Matthew, Luke and John all sound like the names of “good English vicars”! Judas sounds Jewish, but wasn’t he the one who betrayed Jesus-Yeshua!
It seems like the fate of the Jewish identity of Yeshua’s disciples has been tied to the fate of Judas who has been typified by Church history as the ‘typical Jew’. No wonder then that there are some Jewish Christians who are made to feel ill at ease with their Jewish identity in many Gentile-dominant churchy environments.
Many Church Fathers were uncomfortable with the Jewishness of the disciples so they simply de-judaised them!
The English translation of the Greek Ιουδαίος (Ioudaios) became Jew unfortunately sounding so similar to Judas! The ill educated and the stupid made Judas and Jew the same thing in their minds, anti-Semites have deliberately worked their theological voodoo on the Jewish people using the similarity between the words as the pins they plunge into their Jewish figure.
King James Version hardly manages to disguise the prejudice of its translators here! John 7: 1 “After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.”
Alec Motyer a famous English theologian, scholar and author shockingly wrote in the Evangelicals Now newspaper that he has “not found any Jews in the Old Testament” – no wonder then that the Jews in the New Testament get the ethnic cleansing treatment and it is even worse for many Messianic Jews today – hence the inevitable comment all Messianic Jews receive when they go to many British churches for long enough: “You’re not Jewish now you’re Christian”. Being a Messianic Jew attending or visiting some British churches can be a red rag to a bull as many Gentile Christians feel compelled to ethnically cleanse their guests! This shows more chutzpah than the anti-messianics and counter-missionaries saying Messianic Jews are not Jