“Those who forsake the Torah praise the wicked, but those who keep the Torah resist them.”
Right, so if your interpretation were true = if the TOM-J leadership genuinely believe this then what is the UMJC doing praising Carlebach?
We do not advocate turning aside Torah and replacing it with lawlessness. That is not progress.
We appreciate the positive role of Torah as our guide, and are now upgrading to Moshiach’s Torah.
‘UMJC doing praising Carlebach?”
Irrelevant to discussion – the author of whatever article you quoted is praising his apparent love for other Jews, not officially endorsing this man, certainly not the fact that he rejected Yeshua. Focus, Joe, focus!
Focus, Joe, focus!
Haha
But come on Gene, if I wrote an article praising Martin Luther’s devotion to Scripture or John Chrysostom’s poetic liturgy, you’d be the first to point out that it isn’t wise to praise these men on a Messianic Jewish blog, given their terrible anti-Semitism.
Now surely the same standards apply to Messianic Jews & traditional Judaism as they do to Messianic Jews & traditional Christianity.
So gene you accept all true talmdei yeshua are the bride of moshiah, that being the case why the need for derek ‘converting’! Is it so he wont have to throw himself out of his messianic synagogue for being a gentile wannabe.
“why the need for derek ‘converting’”
According to Derek’s post on his blog, “I went through this because my family feels called to belong to the Jewish people and we have been welcomed into the Jewish people by our many friends and rabbis.”
So, as you can see, his reasoning have nothing whatsoever to do with one being or not being part of the Bride. It’s nothing to do with salvation. It has nothing to do with relationship to G-d, or Yeshua’s sacrifice.
“Is it so he wont have to throw himself out of his messianic synagogue for being a gentile wannabe.”
Reread his reasoning that I posted above again. As I mentioned elsewhere, I’d trade some Gentiles I personally know who want to be part of my people for some Jews that I also know who do not deserve to be called “Jews” but work against our people.
Reread his reasoning that I posted above again. As I mentioned elsewhere, I’d trade some Gentiles I personally know who want to be part of my people for some Jews that I also know who do not deserve to be called “Jews” but work against our people.
Gene, that is replacement theology 101!
“Gene, that is replacement theology 101!”
Joe, I said that I’d only trade SOME – replacement theology replaces everyone, while converts were always allowed in Judaism.)
Besides all that, Romans 11:19 says that some Jews are cut off so that Gentiles could be grafted in the place that becomes available. Derek is the perfect example:)
Besides all that, Romans 11:19 says that some Jews are cut off so that Gentiles could be grafted in the place that becomes available
Derek is part of the Romans 11 Olive Tree anyway, by virtue of believing in Jesus.
“Derek is part of the Romans 11 Olive Tree anyway, by virtue of believing in Jesus.”
True – but he underwent a second “spiritual reprogramming” to become the natural branch:) You don’t mind, right?
True – but he underwent a second “spiritual reprogramming” to become the natural branch:) You don’t mind, right?
Not at all, I myself am due for an appointment at the “spiritual reprogramming” clinic, they’re gonna make me a natural woman.
‘Not at all, I myself am due for an appointment at the “spiritual reprogramming” clinic, they’re gonna make me a natural woman.”
TMI – too much information, Joe:)
“Derek is part of the Romans 11 Olive Tree anyway, by virtue of believing in Jesus.”
I see a new movement …..
Torah Observant Supersessionists.
Those who “replacement” or “fulfillment” or “completion” of the promise made to the Jews because they are Torah Observant Gentiles!?!?!??!
“Torah Observant Supersessionists.”
Levitt, this already exists – there are many Gentile groups which practice Torah in the absence of Jewish people and believe that they replace Jews (or huge chunks of Israel – whole 10 tribes out of 12). Nothing new.
Levitt, this already exists – there are many Gentile groups which practice Torah in the absence of Jewish people and believe that they replace Jews (or huge chunks of Israel – whole 10 tribes out of 12). Nothing new.
Then what is the difference between this approach and the MJTI?
The MJTI categorises Jewish believers in Jesus into two neat camps:
Messianic Jews = anyone who observes Torah, including Gentile proselytes
Hebrew Christians = anyone who doesn’t observe Torah, including Jews
In fact, given their New Testament-justification of food laws and Sabbath laws, the MJTI is closer to the Seventh Day Adventism than to any form of Judaism.
Just another Jew wannabee…..
Gene that is an outrageous accusation to make & lashon hara, i’m not anti-torah, i am anti the misuse of torah. I rejoice that Torah has brought me to moshiah & moshiah keeps Torah for me. I delight in Torat Adonai.
“Gene that is an outrageous accusation to make & lashon hara, i’m not anti-torah”
David, where did I accuse you of anything? If you are not anti-Torah – yishar koach!
“moshiah keeps Torah for me”
So that you don’t have to obey G-d yourself by keeping Torah on your own as well as Jews are commanded by Yeshua himself? That makes you anti-Torah, IF that’s what you believe. If you don’t believe this, disregard this post, you are not anti-Torah.
John 14:15 “If you love me, you will obey what I command.”
Boy, you go away for a few hours and you come back to a load of new arguments….Who has time to read it all?
Joseph, Levitt, Gev,
By the way you write it looks like you guys think that grace is a NT patent…You should spend more time in the OT, the foundation is over there, not on mars hill…..
We agree, there’s loads of grace in the Old Testament, Gev tells me that 1/3rd of the New Testament is quotes or paraphrasing of the Old Testament. Grace goes all the way back to Noah, Abraham, Moses, etc.
It is by grace one is born Jewish. (that is the false gospel of salvation-by-Jewish-identity-apart-from-Messiah in Paul’s day and still exists even now in greater Judaism)
Thanks spend lots of time in OT.
You could have fooled us…..LOL!
By the way you write it looks like you guys think that grace is a NT patent…You should spend more time in the OT, the foundation is over there, not on mars hill…..
Don’t forget the Even Newer Testament:
Postmissionary Messianic Judaism: Redefining Christian Engagement with the Jewish People
Great book – I don’t consider it scripture or authoritative for anything – just a good read. However, I already held most of the views on Ekklesia and Messianic Jewish continuity in the Torah as expressed in the book, even before I heard either of Kinzer or of his books.
Joseph,
You are wrong on MJTI. They hold a distinction between Jewish and gentile believers, not between MJ and HC.
So, if Dan is correct, MJTI is Hebrew Christian’s best friend:)
How right you are….as long as they go where the Gentiles are, the churches….
Hmmm. They do blur the lines somewhat by letting Gentiles define themselves as Jewish rabbis the moment they begin the MJTI conversion programme.
That’s may be so, I was always very cautious about Messianic conversions and remain so to do this day, or so called “rabbis’ (whether born Jewish or not) however, as far as Messianic Jewish scholarship goes MJTI is without parallel in the MJ world. They are on very good terms with Christianity and you, Joseph, would do well to support such a great effort by other MJs.
All I ask is they appreciate that Jews in pews is not the worst idea in the world. I can’t fault the MJTI for how they relate to Gentile Christians, they’re fine. It’s how they relate to non-observant Messianic Jews that I oppose. They think the Church won’t notice their legalism if they only try to apply it to Jewish believers.
This is why the MJTI is uniquely successful amongst Messianic groups in getting it’s message out amongst Christians who would otherwise consider One Law groups to be basically 7th Day Adventist-style cults.
And this is why the One Law-ers can’t stand the MJTI, because at least they recognise that the same standards apply for Jews and Gentiles in Yeshua’s covenant.
The MJTI makes such an unfair division between Jewish believers in Jesus and Gentile believers in Jesus, in my eyes – that’s why I don’t like it, at least with One Law-ers you know where you stand, and there’s some consistency.
“The MJTI makes such an unfair division between Jewish believers in Jesus and Gentile believers in Jesus, in my eyes – that’s why I don’t like it”
Joe, no more than your own BMJA (of which you are a member of the board, right?) makes a division, actually even more so, where Gentiles are not only not allowed on the board, but they can’t even become full members in general!
http://www.bmja.net/chai232a.htm
Of course, I support BMJA effort to preserve the identity of their community, but this hypocrisy is the curse of believers everywhere and must stop.
“at least with One Law-ers you know where you stand, and there’s some consistency.”
Like I said, you only support them because enemy of your enemy is your friend – not because of their beliefs (they believe Gentiles MUST observe Torah), or their view of Christianity (as pagan).
Gene, the BMJA doesn’t make anyone submit to Torah laws, that was my point. We don’t compel anyone to do x or y. But I see what you’re saying.
“Gene, the BMJA doesn’t make anyone submit to Torah laws, that was my point.”
UMJC/MJTI doesn’t make anyone submit to Torah. They only teach that Jewish believers should continue to observe it. There’s no compulsion not even a hint of it. Just because I think you Joe should live a Jewish lifestyle, it doesn’t mean that I am going to MAKE you do this (I have better things to do):)
“But I see what you’re saying.”‘
Exactly, Joe – BMJA practices separation, just as any other Jewish group out there has to do so (even J4J hires only Jewish missionaries to work on frontlines). Preservation of uniqueness between Jews and Gentiles necessarily requires making some type of distinction and boundary – otherwise MJs and Gentiles will assimilate into each other, with end result being that Jews will be no more. That’s why G-d gave us our own land and is regathering us there, instead of spreading us our further.
Church attendance is encouraged by the BMJA.
“Church attendance is encouraged by the BMJA.”
If that’s officially the case, and they do not make preference toward messianic congregations vs churches for Jewish believers to attend where MJ congregations exists, it’s very sad and that speaks volumes about them still being very much the Hebrew Christian Alliance of Great Britain, even though they have officially renamed themselves to distance themselves from assimilationist faith expression.
However, the fact remains, Joe – Gentiles are forbidden from becoming full BMJA members (and board members), the organization you are on board oft. I think that if you want to be true to yourself and your ongoing criticism of UMJC or other MJ works that uphold Torah and ongoing distinction between Gentiles and Jews in the Body, you should start to actively voice your opposition to such an “unfairness” that exists in your organization during the next board meeting.
Be sure to us know here how it goes when make the case for full membership of Gentiles both on the board and full membership of BMJA.
It’s not true Gene, we have a Gentile on our board member – if you’re married to a Jew you can be on the BMJA committee.
One day, when the church has dropped all anti-Semitism and all Israel believes in Yeshua, of course there’ll be no need for the BMJA. It is a practical necessity – a temporary one – we do not consider ourselves better or worse than other Christians, simply a place for Messianic Jews to reflect on issues relevant to us.
“It’s not true Gene, we have a Gentile on our board member – if you’re married to a Jew you can be on the BMJA committee.”
A Gentile who is married to a Jew is your example of acceptance of Gentiles as board members? Common, Joe – that’s laughable! If that’s your level or prerequisite of acceptance of Gentiles on board or to full membership, UMJC is much more open to Gentiles than your own BMJA – one of their regional directors is a Gentile (there could be more, but that one I know personally)!
“One day, when the church has dropped all anti-Semitism and all Israel believes in Yeshua, of course there’ll be no need for the BMJA. ”
Which is when Yeshua returns – but until that day comes, your accusing UMJC or other Torah-faithful organization of differential treatment of Gentiles rings hypocritical to say the least.
Great book for those who believe in fantasy…
Joseph, why don’t you start a thread discussing this abomination?
Nah, we’ve already given Kinzer’s work far too much attention, I am astounded that there is now an international conference about his book, it’s a boring read anyway.
But yes I’ll change the subject soon
“his book, it’s a boring read anyway.”
I thought it was a great book from the moment I read even the first paragraph, but I can see how it would be boring to those who only read it to find fault with it or relate little to Judaism in general or the ideas put forth therein. It’s true worth and significance to the Messianic Judaism’s future will reverberate for years to come and I already see it inspiring young MJs to take hold of their inheritance.
still pick it up quite often to re-read portions of it.
What is the one great lesson a reader can take away from PMJ?
“What is the one great lesson a reader can take away from PMJ?”
That Messianic Jews must be true to our calling as Jews, live as Jews, worship as Jews and with Jews, be a witness to our own people not just by our words, but also by our very lives, while having fellowship with our Gentile brethren based on mutual love, respect and support.
Gene,
Where in Rom. 11 does it say that a wild branch becomes a natural branch?
It doesn’t – it was said in jest, and it doesn’t speak about conversion to Judaism and it wasn’t even my point to Joseph. Just that I expressed my wish to replace some Jews who do harm to Israel with some Gentiles who love Israel and wish to join her.
Achh, you guys still don’t like to define anything or be specific, Tell me, what is each of your’s definition of “Torah” or “Torah observance” ?? That would give us a clearer picture you are arguing for or against or not.
Spew a verse or two is useless with it.
Sorry Donna.
Torah = the laws of Moses, the first judge of Israel, stipulated in Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy and Numbers.
Torah-observance = trying to keep all these laws in the 21st century without bothering with the Levitical sacrifices or the punishments (from fleeing to a city of refuge to death-by-stoning) prescribed by God along with the laws.
Torah observant is not Torah enforcement…You guys better get it right….
Dan, has God done away with all the punishments in the Mosaic Torah?
No, they all still stand, and if Israel was under theocratic rule, they would be activated – but Yeshua did conquer death, as only he could, for those who place their faith in him – 1 Corinthians 15:55.
The punishment is the consequence of braking the law, not the law itself. I get stoned for breaking the adultery law, not for breaking the “stone” law….
No, they all still stand, and if Israel was under theocratic rule, they would be activated
Along with a death penalty for Christian missionaries if Shas or the Kahanists got their way.
“The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.” We must remember what the apostle Peter told us under the inspiration of the Spirt of holiness; “For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment. This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority.” 2 Peter 2:4-10 NIV http://tinyurl.com/y3xg29w
Abraham is our example he was justified by G-d’s grace through faith;
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
Romans 4:1-3 NIV http://tinyurl.com/y4wyaye
So what do we learn from Abraham who was a gentile from Ur in Southern Mesopotamia who believed G-d and G-d counted him among the righteous and declared him righteous. Not because of circumcision because he had not yet been circumcised, although he was circumcised in obedience to G-d later and not because of obeying the law because the law was given through Moses and as we know that came much later. Abraham became the first Jew and is the father of faith. Abraham was saved by G-d’s grace through faith; the same way we are saved today by G-d’s grace through our faith in Messiah Jesus and His sacrificial death on the cross as full payment for all our sins. The Lamb of G-d is without spot or blemish and His death was adequate to satisfy G-d’s justice and righteous wrath. “It is finished!” The penalty for all sin has been paid. Messiah is our Redeemer, the Lord our Righteousness! Thanks be G-d for His mercies and loving-kindness! (See Ephesian 2:8-9)
Gen. 26:5 OOPS!
Faith leads to obedience….
David, it’s a good thing sin ended!
“It is finished” is not an accurate statement when there is still sin in the world. The JEWISH messiah is not supposed to die for the sins. The biggest proof of this is the NT itself.
Matt 16:21-22 “From that time on JC began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life. Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. ‘Never, Lord!’ he said. ‘This shall never happen to you!’”
Why did Peter, who was filled with a holy spirit (a very high level of prophecy – see verse 17), not know anything about the messiah dying for our sins?
It’s not a JEWISH concept, it’s a pagan one, that’s why.
Yeh but then Yeshua says…
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+16:23&version=NIV
..If you are marriad to a Jew…..LOL! x 10…..
Shades of Dauermann……..This messianic thing is a complete mess…..
Dan, I thought it was funny too – and you’re right, it’s a – hypocritical – mess. Joe, you have no leg to stand on if you are going to harp on US MJs treating Gentiles differentially when you own BMJA excludes them (unless they happen to be married to Jews)!
Dan & Gene: The BMJA doesn’t have any exclusive theology like the MJTI does. It’s an organisation performing a necessary function in our modern society.
The African and Carribbean Evangelical Alliance represent the interests of black believers in Yeshua:
http://www.crb.homeoffice.gov.uk/umbrella_body/a/african_and_caribbean_evangeli.aspx?lang=cy-gb
This is great, and should be encouraged.
However, if the ACEA started saying black people were under a different law to white people, then I would strongly oppose its teachings as an affront to grace.
This is a cop-out of course. An organization rules and regulation automatically point to its theology….Hope you are not out of straws to grasp…LOL!
How do you mean? I don’t think our theology differs that much from the ACEA’s.
Joe, facts remain facts – you are excluding Gentiles from the board and full membership, and no blame shifting, reasoning or excuses will whitewash this fact. You also practice exclusive theology – in fact, it’s worse since you made your OWN man-made law that keeps Gentiles out by stating that Gentiles cannot become full participants and decision makers as Jews in your organization, while they can do so in UMJC (btw, MJTI is an educational institution, not a membership organization one can join – let’s not confuse when comparing). Also, UMJC theology merely states that Jews have different OBLIGATIONS than Gentile members (and not different benefits!) – something we can see clearly in Acts 15.
The BMJA is a national representative organisation for British Messianic Jews, what’s wrong with that other than it is your chosen stick to try beat Joe with now.
The BMJA has an inclusive theology so has many TOM-Js within it as well as Messianic Jews who view Torah differently and also Hebrew Christians. The BMJA only wants to know that applicants are part of a credible worshipping community of Yeshua’s disciples.
As far as Messianic Fellowships and congregations associated with the BMJA, anyone who is a disciple of Yeshua can join them. This is where the issue lies, not in a national representative body that advocates the concerns and views of Messianic Jews to the wider community. Gene your congregation restricts its tefillin club, you have a meeting that Gentiles are not allowed to come and pray at, true?
“Gene your congregation restricts its tefillin club, you have a meeting that Gentiles are not allowed to come and pray at, true?”
We only restrict leadership positions, aliyahs to read the Torah, and who is counted for minyan (to recite certain prayers that require it, not praying in general) to Jews. While our Tefillin Club usually only has Jewish men in it, if a Gentile came to the meeting to pray with us he’s allowed, of course, and we will not even make an issue if he asks us to show him how to put on a tefillin (of course, only as a demonstration and as permissible in Judaism for a potential convert as a training exercise – although we do not offer such conversions and I am making a halakhic point only).
Joseph,
So I’m supposed to believe that Peter reached a level where G-d Himself revealed him visions…and thirty seconds later, he’s possessed by satan?
Does this sound logical?
By what you posted it also does not deffers much from the MJTI…LOL!
My definition for you theology will be: Animal-soup theology…LOL!
By what you posted it also does not deffers much from the MJTI…LOL!
My definition for you theology will be: Animal-soup theology…LOL!
Dan, it does! I believe Messianic Jews and Gentile Christians are under grace alone, whereas the MJTI believes Messianic Jews are under grace plus Torah, and Gentile Christians are under grace alone.
Joseph,
Everyone is under both. After all God gave us both, and he does not change His mind. Unless of course you believe in a different God? (no offense intended..)
“Everyone is under both.”
Technically speaking, yes. Gentiles are also under Torah (the 5 books of Moses first include laws other than those given later to Israel), just somewhat different aspects of it (Acts 15), considering that not everything applies equally to everyone.
You also practice exclusive theology – in fact, it’s worse since you made your OWN man-made law that keeps Gentiles out by stating that Gentiles cannot become full participants and decision makers as Jews in your organization.
So? I can’t make decisions for the Christian Women’s Alliance:
http://christianwomensalliance.org/
Does that mean they’ve created a man-made law to exclude me?
The BMJA is exclusive to some degree, sure. I’ve not complained about the MJTI excluding Gentiles – they can include/exclude who they like.
What I do object to is the idea that in one covenant God has given two separate laws: one to Jews and one to Gentiles in Messiah, or that Gentiles can call themselves Jewish rabbis and kvetch about non-observant Jews in pews.
Joseph, does the Christian Women’s Alliance allow for husbands of women to sit on the board or become full members AND attend their conferences and retreats?
Hallelujah, Joe,
You are ONE LAW after all…..LOL!
Poor us Messianics, what a mess……
LOL, Dan, can’t stop laughing…. whew… OK, better now – that was obvious from the beginning, Joe is One-Law (except when it comes to his BMJA organization). No wonder he’s always sticking up for you guys:)
Yes, One Law: Messiah’s Law!
Gene,
would you call ALIAH LATORAH a benefit, or an obligation?
“would you call ALIAH LATORAH a benefit, or an obligation?”
Dan, for Gentiles it’s neither – it’s irrelevant since they are not under Torah.
You said (not different benefits)…
And I thought that you always held the Torah as beneficial….I guss you learn something new every day……
Hey Joe, don’t think that you are off the hook just because Gene and me have some differences…LOL!
Hey Joe, don’t think that you are off the hook just because Gene and me have some differences…LOL!
Maybe you two should agree on what “Torah” means before tag-teaming
Our differences are not about what the Torah means, but who it is applied to. But then, Torahless people will not understand….
Our differences are not about what the Torah means, but who it is applied to.
So you do differ about what the Torah means then.
I said that Torahless people will not understand…..
I have Torah, it’s led me to Moshiach’s Torah, which is the better Torah – though the first Torah was good this Torah is better, and there’s no need for two torahs. One Law only: Moshiach’s Law!
Ha, Ha, two Torahs…..Shall we expect two messiah’s also? Ooops! I forgot, it has been don’e already….You Joe are all about new stuff, right?
One Messiah two comings.
Two Torahs? do you know how hard it is to dance at Simchat Torah with two scrolls?…..LOL!
Moshiach Torah is not written on a scroll, it’s written on our heart, everyday is a Simchat Torah in Moshiach
So, let me understand….The one who kept the Torah that was written on the scroll perfectly, is now decided that after all it was just a mistake so He wrote another one, but not on the scroll, on our heart, but never really told us what it is for?
OK, I understand now…..
He kept the Torah perfectly and through this was able to bring us a new Torah, he told us exactly what it was for, to honour God through love and bear one another’s burdens in Moshiach. The last one wasn’t a mistake, it was designed to reveal sin, but couldn’t provide full atonement, it was good but it wasn’t as good as this Torah of Moshiach.
Where do you get your theology, Wall-Mart? God never meant to provide full atonement through Torah. like always you are reading your agenda into scriptures.
Where do you get your theology, Wall-Mart?
Now really Dan, isn’t all this just Seventh Day Adventism with Amish costume for Hebrew Christians?
How did you figure this out? you don’t look THAT smart on you picture here…..LOL!
“you don’t look THAT smart on you picture here”
That is bitchy Dan, let’s see your mug shot then!
If you judge people by their photo then the explains alot about your modus operandi… ops I’d better put LOL to amerliorate a harsh comment.
No wonder they say you Brits have a dry sense of humor……Ooops! here I am judging again, silly me…..
No wonder they say you Brits have a dry sense of humor……Ooops! here I am judging again, silly me…..
You didn’t laugh at your own joke this time – kol hakavod!
How did you figure this out? you don’t look THAT smart on you picture here…..LOL!
Me-ow!
Nosson, “Come now, and let us reason together, saith HaShem; though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.” Isaiah 1:18 JPS (Hebrew Bible)
Nosson writes; >>>David, it’s a good thing sin ended!
“It is finished” is not an accurate statement when there is still sin in the world. The JEWISH messiah is not supposed to die for the sins. The biggest proof of this is the NT itself. …
It’s not a JEWISH concept, it’s a pagan one, that’s why.<<>>The Lamb of G-d is without spot or blemish and His death was adequate to satisfy G-d’s justice and righteous wrath. “It is finished!” The penalty for all sin has been paid. Messiah is our Redeemer, the Lord our Righteousness! Thanks be to G-d for His mercies and loving-kindness! (See Ephesian 2:8-9)<<<
HaShem made Moshiach who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of HaShem in Moshiah.
Nosson, “Come now, and let us reason together, saith HaShem; though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.” Isaiah 1:18 JPS (Hebrew Bible)
Nosson writes; >>>David, it’s a good thing sin ended!
“It is finished” is not an accurate statement when there is still sin in the world. The JEWISH messiah is not supposed to die for the sins. The biggest proof of this is the NT itself. …
It’s not a JEWISH concept, it’s a pagan one, that’s why.<<<
Nosson are you calling Moses who wrote Torah a pagan? Are you saying the Hebrew prophet Isaiah is pagan? Was the Hebrew prophet Daniel a pagan? Are you saying King David is a pagan? Moses, Isaiah, Daniel, David, Zechariah and other Hebrew prophets all wrote of Messiah. Some wrote about His death, some explain His death was atonement for sins, some wrote about His resurrection and the righteousness He brings and others wrote about His eventual reign of peace upon the earth and many other things concerning Messiah.
The idea of redemption, salvation, atonement, the sacrificial death of the Lamb of God who is without spot or blemish who would come and take away the sins of the world is taught both in the Tanakh and New Covenant scriptures and was always a part of G-d's eternal plan from the beginning.
Who told you the concept of Messiah dying for the sins of His people is a pagan one?
Sorry to bother you but you are wrong. There is no need for a dead Messiah to atone for our sins. This is a typical error of people who have no idea what a Messiah is for and how individual sins can be atoned for.
David, there is NO JEWISH backing that the messiah’s role is to come and die for our sins. This is a pagan concept, not a JEWISH one.
If you want to claim JC as a JEWISH messiah, then you’d better use JEWISH terminology and train of thought. That’s all I’m saying.
Atonement for sins in JEWISH thought is NOT through the dying of a man.
Ezekiel 33:11 “I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live.” In other words, G-d wants us to admit our sins and repent for them by speaking with Him as in (Hosea 14:2) “Take words with you and return to the LORD. Say to him: Forgive all our sins and receive us graciously, that we may offer our prayers.”
G-d clearly instructed us to repent to HIM and HIM ALONE. There is no mentioning of blood sacrifice by JC dying on the cross. NONE This is a pagan concept foreign to Judaism.
Nosson, In Isaiah chapter 53 the Hebrew prophet of G-d describes the Lord’s Servant who be wounded, crushed and have stripes because of our iniquities (i.e. sins). HaShem (G-d) will place the iniquity of us all on His Servant like “a lamb that is led to the slaughter”. His Servant (Messiah) became the sacrificial lamb for the sins of His people. Messiah is our Passover Lamb, His blood cleanses us from our sins and protects us from eternal death and the judgment of G-d, if we believe in Him.
Isaiah chapter 53 http://tinyurl.com/y3boock
But he was wounded because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed.
6
All we like sheep did go astray, we turned every one to his own way; and HaShem hath made to light on him the iniquity of us all.
7
He was oppressed, though he humbled himself and opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before her shearers is dumb; yea, he opened not his mouth.
8
By oppression and judgment he was taken away, and with his generation who did reason? for he was cut off out of the land of the living, for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due.
David, Read the entire book of Isaiah again bro. G-d’s servant is clearly the ”
The remnant of Israel…with no deceit…in their mouths.” (Zephaniah 3:13).
It’s interesting to note how Isaiah 53 mentions “he will see his offspring and prolong his days…”
Tell me David, what kind of deal did JC get by having his “days prolonged” if he’s “eternal” (he is god)?
Tell me David, did JC have any offspring?
And you still believe Isaiah 53 is speaking about JC?
Gene, your attack on the BMJA is astonishing because you complain that Joe does such things with other organisations. I order to get a line of attack on Joe you are doing what you condemn him of! That, is hypocritical.
Gev, you’re too easily astonished.
I didn’t attack BMJA – in fact, if you read a bit more carefully or at all you’d see that I wrote that “I support BMJA effort to preserve the identity of their community.”
What I do not support however is Joe’s hypocrisy that would slam UMJC for excluding Gentiles (which is not true AT ALL, as some of their directors are Gentiles), while at the same time he himself is fully behind BMJA’s policy of not allowing Gentiles to join the board or to become full members with voting rights (which I have no problem with). Joe’s excusing the exclusivist policy as a necessity until, in his own words “church has dropped all anti-Semitism and all Israel believes in Yeshua.” I understand and support that view – but this hypocrisy of accusing others of one himself is doing has got to stop.
What I do not support however is Joe’s hypocrisy that would slam UMJC for excluding Gentiles (which is not true AT ALL, as some of their directors are Gentiles)
My problem with UMJC/MJTI teaching is that their teachings that non-observant Jews are disobeying God, not who has membership in their organisation. The BMJA teaches no such thing!
It’s the difference between supporting indigenous black Christian congregations, and saying that there are different laws for black and white Christians.
“It’s the difference between supporting indigenous black Christian congregations, and saying that there are different laws for black and white Christians.”
Joe, if you read Acts 15 you’d see that the apostles and the Holy Spirit have ruled for very different – AND MUCH EASIER – Torah requirements for the Gentile followers of Yeshua, expressly exempting them from most of the non-morality-specific aspects of the Mosaic Law. We also read that Gentile believers were relieved and were actually glad to hear that they were not obligated the same way Jews were (they didn’t have mitzvot-envy). So, Messianic Jews who continue to believe the apostles and the Holy Spirit, and respect their rulling, should be praised for continuing in making it easy for the Gentiles to enter faith, rather than be accused of having “different laws” as if it was some type of discrimination.
“My problem with UMJC/MJTI teaching is that their teachings that non-observant Jews are disobeying God”
You have a problem with G-d, not UMJC/MJTI.
You have a problem with G-d, not UMJC/MJTI.
No. The UMJC/MJTI are not God.
I have a problem with Seventh Day Adventists dressed like the Amish who try to make Jews feel guilty about not practising Christian Sabbatarianism.
“No. The UMJC/MJTI are not God.”
Neither are you to overrule G-d’s Torah.
Joe, if you read Acts 15…
Well, Gene, this is brilliant.
You’ve admitted Acts 15 is about the Torah, and that Peter is talking about the Mosaic Torah laws. Good.
Let’s look at what Peter says:
“Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.
So no difference between the requirements for Jew and Gentile.
Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”
Peter’s whole reasoning is that Torah was an unbearable yoke for Jews, and to enforce it on believers is testing God! Jews couldn’t keep Torah so how can Jews now enforce it on Gentiles?
I can’t see how you can accept Peter’s conclusion about Gentiles & Torah without paying any attention to how he justifies it.
Neither are you to overrule G-d’s Torah.
Gene, God decided from eternity that the Mosaic Torah would be upgraded to Moshiach’s Torah.
This is because God is in Heaven, and does whatever he pleases.
“So no difference between the requirements for Jew and Gentile.”
Joe, in salvation matters there’s no difference – this exactly is what Peter was trying to get at, since some were falsely claiming that Gentiles needed to become Jews in order to be saved (or be acceptable to G-d).
However, you Joe forgot about Acts 21:-24 -25 where it’s obvious that Jews were expected to continue in Torah but Gentiles only had to observe four specific items:
“everybody will know there is NO TRUTH in these reports about you [Paul], but that you yourself are LIVING IN OBEDIENCE TO THE Torah. As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.”
Try to spin the above!
As you can see your opposition to Torah for the Jewish believers goes against the position of the Jewish believers and the Holy Spirit.
Gene, Paul says quite clearly in 1 Corinthians 9 that although he is free, he makes himself a slave situationally for the sake of the gospel. He is Torah-observant where appropriate, and he isn’t where he doesn’t need to be.
In any case, the observance as described in Acts 21 is no longer possible as the Temple is no longer standing!
“He is Torah-observant where appropriate, and he isn’t where he doesn’t need to be. ”
This is a false accusation and defamation of Apostle Paul making him into a liar and hypocrite. In Acts 21:-24 -25 he had to prove that 1) he NEVER taught this to the Jews AND 2) that he WALKED obediently to Torah. He had to prove BOTH of these things. You don’t claim to walk according to Torah if you only do this when the situation requires.
This means that this is how Paul lived full time, instead of putting on a mask as appropriate, as you misinterpret him to mean. To complete the picture of Shaul the Torah-faithful Jew we can combine the above with his other statement:
Acts 25:8
“I have committed no offense either against the Torah of the Jews”
For you to turn Paul around, ignore his statement above, and then claim that he freely violated Torah when Jews were not looking is preposterous beyond belief.
Acts 25:8
“I have committed no offense either against the Torah of the Jews”
For you to turn Paul around, ignore his statement above, and then claim that he freely violated Torah when Jews were not looking is preposterous beyond belief.
If I went to Mexico for a week and kept to all the Mexican laws, I could turn around and say with some justification:
“I have committed no offence either against Mexico or the Mexicans”
It would not make me a hypocrite if I then went to Puerto Rico for a week and there observed the laws of the Puerto Rico, committing no offence against puertoriqueño citizens.
Just because the laws are different in different situations does not make you a hypocrite for adapting to them.
“It would not make me a hypocrite if I then went to Puerto Rico for a week and there observed the laws of the Puerto Rico, committing no offence against puertoriqueño citizens.”
Is this your life’s philosophy? Is this how Christians are to live as well? Go to strip-clubs when around sinners, and then go to church and PRETEND to live piously when around Christians? The depth of your justification of hypocrisy is amazing.
Joe is this (I have a problem with Seventh Day Adventists dressed like the Amish who try to make Jews feel guilty about not practising Christian Sabbatarianism.) copyrighted? I really like it.
Moshe says:
Joe is this (I have a problem with Seventh Day Adventists dressed like the Amish who try to make Jews feel guilty about not practising Christian Sabbatarianism.) copyrighted? I really like it.
Nope, it’s not copyrighted, feel free to use it!
“Nope, it’s not copyrighted, feel free to use it!”
Joseph, that’s your opinion, but we should be interested in G-d’s opinion, not our warped ones. Exodus 31:17 “It will be a sign BETWEEN ME and the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL FOREVER…” G-d did not make this deal/contract/covenant with ANYONE EXCEPT THE JEWISH PEOPLE. So anyone who is trying to be a part of this contract without being a part of Am Israel will have serious problems.
Just in case you were wondering, the official definition of copyright is: “the EXCLUSIVE legal right to reproduce, publish, sell, or distribute the matter and form of something”
I think Ex. 31:13 and 31:17 makes it EXCLUSIVELY TO JEWS AND JEWS ALONE. This is NOT my opinion, it’s G-d’s!!
Joseph, that’s your opinion, but we should be interested in G-d’s opinion, not our warped ones. Exodus 31:17 “It will be a sign BETWEEN ME and the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL FOREVER…” G-d did not make this deal/contract/covenant with ANYONE EXCEPT THE JEWISH PEOPLE. So anyone who is trying to be a part of this contract without being a part of Am Israel will have serious problems.
Fine, but obviously Christians believe differently.
What I was pointing out is that some Christian adhere to a sabbatarian doctrine because Christ kept the Sabbath. Within the Messianic movement, there are TOM-J groups who try to enforce sabbatarianism for this reason.
They are not doing it for the same reason you are, Nosson. If they genuinely believed it was all about Sinai then they would be Orthodox Jews. They keep the Sabbath to imitate Christ and to honour all of the Ten Commandments. They do it for Christian reasons & reasons of social identification, not because they are practising Judaism.
I thought you’d be grateful for me clearly distinguishing people who genuinely practice Judaism and people who pretend to. Nevermind!
Joseph, if “They keep the Sabbath to imitate Christ and to honor all of the Ten Commandments” then again, you have a point. However, I personally knew several 7th Day Adventists who genuinely believe they have replaced Israel as G-d’s people.
This is the reason why a fine line can easily be crossed and there should be an obvious distinction.
Tell me something, JC was circumcised, I don’t see many of his gentiles followers who would circumcise themselves because did it? This is why I don’t believe they’re doing it for “simply reasons”, rather ulterior motives.
Tell me something, JC was circumcised, I don’t see many of his gentiles followers who would circumcise themselves because did it? This is why I don’t believe they’re doing it for “simply reasons”, rather ulterior motives.
Yeah! Christian sabbatarianism is about way more than just shabbat. The Subotnikis of Russia even had their own shechitas!
Nosson, have a read about the Subbotnikis:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subbotniks
However, I personally knew several 7th Day Adventists who genuinely believe they have replaced Israel as G-d’s people.
This is the reason why a fine line can easily be crossed and there should be an obvious distinction.
So you’re saying Christians can be sabbatarians so long as they’re not supercessionist?
["So you’re saying Christians can be sabbatarians so long as they’re not supercessionist?"]
Joseph, No, I was saying that if they’re intentions were purely to recognize Shabbat because JC did it, this is fine. But that’s not the case,. They try to observe Shabbat because they think they’ve somehow replaced Am Israel, disguising it as “we do it because JC did it.” This is not ok.
They try to observe Shabbat because they think they’ve somehow replaced Am Israel, disguising it as “we do it because JC did it.” This is not ok.
I see what you mean. I don’t think there’s a disguise either way. Some Gentile groups genuinely think they are Jews, like the Black Hebrew Israelites. But then they make no claim to be Christians. Christian Sabbatarians will see themselves as spiritual Israel, but not necessarily call themselves Jews. Most Messianic Sabbatarians will consider Israel to still mean Israel.
Gene’s definition of Christian:”Someone who identifies with, believes, practices and promotes whatever dominant Christian stream of religious expression (and theology) he’s primarily part of.”
What does this mean, it seems that Gene’s rather ambiguous definition of a Christian has nothing to do with regeneration through the kappara of Yeshua, it is someone who has an ideological commitment to a denominational theology (assumedly one of the historic Gentile state churches).
Does this mean that you have to believe the whole theological package in order to deserve the title Christian, or is there a percentage of doctrines that you need to believe, if so what is the percentage. Gene himself believes lots of things that Christians believe [even using his definition of Christian], albeit that he may express them in different way.
This definition also includes attendance of a place of worship, “primarily part of”. So Gene’s definition of Christian is that of nominal state denominational churches. Elsewhere Gene has admitted that all true followers of Yeshua, both Jews and Gentiles are the bride of Messiah, so is there deliberate misrepresentation of his own views here as he knows that all who experience Messiah’s atonement are connection in some way.
Gene uses a definition of Christian that many born again evangelical Christians would reject and goes on to talk about them as if they fit his category.
Lets do away with the word Christian for a moment, lets ask what connects and what disconnects all those redeemed by Yeshua’s kapparah?
“What does this mean, it seems that Gene’s rather ambiguous definition of a Christian has nothing to do with regeneration through the kappara of Yeshua”
Gev, I don’t know what you went all theological on my here – as if what you’re saying is all news to me. My definition of a “Christian” presented here at your request is my no means an all encompassing one and was not addressing spiritual implications, but merely sociological ones. Rather it was meant to delineate the tangible differences between those who would be better identified as Hebrew Christians vs those who more aptly fit the Messianic Jewish category.
Gev,
How about giving us YOUR definition of a Christian?
Depends on if you want the cultural one or not.
Re: The British Messianic Jewish Alliance
Having served on the BMJA Council for 9 years, I can attest to the number of applications for Membership from non-Jewish people. . . . there are at least as many from Gentiles as there are from Jewish people. This is a good thing. However (there’s usually one of these!). . . . if non-Jewish Believers were given full Membership, Voting and Council rights, then the BMJA would rapidly become a body of mainly Gentile Wannabes, with a few Jewish people to give it some kind of credence.
Non-Jews are not discriminated against in any way.
On another note, it is not a “Fellowship” or gathered expression of the Guf HaMoshiach, so is not subject to the “all one in Moshiach” type of argument.
The BMJA is the oldest such Alliance in the world, founded in 1866; it grew out of the Hebrew Christian Prayer Union, which came out of what is now the Church’s Ministry Among Jewish People.
In the UK, unlike the US, there are very few Messianic Jews and very few Messianic groups / fellowships / congregations; even fewer stand-alone congregations, as the logistics and demographics simply do not allow for them.
In many senses, then, comparing the UK Messianic situation with the US situation is like comparing apples with lemons.
Things that are different are never the same
Glasspole – I fully support BMJA’s efforts to preserve the Jewish identity of their organization and advocate on behalf of their Jewish members.
Joseph,
I came to the conclusion that as far as theology your blog is quite weak, and argue back and forth is just a waste of my time. You guys are much better in your “National inquirer” role of sppiling the goods on the Haredi community….Good luck!
I agree Dan. One can bring proof after proof from Scripture, and people just want that JC. They have to have it no matter what. It’s a true shame, because the “truth is ONLY ONE”.
Either the Jews are right or xtrians and MJ’s are right, but not both.
Our sages are very clear regarding the messiah’s role when he comes; there is NO mention of a convenient “second coming” and there are no gray areas.
JC DID NOT FULFILL EVEN ONE of those prophecies, yet xtrians and MJ’s still believe in them.
“There is no worse blind man that doesn’t want to see”
Nosson, your proofs are no proofs at all. It just gets boring to run around in circles disproving your claim after claim (which is too easy to do). You used to believe in Yeshua as Messiah, and then the Adversary has snatched whatever little seed you were lightly holding. Unlike my own Jewish people who are blinded to him (but who will later accept the Redeemer) and whose blindness has paved the way to your learning about the Master as a Gentile, you have voluntarily rejected the Messiah and later laughed at the atonement G-d provided through his blood. I don’t imagine HaShem will look favorably at you at the Judgment Seat, friend.
Our sages are very clear regarding the messiah’s role when he comes; there is NO mention of a convenient “second coming” and there are no gray areas
And Abraham didn’t know that God would rescind his command to sacrifice Isaac until the point of acting upon his faith. In fact, Abraham didn’t know that he would have a son at all when God said to him “lech lecha”.
The Torah and the Prophets don’t give us a full revelation, but they encourage us to look to God with faith and trust in him to reveal what is his in his own time.
And in time he’ll reveal Yeshua to the world, only some of us know now, but you’ll find plenty in the Bible hinting towards Yeshua’s death and third-day resurrection – think of Hosea 6:2.
” There is no worse blind man that doesn’t want to see”
When was the last time you look in your mirror?
Gene, your words are ridiculous. Yes, as a child with no sechel, I believed what I was taught just like any child does. But “when I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me.” (1 Corinthians 13:11).
If my thoughts (they’re not mine, they’re our sages) are so easy to disprove, then do so. Don’t conveniently avoid them.
Joseph, come on man Hosea 6:2. This is an obvious allusion to the 3 2,000-year periods.
In other words, on the third (2000-year period), Am Israel will be restored!
So what’s the difference between you guys and other Christian Sabbatarians?
Joseph, 7th Day Adventists are NO WHERE NEAR KEEPING SHABBAT. Besides, they view themselves as a replacement of Israel and the “new Israel” which is completely contrary to G-d’s word. Therefore, their entire existence is based on a lie.
Nosson – neither are the Messianic Jews who use laptop computers in order to display song lyrics in their worship services, or those who drive to shul.
The Christian Sabbatarians are Christians who believe God commanded all Jews and Gentiles to keep the food laws and sabbath laws. TOM-Js are one of the newer Christian Sabbatarian groups in town – they have a distinct Amish flavour to them.
Joseph, you may believe what you may, but G-d has other opinions on Jews who are required to keep Shabbat (no driving, listening to music, etc.) and don’t. You have to do teshuvah for this.
Exodus 31:14 “Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone [a Jew] who desecrates it must be put to death;”
Ezekiel 20:13 “and they utterly desecrated my Sabbaths. So I said I would pour out my wrath on them…”
Ezekiel 20:16 “because they rejected my laws and did not follow my decrees and desecrated my Sabbaths. For their hearts were devoted to their idols.”
Nosson, how come the Levite priests worked on Shabbat?
Surely Melchizedek priests may too
“Melchizedek priests”
Only Yeshua is the Melchizedek priest. Your are a Melchizedek priest only in your imagination, Joe:)
Joseph as to the Levites working in the temple on Shabbos, what did they do that is not allowed?
Gene, are you saying that Malkitzedek was not a malkitzedek priest??? How do you knwo there was only one??
“Gene, are you saying that Malkitzedek was not a malkitzedek priest??? How do you knwo there was only one??”
I don’t – I was just saying that Joe is not one of them:)
Dan, what do you make of the Seventh Day Adventists?
Don’t no nothing about them.
They claim to be Christians who keep the Sabbath.
“They claim to be Christians who keep the Sabbath.”
And you claim to be a Jew who doesn’t? So? There will always be contradictions to norm.
Joseph, 7th Day Adventists are NO WHERE NEAR KEEPING SHABBAT. Besides, they view themselves as a replacement of Israel and the “new Israel” which is completely contrary to G-d’s word. Therefore, their entire existence is based on a lie.
Nossom,
Our sages are very clear…?
When was the last time you read the Talmud, and then compared it to Rambam, Ravad, and Saadia Gaon?
Exactly… our sages had many opinions and diverse interpretations on that Torah and the prophets when in comes to Messiah.
Guys, you don’t believe the Talmud (only when it’s convenient) remember? Therefore, when I say sages, I mean ONLY THE TANACH.
We have to compare apples to apples here.
Guys, you don’t believe the Talmud (only when it’s convenient) remember?
Nope! I certainly don’t.
“Guys, you don’t believe the Talmud (only when it’s convenient) remember? ”
Nosson, you do exactly the same!:)
Do you believe Talmud when it says: “Converts are hard on Israel as a blight”? (Gemara in Yevamos 109b) – or do you need some rational explanation for what it means? Do you know that sages offered many different explanations of the above, some of them not so kind to converts?
Joseph,
If you don’t believe the Talmud, then you’re a heretic (G-d forbid); it’s that simple. No different that a Sadducee.
I wouldn’t be so proud of being a heretic if I were you.
“Nope! I certainly don’t.”
Than again, Joseph, you don’t seem to believe in Torah or apostle’s teaching on it either.
No different that a Sadducee.
C’mon Nosson, a Sadducee, really?
I believe the resurrection of the dead.
The Sadducees didn’t.
That’s why they were sad, you see.
Gene, please don’t take verses from the Talmud and quote them out of context like you do with Tanach.
The idea in this chapter of Mishnah is about the gentiles who converted when coming out of Egypt with Am Israel. They gave their livestock to their families which was used to pursue the Jews.
For in the plague of hail, all Egyptian livestock perished; If so, where did Pharaoh get 600 horses from?
From the converts…This is why it states it. Please, don’t tell a half-truth (which is a lie). Quote the verse IN ITS CONTEXT
Than again, Joseph, you don’t seem to believe in Torah or apostle’s teaching on it either.
Torah & NT are pretty incompatible with the Talmud – that’s why I don’t believe in the Talmud.
Joseph, you know exactly what I meant about Sadducees. They didn’t believe in the Oral Law. And like them, if you don’t change your way of thinking, your descendants will be around in 50+ years.
Nosson, that’s not AT ALL how most of our sages interpret that passage, limiting it just to the time period as you did.
Joseph, you know exactly what I meant about Sadducees. They didn’t believe in the Oral Law. And like them, if you don’t change your way of thinking, your descendants will be around in 50+ years.
Simply untrue.
“Simply untrue.”
Don’t worry, Nosson – Joe’s descendants will probably be Torah observant Messianic Jews:)
["Torah & NT are pretty incompatible with the Talmud – that’s why I don’t believe in the Talmud."]
Wait a minute, let me get this straight. So you’re saying that you’d rather believe in the NT (a work of man) which is incompatible to the Talmud, rather than a G-dgiven Oral Law?
Do you realize what you’re saying? Let me ask you this:
Do you wear a kippah/yamulke?
Do you wear tzitzit?
If you’re married, does your wife light Shabbat candles?
Do you make the “hamotzi” blessing when you eat bread?
Did you celebrate a Pesach seder?
Do you have a mezuzah on your doorpost(s)?
Do you have a Torah in your synagogue?
Did you celebrate a bar mitzvah?
Did you have a bris milah?
Were you married under a chuppah?
Did you give your wife a ketuvah?
There are many more, but if you answered yes to any of the above questions, then your train of thought is hypocritical. Why? Because it’s all from the Oral Torah (Talmud) which you despise and don’t believe in.
Gene, I sure hope so.
Nosson, Joe doesn’t do any of the things you listed, doesn’t believe in having to do any of them, and he most likely won’t do any of them in the future, barring a change of heart, so your point is lost on him:)
He’s a Christian [of Jewish descent] and proud of the fact. At least he’s committed to this 100% – I’ve got to give him that!
Do you wear a kippah/yamulke?
If it’s an appropriate situation, then yes I would. If I’m at a funeral, or at friends’ weddings, bar mitzvahs, etc, or if I go into a shul I think it’s appropriate. I don’t wear a kippah for religious reasons, I respect other Messianic Jews if they choose to though.
Do you wear tzitzit?
No.
If you’re married, does your wife light Shabbat candles?
Not married no.
Do you make the “hamotzi” blessing when you eat bread?
No.
Did you celebrate a Pesach seder?
Yes, but very different to yours. With Yeshua as our paschal lamb, ours actually made sense!
Do you have a mezuzah on your doorpost(s)?
No.
Do you have a Torah in your synagogue?
I don’t go to a synagogue regularly, so no.
Did you celebrate a bar mitzvah?
No, a bar mitzvah is for those under the law. I’m not under the law but under grace.
Did you have a bris milah?
I was circumcised, yes, not as part of an Orthodox ceremony though.
Were you married under a chuppah?
N/A
Did you give your wife a ketuvah?
N/A
Joseph,
You do understand that the very fact that you’re Jewish today is due to your ancestors’ rejection of xtianity, right?
I fear your children won’t have this same fortune as they intermarry and kill off your Jewish bloodline. All because they “believe”.
“I fear your children won’t have this same fortune as they intermarry and kill off your Jewish bloodline. All because they “believe”.”
Assuming G-d gives Joe kids, I wouldn’t worry about them “believing in Yeshua” as the cause from ceasing to be Jews, as I would be concerned for Joe cutting himself off from his people through total assimilation into Gentilism he’s been pursuing from his birth.
You do understand that the very fact that you’re Jewish today is due to your ancestors’ rejection of xtianity, right?
That is the same logic as me saying that slavery is okay because the only reason Jews remained separate in Egypt before Sinai was because we were enslaved and oppressed.
I fear your children won’t have this same fortune as they intermarry and kill off your Jewish bloodline. All because they “believe”.
Why do you care if my children are Jewish are not? Having children is only a distant theoretical possibility for me at the moment – I might be infertile for all I know.
Assuming G-d gives Joe kids, I wouldn’t worry about them “believing in Yeshua” as the cause from ceasing to be Jews, as I would be concerned for Joe cutting himself off from his people through total assimilation into Gentilism he’s been pursuing from his birth.
Well if that’s the case then why wouldn’t I just do precisely that: assimilate?
It would be very easy to do.
The fact I openly identify as Jewish immediately negates your point.
Also, Nosson & Gene, is that how you see Jews: cogs in a machine which makes more Jews?
I’m not worried about how my ancestors were and how my descendants will be Jewish. It’s all in God’s hands what he wants for my life.
God could create Jews out of stones if he felt like it, he doesn’t need me to do so.
Gene, I think your point is what I was aiming at. Thanks for nailing it for me.
“The fact I openly identify as Jewish immediately negates your point.”
You and every Christian of Jewish descent that I know – whose children are your regular church going Christians for whom being Jewish means nothing beyond an interesting factoid about their ancestors, who will marry other Christians and will have Christian kids and who will have nothing Jewish to point to in their life save for a footnote on who their grandparents were. I see this ALL the time.
Joseph, having children is the very first commandment given to man. Genesis 9:7 “As for you, be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth and increase upon it.”
By the way, If JC fulfilled the entire Torah to the letter, why didn’t he fulfill this commandment?
“As for you, be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth and increase upon it.” By the way, If JC fulfilled the entire Torah to the letter, why didn’t he fulfill this commandment?”
Nosson, surely you know that Yeshua is called a Groom and that he will marry his bride, the righteous of all nations (starting with Israel) when he returns (there will be a wedding feast, you know – too bad you won’t be invited).
So, he’ll fulfill that commandment, as a good Jew that he is, on a grand scale worthy of him.
Nosson, I’m sure it’s good to have kids!
Gene, it is true that there is difference of opinions, but that does not make EVERY opinion valid, or imply that every opinion was acceptable. For example, I know of no case where one Rabbi will say that something is a command/prohibition of the Torah and another says that it is allowed. Likewise within theological issues there is a limit as to what is allowed/acceptable. Dead Messiahs, coming twice is outside the pale. So are a lot of things Christians believe. They are outside of the Talmud and outside of the Torah.
Actually Nosson has a point here.
Gene, if you’re going to have a go at me for the possibility of not having children with a Jewish identity, why don’t you be consistent and have a go at Yeshua too?
“I know of no case where one Rabbi will say that something is a command/prohibition of the Torah and another says that it is allowed. ”
Really? Well, it is forbidden to eat kityinot in Ashkenazi communities by a rulling of Ashkenazi rabbis a while back, while Sephardi Jewish rabbi never issued such a prohibition. There you go right there – just one small example.
Joe, read my earlier reply to Nosson on Yeshua being a Groom – who’s yet to have a wedding which is being prepared for him to meet his bride!
Gene, according to your theory (way out in left field), then you can’t call JC the “perfect lamb”.
How can you say someone has fulfilled all of the commandments to the letter when he clearly hasn’t done so, according to your warped theory?
How can you claim someone as messiah when he hasn’t fulfilled the prophecies regarding messiah. If you say “he’s going to do it in his second coming”, then don’t claim him to be the messiah until he does it.
It’s like someone saying: “I’m the president of the US, you have to wait until 2012 when I run and win to see. But if you believe in me now and give me your (financial) support now, your reward will be great!”
How many people would give this candidate their money? How many people would call him president NOW, even though he hasn’t done what he’s supposed to? Even if he seems like the logical choice and based of mere faith. So why do it for JC, who has NOT FULFILLED ANY MESSIANIC PROPHECIES IN TANACH?
Joe, read my earlier reply to Nosson on Yeshua being a Groom – who’s yet to have a wedding which is being prepared for him to meet his bride!
Yes, and how do you feel about Yeshua marrying someone only partly Jewish – the ekklesia?
“It’s like someone saying: “I’m the president of the US, you have to wait until 2012 when I run and win to see. But if you believe in me now and give me your (financial) support now, your reward will be great!””
Nosson, LOL – in U.S. presidents can be voted for UP TO two terms. So, one can be a president in one term, choose to go away or not – still be called a president – and then come back for a second term! And president usually raised financial support for second term campaign while still in office in the first term.
[Really? Well, it is forbidden to eat kityinot in Ashkenazi communities by a rulling of Ashkenazi rabbis a while back, while Sephardi Jewish rabbi never issued such a prohibition. There you go right there – just one small example.]
Gene, again, another vain attempt to bring a logical argument. Either you know the truth and are hiding it, or you’re simply an ignoramus.
This IS A CUSTOM, not halachah! Customs are just that, customs. We follow these customs as strict as halachah (at times), but they’re not halachah.
Come on Gene, I know you know this.
“Yes, and how do you feel about Yeshua marrying someone only partly Jewish – the ekklesia?”
He’s marrying Israel or Jerusalem – a Jewish city – ONLY the New Jerusalem is specifically called a Bride. True, it will contain the righteous of all nations who have attached themselves to Jews. So, in a sense, he’s marrying a Jewish woman that brings along her Gentile servant girl that has attached herself to her mistress – like Jacob’s wives:)
Gene, again, you’re vainly attempting to divert the attention of my point. Just in case you didn’t get it (I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt) my point is:
You can’t presently call someone something (in this case, president) when he has fulfilled the requirements to be one (ran for office, got elected, etc.).
In the same way, you can’t claim JC is the messiah, when HE HAS NOT FULFILLED ANY OF THE PROPHECIES WHICH MESSIAH WILL FULFILL ACCORDING TO TANACH and conveniently say “he will do so in his second coming”
Is this clearer now, Gene.
Dan, why didn’t you finish my quote? I said “Our sages are very clear REGARDING THE MESSIAH’S ROLE WHEN HE COMES” There is no contraction anywhere regarding this! Other small details, maybe, but none on his role!
To expound even more on what Joseph said, Abraham believed in the resurrection. He had to, since God provided Isaac in order to continue the covenant, Abraham knew that somehow god will resurrect Isaac, an important link in the chain of redemption.
No Dan, Abraham had a perfect faith in G-d, regardless of what He instructed him to do. It’s not the faith he had that G-d would resurrect his son, it was the simple faith that G-d knew what He was doing, regardless of his own logical conclusions.
It’s not the faith he had that G-d would resurrect his son, it was the simple faith that G-d knew what He was doing, regardless of his own logical conclusions.
Which is why many Jews accept that God did eventually resurrect his own son.
Joseph,
Good for them.
Gene, you need to read me carefully. First the issue of kitniyos is not in the talmud, it is (like the prohibition of polygamy for Ashkinezim) a decree. No one says the Torah prohibits them, nor even that the Talmud does. It is only a question as to whether to accept a decree that originated in one area or not. You actually have allowed me to prove the point. NO ONE denies that polygamy and kitnayos are Biblically and Talmudically allowed. This is an example of a minor difference in customs. Of those there are many. Much different then a difference about something in the Tenach/Torah on a fundamental belief of Judaism.
Moshe – read me carefully too. You said that you know of “no case where one Rabbi will say that something is a command/prohibition of the Torah and another says that it is allowed.”
But I showed you that this wasn’t true – surely the rabbis issues their prohibition of the kitnayot based on Torah as they always do – they wouldn’t invent stuff right when it comes to prohibitions, right?
Gene, and who are we to argue against tzaddikim? Would you argue law with a Supreme Court Justice? No, you’d look pretty ridiculous wouldn’t you. So what makes you think you can argue with tzaddikim? Ezeh geivah!!Rachmanah Litz’lan.
I am interested in Gene’s response to this as he frequently complains about me doing the same thing he’s doing: disregarding the “sages”…
“I am interested in Gene’s response to this as he frequently complains about me doing the same thing he’s doing: disregarding the “sages”…”
Only when it comes to Yeshua, Joe – only when it comes to Yeshua – only because he’s the Tzaddik of tzaddkim:)
If they get it wrong on Yeshua then why do you care what else they say?
Nosson, the Tzaddik of tzaddkim Yeshua haMaschiach’s rulings take precedence over anyone else’s rulings. You do know that in Talmud not every opinion carries the same weight, right? Therefore, BH writings are an extension of Talmud (Torah study) for me – actually, one of its most important sections, written by the great sages who knew Messiah personally:)
“If they get it wrong on Yeshua then why do you care what else they say?”
If you parents are wrong about one, albeit important thing, do you disregard them on the rest and disobey them at every turn?
Gene, come on brother. There are so many inaccuracies in that book it’s a joke. It’s obvious the church manipulated it.
Plus, NO JEW IS EXEMPT FROM KEEPING THE TORAH; even your “tzaddik of tzaddikim”. That’s your statement, not our sages. And we’re commanded, by G-d, to follow our tzaddikim, not Gene or his “tzaddik of tzaddikim” theory.
But they’re my parents, the rabbis aren’t – I can’t see how you can talk to Moshe the way you do if you genuinely believe he has clerical authority over you.
“But they’re my parents, the rabbis aren’t ”
Our sages are our parents too – they are our ancestors and therefore our fathers too (great Jewish concept, you know – even BH has it).
“I can’t see how you can talk to Moshe the way you do if you genuinely believe he has clerical authority over you.”
Moshe doesn’t have authority over me – he’s not my rabbi or Rebbe, it’s not an army where I have to salute a higher ranking officer:)
Moshe doesn’t have authority over me – he’s not my rabbi or Rebbe, it’s not an army where I have to salute a higher ranking officer:)
Yes, well said Gene!!
Guys, so let’s get this straight, Hashem has revealed his messiah to gentile pagans and hid it from our holy tzaddikim? Is this what I’m supposed to believe? Is this what G-d tells us?
Amos 3:7 “Surely the Sovereign Lord does NOTHING WITHOUT REVEALING IT to his servants the prophets (aka tzaddikim).”
Humm…whom should we believe, G-d or people in line with Gene’s theory?
“Guys, so let’s get this straight, Hashem has revealed his messiah to gentile pagans and hid it from our holy tzaddikim? Is this what I’m supposed to believe? Is this what G-d tells us”
Well, many Jews accepted him when he came, including many tzaddkim of the first century. But if you put it this way, Nosson, yes – it’s true, per Psalm 118:22 “The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone.”
“Humm…whom should we believe, G-d or people in line with Gene’s theory?”
I believe G-d – strange, is it not?
Gene, “including many tzaddkim of the first century”. Which tzaddikim are these?
Psalm 118:22 “The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone.”
Have you ever read this verse in Hebrew? It’s in the Hallel you know. It says “L’rosh pinah” to the cornerstone, not “has become the cornerstone.”
Read it again, Gene.
Nosson, Chabad disagrees with you (surely, they do not have bias for Yeshua, right?):
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/6418/jewish/Chapter-118.htm
“The stone which the builders scorned has become the chief cornerstone.”
How do you explain all the unsuccessful prophecies over the centuries made by the rabbis, if your tzadikim are the prophets?
Joseph, please name them, don’t just pull them out of thin air. You say there are tzaddikim that made many prophecies. Ok, so name them.
So then who are the prophets of our generation? Benny Hinn? That preacher from Orlando who swore the Lord spoke to him through his holy spirit and revealed to him that Fidel Castro would die in the mid-90′s. He said this on live TV!!
Is Castro still alive? If yes, then he’s a “false prophet and dreamer”!
What do I care about some meshihists from Chabad? Are they the only chasidic group? Are they a picture of what orthodox Judaism is all about?
I don’t believe in any movement, regardless of who they are, that believes that the messiah has already come. This is false! Do we have world peace yet (Isaiah 11)?
Nosson, ouch – go easy on the Chabad, they love Jews more than you ever will and this is what I respect them for. Surely they do not associate Tihillim 118:22 with Messiah, right?
Besides, you’re missing the point – that Psalm is about Yeshua who was rejected by many of my people but is the Messiah regardless. Give me a link to another authoritative translation if you don’t like Chabad’s, if you must.
Gene, I love Chabad, but I’m not talking about them, I’m talking about the meshihistic movement that call themselves Lubavitchers. They are two different movements, don’t confuse them. Please, give Chabad the respect it deserves. Heck, there’s a chabad house in just about every CORNER of the world. Pun intended.
“What do I care about some meshihists from Chabad? ”
Yes, you “love Chabad”:)
Chabad and Lubavitchers are two different groups? That’s news to me.
Gene that was comment #7777 on rpp – surely of some gemara-related significance
Joe, pls elaborate – not sure what you mean. What about comment 7777?
As in it’s the 7777th comment we’ve had on the blog. You get the stats page when you sign in. I like this kinda stuff
Was my comment #7777? Well, what does that tell you, Joe:)?
Clearly this tells me that you were right all along Gene, on everything
Joe, well done, mate – you are not far from the truth after all:)
No, Gene, I did not say “Chabad and Lubavitchers are two different groups”, you said that. I said Chabad/Lubavitch and meshichists are not the same. The latter may call themselves and look as Chabadniks, but they are a different group of the holy Lubavitcher Rebbe’s followers.
Nosson,
Why read it again? It is quite clear. What part of אבן מאסו הבונים היתה לראש פינה you don’t understand?
Or do you mean that the stone they rejected they gave to Rosh Pinah in the galilee?…..
Dan, do you know Hebrew? What does a ל before a word mean? If you know the answer to this then, לראש פינה means “to the cornerstone”.
What does a ל before a word mean?
It can also mean “for”.
היתה ל is to become in Hebrew.
See JPS:
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt26b8.htm
So, then according to you, היתה לאבן פינה should read: “Became to a corner stone.” Give us a break…..
Dan, what? Where are you getting this from? היתה לאבן פינה
Where is this written?
If you can honestly same that you know even a little bit of Hebrew, then in its simplest meaning, it means “to the cornerstone”. Besides, who are the builders?
JPS:
כב אֶבֶן, מָאֲסוּ הַבּוֹנִים– הָיְתָה, לְרֹאשׁ פִּנָּה.
The stone which the builders rejected is become the chief corner-stone.
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt26b8.htm
What about Rabbi Elya Svei who said Moshiach was coming in 5769?
http://www.thecooljew.net/2008/10/very-interesting-mashiach-coming-in.html
Amnon Yitzchak also predicted Moshiach would come in 5769:
http://parsha.blogspot.com/2009/09/will-rav-amnon-yitzchak-apologize-if.html
The GRA & the Ostrover Rebbe hinted at Moshiach coming in 5768-9:
http://www.rabbisitorsky.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13&sid=a2d8f1b7ec00e50d8719f1086286750b
Or the “gedolim” who predicted Moshiach would come before Pesach 5770?
http://roshpinaproject.wordpress.com/2010/03/14/litvak-poskim-moshiach-geula-korban-pesach-5770/
Baba Baruch and Chaim Kanievsky both assert Moshiach is coming before Rosh Hashanah 5770-1 – if he doesn’t are they false prophets?
etc etc.
Joseph, great job…you just shot yourself in the foot. According to your logic, JC is also a a false prophet. Allow me to explain:
Luke 21:32 “I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.” Well well, one of those “things” was that the “son of man” was to return. That didn’t happen now, did it?
The 22nd chapter of Revelation mentions several times how JC is “coming soon.”
verse 7 – “Behold, I am coming soon!”
verse 12 – “Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me…”
verse 20 – “Yes, I am coming soon.”
Tell me, what is soon? What is “this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened”?
All of that generation died, so JC is also a false prophet!
1000 years is like a day to God.
Psalm 90:4.
Joseph,
I forgot Matthew 16:28 “I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will NOT TASTE DEATH BEFORE THEY SEE the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
Did this happen? NO
False prophet? YES
Look at Stephen’s death in Acts 7:54-56 – what came first, his vision of Messiah coming in his kingdom or his death?
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%207:54-56&version=NIV
Joseph,
There are several problems with this statement:
1) JC is not G-d
1a) John 17:3 “Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the ONLY true G-d, and JC, whom you have sent.” Why doesn’t JC say “that they should know US?”
2) Matthew 24:36 “No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” How could JC (“god”) lack information about his own coming?
3) He wasn’t talking to himself, to the father or to the angels, he was talking to us. We are bound by time (for the time being), therefore, soon, means soon, not 2000+ years and counting.
4) Interestingly enough, our sages accurately predicted a LONG exile.
Joseph, wow! You’re really shooting yourself in the feet. You’re gonna need surgery soon. You have no feet left!
What about Stephen’s “prophecy”? Have you seen verse 14? “After this, Joseph sent for his father Jacob and his whole family, SEVENTY-FIVE in all.”
The Torah clearly states SEVENTY. Exodus 1:3 “The descendants of Jacob numbered SEVENTY in all…”
verse 16 “1…Abraham had bought from the sons of HAMOR at Shechem…”
The Torah clearly states Genesis 25:10 “…Abraham had bought from the HITTITES….”
Divinely inspired or humanly inspired?
What about Stephen’s “prophecy”? Have you seen verse 14? “After this, Joseph sent for his father Jacob and his whole family, SEVENTY-FIVE in all.”
The Torah clearly states SEVENTY. Exodus 1:3 “The descendants of Jacob numbered SEVENTY in all…”
Oh come on Nosson.
Jacob’s 70 descendants + Bilhah + Zilpah + Leah + Rachel + Jacob = 75 members of Jacob’s family in all, nu?
Joseph, wow! You’re really shooting yourself in the feet. You’re gonna need surgery soon. You have no feet left!
This is why never play with guns
Joseph, they were already included in the count seventy. Plus, Rachel died buddy, or did you forget.
oh yeah good point. and joseph was already in egypt with his descendants. Sometimes the Bible rounds things up to the nearest ten…
Look I’ll be honest, I don’t really have an answer to this. Would you allow me a day or two’s grace to try and figure it out?
Joseph, yes man of course. I understand. We don’t all have the answers right away or at all. In my opinion, this is the point of discussion, to make our own research and to LEARN THE TRUTH.
Really nicely put, cheers Nosson.
According to the LXX, it was 75 not 70 who went with Jacob:
http://www.ecmarsh.com/lxx/Exodus/index.htm (Exodus 1 of the Septuagint)
Even more ironically the LXX itself means “70″ but it was written by 72 rabbis….
Joseph, just curious is it really seventy-five? According to the same source, Deut 10:22 says seventy.
http://www.ecmarsh.com/lxx/Deuteronomy/index.htm
So which is it, seventy-five or seventy?
I trust our holy Torah which says: “שבעים נפש” (seventy souls). I don’t see how שבעים נפש could possibly be mistranslated to mean seventy-five. Unless it was done intentionally. Now would the church mistranslate anything INTENTIONALLY?
You bet!!
Nosson – make of this what you will:
http://www.tektonics.org/lp/peopletoegypt.html
I’m just reading through it.
One point I will make is that atheists often chide the Bible for calling pi 3 and not 3.14…etc. It seems there is some rounding up/down in the bible at points
Joseph, you, like a typical MJ, are siding with the xtrians on this subject. Whom should we, the Jewish people, believe. Our sages, or the pagan manipulators of the NT, the church?
Our Torah says 70, our tzaddikim say 70. Yet I’m supposed to believe idolaters with 75? Again, sh’vim cannot possibly be translated as 75. You see, it all adds up to the 70 nations of the world, the 70 bulls offered during Sukkot, the 70 languages of the people from the Tower of Babel, the 70 facets of the Torah. The number 70 is EXTREMELY important and has a deep secret involved in it. We are not tzaddikim and we are not in the level of our holy sages; so who are we to side against the holy Torah (G-d’s word), Moshe Rabeinu, the holy prophets, our holy sages?
“Joseph, you, like a typical MJ, are siding with the xtrians on this subject. Whom should we, the Jewish people, believe. Our sages, or the pagan manipulators of the NT, the church?”
That’s a cultural shaming technique, it’s not gonna work here. I’m prepared to side with you against people physically persecuting you or spreading lies about you. I am not going to side with you just because it’s a majority opinion. If you like we can discuss the Hebrew of the Tanakh and the Greek of the LXX. That’s fine.
But the Torah says don’t follow the multitude into falsehood – a teaching that carries over into the New Testament – and I wish to abide by that principle.
Joseph, you can be shown the truth and still reject it. Why? Because you have this detestable trait called “the need to be victorous”. I don’t mean this in a negative way about you, just that you seriously need to work on rectifying this. This is what Judaism is all about, making your self a better person by ridding yourself of your negative traits.
The original Torah (in Hebrew) which Moshe Rabeinu gave us clearly says “70 souls”. I don’t see how you, or any Jew, can possibly side with ANYONE who says otherwise.
Nosson – I agree with you it says 70 in the Torah. And again, I’ll probably need a little while to try and figure out a decent answer, which I will try to do. And if I can’t I’ll admit this. Now I’m sure everyone has some bad habits, but detestable traits, cmon.
If the anti-missionaries spoke like that to you, you’d never have converted to Judaism! You have to be cool, you’ll win more neshmot back to yiddishkeit that way.
Joseph, I agree, sometimes my words seem harsh, but I assure you, I don’t mean them in a harsh way. I apologize! Truthfully! In all fairness, I did say: “I don’t mean this in a negative way about you, just that you seriously need to work on rectifying this.” My intention was to show you something you need to work on improving, but never to harm you.
Wouldn’t you say that the trait of pride is detestable by G-d?
That’s fair enough Nosson, yeah you did qualify it. Yes, pride is a sin and yes we do all need to work on it and admit where we’re wrong! So yeah, well said & thanks
Nosson,
It is written in תהילים קיח פסוק 22 and now, תפסיק לבלבל את המח ואל תבייש את עצמך כאן.
Is this enough Hebrew for you?
Dan, I don’t see how you think I’m embarrassing myself here. If anyone has their מח confused it’s believers in JC.
Nosson,
Albert Einsetin once said:
Everyone has a right to his opinion, but no one has a right to be wrong with the facts.
Dan, I don’t see היתה לאבן פינה in verse 22, sorry. I think the blog site is reversing the order of what you meant to say?
Think of it this way, would you speak derogatorily against King David, Shmuel, Eliyahu, any of the prophets? Why not? They didn’t know JC and they didn’t believe in him? Are they in gehinom (G-d forbid)?
According to Mark 16:16 “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” Can we really say this? Can we say that Solomon, Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc. are in hell because they didn’t believe? What about all the people (righteous or not) before JC, are they in hell? They didn’t believe? Is that fair? That people born prior to JC are judged and on a different “salvation program” than those born after JC?
Something just doesn’t make sense here.
Nosson, One more time:
תהילים קיח פסוק 22
אבן מאסו הבונים היתה לראש פינה
David, what about this verse? You’ve already mentioned it. What about it? What’s your point”
Dan, Who are the “builders” in this passuk?
Nosson,
Are you backpedaling now? I am not here to interpret the verse, I am just pointing to what the verse says. It says: ” Has become the cornerstone.”
if you don’t believe me, maybe you believe the JPS Bible? ” The stone that the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone.”
You can also go on Chabad.org and see how they interpret it.
you have no argument and you know it, that is why, now, you are trying to divert the issue…
Dan, you couldn’t be further from the truth. I’m not diverting the issue at all. I simply stated that the simple meaning of the translation is “TO the cornerstone”; that’s all. I never said it can’t be read as “become”
Besides, what is the point you’re trying to make here? That JC is the cornerstone? If so, then who are the builders?
Thanks Joseph, one definition is better than none.
But it is still lacking, for instance, Where do you guys stand on the Oral Law, (of which you all have certainly heard) it is equal in authority and power to the written Torah in orthodoxy, so what do you think? Who among you would include it under the word “Torah” and in Torah observance (as most religious Jews do) or reject it? And why yes or no?
You might have to pull this post over a page, you guys have been very busy.
Donna – I reject the Mishnah/Oral Law as having any legal bearing on believers.
That’s not to say we should do the opposite, there might be wisdom in some of the mishnah, just it doesn’t apply to me and I don’t consider it torah.
Nossom,
the point that i was trying to make is that you somewhat weak in your Hebrew……Nothing more, nothing less……
Dan, I apologize for not being a Hebrew scholar, but I assure you, my Hebrew (in loshon kodesh) is not weak. It can be read as “TO” and you know it. But again, who cares. It’s really not a big deal.
However, why haven’t you answered my question? If we say that it’s “became the cornerstone”, then who are the “builders” that “despised the stone?”
Nosson,
Probably סולל בונה (a big construction company in Israel…LOL!)
Now, who do you think the “builders” are?
Dan, the builders are the tzaddikim, as it is written אלא נוניך ,אל תקרי בניך (do not read your sons, rather your builders – from the morning prayers).
Therefore, it’s impossible for the “stone which was despised” to be referring to the messiah, as the the messiah will not be despised by them. Remember, the messiah is not here to make a fool of the tzaddikim, he’s here to rectify the world in that they should all know G-d. He’s not here to die for our sins, this is NOT a Jewish concept. There will be world peace and the tzaddikim will be given the respect they deserve for the simple reason that the “knowledge of G-d will cover the world” and we’ll see what a low level we’ve been and how the tzaddikim have done so much for us.
xtrianity and MJ paints the tzaddikim in the darkest of colors. Throughout the NT, you find derogatory speech against this causing much hatred against them. This is not G-d’s work, but that of the evil one through the church. This needs to stop! The tzaddikim are not our enemies, they are our spiritual leaders and we are commanded to follow them “not steering to the right or the left (Deut 17:11).
I can assure you, ANYONE, be who they may, even JC himselft, who speaks negatively about tzaddikim will have to face severe judgment from G-d himself.
1 Chronicles 16:22 “Do not touch my anointed ones; do my prophets no harm.”
The penalty for publicly humiliating G-d’s righteous ones is VERY SEVERE. One needs to make complete teshuvah for doing so! Unfortunately, xtrianity and MJ teaches it’s followers to do so. Heck, if JC himself did it, why can’t his followers, right? WRONG.
If someone takes an honest look at himself, he can clearly see that it’s not right. All I ask is that the people reading this forum be honest with themselves. The worst fool is the one who fools himself! If you take an honest look, you’ll see that speaking negatively about G-d’s holy tzaddikim is wrong.
Who are the Tzadikim you keep referring to, and what is your proof that they are anointed?
Dan, when was JC annointed? Their are tzaddikim in every generation, and we have them in ours just as we’ve had them since Moses’ days. This is not an uncommon or illogical thought, for they cannot be a people without leaders. So how have the Jewish people existed all this time?
I don’t discuss the morning prayers, they were all written by people who deny my Messiah. Do you have any scriptural thing to add?
Dan, for your information, they were written by Ezra the scribe. Be very careful what you talk about. What Ezra a heretic?
Nosson,
How many of your tzadikim perform miracles as my Messiah did? Can you point to one of them who resurrected dead people?
You are the one who should have respect……
Dan, please don’t make public statements about tzaddikim performing miracles. They have and do. Besides, it shouldn’t surprise you that they can do even greater miracles than JC.
John 14:12 “…they will do even greater things than these…”
However, the Torah tells us in Deuteronomy 13:1-3 “If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder…the Lord your G-d is testing you to find out whether you love Him with all your heart and with all your soul.”
The fact that someone does miracles does not make him the messiah, it may be a test from G-d.
Tell me, didn’t Pharaoh’s magicians also perform miracles and feats as Moses did? Miracles mean nothing if they take you to worship anyone except the Almighty. And xtrians worship JC. Case closed.
Nosson, “Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.” Isaiah 7:14 NASB
Immanuel or Imanu’el (Hebrew עִמָּנוּאֵל “God [is] with us”
G-d gave us a sign, a virgin became pregnant and gave birth to a son who is called Immanuel – G-d with us.
http://adventofmessiah.wordpress.com/2010/03/03/defining-virgin-and-sign/
A sign is something EVERYONE CAN SEE. Can you or anyone, even if we lived in those days, SEE that mary was a “virgin”? NO, therefore IT IS NOT A SIGN.
Moshe (Shulman) wrote >>>Sorry to bother you but you are wrong. There is no need for a dead Messiah to atone for our sins. This is a typical error of people who have no idea what a Messiah is for and how individual sins can be atoned for.<<<
Moshe, Moshiach "is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant." http://tinyurl.com/2dh6dgt
David,
Which book came first Tanach or the NT? Tanach.
Which can be true and the other false? Only Tanch, because it is possible for Tanach to be true and the NT false, but it’s impossible for the NT to be true and the Tanach false.
We can conclude that ANYTHING in the NT which contradicts Tanach is FALSE. Hebrews 9 is a foreign thought to Judaism and therefore FALSE.
Remember, “anything true that that you find in the NT is not new; anything new that you find in the NT is not true!”
Nosson writes >>>Which book came first Tanach or the NT? Tanach.<<>>Which can be true and the other false? Only Tanch, because it is possible for Tanach to be true and the NT false, but it’s impossible for the NT to be true and the Tanach false.<<<
I don't see the Tanch and the NT as mutually exclusive, one true and the other false. You are correct it is impossible for the NT to be true and the Tanch false. Yeshua our Messiah (JC as you call Him) quoted the Tanch constantly as the word of G-d, never as anything within it that is false. The early apostles quote the Tanch and about 1/3 of the NT is quotes from the Tanch; thus it is included within the Christian Bible, both OT & NT. A follower of Messiah Yeshua (Messiahian or Christian) believe that both the Tanch and NT are G-d's word, the holy scriptures.
Of course a teacher of the law can misunderstand the law and be a blind guide to his flock. Messiah taught this Himself;
Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8" 'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.'"
http://tinyurl.com/247mw7m
(Yisheyah 29:13)
David, I’m just saying that, as Jews, we can’t consider the NT as equal to Tanach. Why? For the simple reason that it’s a text that has been manipulated by the church, among other reasons.
Yes, there are many quotes from Tanach in the NT, but the vast majority of them are mistranslated, taken out of context, partially quoted, or simply made up. I have provided an example of each below:
Mistranslation – Matthew 1:23 “The VIRGIN…” quoting Isaiah 7:14. The original Hebrew text reads “young woman” not “virgin”.
Taken out of context – the “prophecy of the virgin birth”. If we read it in its context, it’s obvious that it’s a contemporaneous situation. Dual prophecy? There is no such thing in Jewish scripture.
Partial quote – Matthew 2:15 “Out of Egypt I called my son.” quoting Hosea 11:1 which reads “When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. This verse is speaking about Israel, not JC. Why didn’t Matthew quote the entire verse, he couldn’t.
Made up out of thin air – Matthew 2:23 “…He will be called a Nazarene.” Where is this verse in the prophets? I have no idea
Moshe (Shulman) wrote >>>Sorry to bother you but you are wrong. There is no need for a dead Messiah to atone for our sins. This is a typical error of people who have no idea what a Messiah is for and how individual sins can be atoned for.<<<
Moshe, if Moshiach is still dead then we should sell all the churches and donate some of the money to the poor and build a shul on every corner with the rest. Moshiach did suffer and die but on the third day He arose from the dead.
If there wasn't enough credible evidence for the resurrection of Yeshua then why did 3000 Jews from around the world believe in Him and then were baptized on the day of Pentecost? http://tinyurl.com/2cl422l
David,
The Pharisees asked JC for a sign and he said it would be his resurrection after 3 days. So why didn’t he to appear to the Pharisees upon resurrection? Instead, his disciples went to the Pharisees and told them that JC had resurrected.Not much of a sign, is it? What good is a sign if you can’t SEE it and be a witness to it!!
What a shame, JC had the opportunity of a lifetime to show them he was right, but failed to do so. Or maybe, just maybe it never happened and his followers made it all up!!
You know, Islam also claims mohammed ascended to heaven from the Temple Mount. Are we to believe everything a religion claims without proofs? Especially when the books where these events occurred has been obviously manipulated by pagan idolaters?
Nosson writes >>>The Pharisees asked JC for a sign and he said it would be his resurrection after 3 days. So why didn’t he to appear to the Pharisees upon resurrection? Instead, his disciples went to the Pharisees and told them that JC had resurrected.Not much of a sign, is it? What good is a sign if you can’t SEE it and be a witness to it!!<<<
Messiah did provide many convincing proofs for 40 days on earth after His resurrection. The apostle Paul lists many of those that Yeshua did appear to after His resurrection;
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter,[b] and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.
9For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
1 Corinthians 15:3-9 http://tinyurl.com/29hxh7c
David, “Messiah did provide many convincing proofs for 40 days on earth after His resurrection.”
So why didn’t he present himself to the Pharisees as he said he would to “prove” it? Oh yeah, big proofs, to the people who are on his team. Interestingly enough, no one except his disciples saw him for those 40 days and only they saw him “ascend to Heaven”. Messiah is for ALL Am Israel, not for a select few. He should have revealed himself to ALL Am Israel. He had the perfect opportunity to do so and conveniently didn’t. I wonder why?
Sorry, but I don’t see a difference with this story as with mohammed. Angels revealed themselves to him in a cave and “thousands saw him ascend to heaven” from the same place JC supposedly ascended.
Gev,
I want all of it…Don’t forget I am Jewish….LOL!
You must educate yourself. Learn Jewish history, traditions and the Hebrew language (as Yeshua/Jesus lived). After you do, read the Bible again, pray to G-d to open your eyes and you’ll understand how Torah and Messiah are One!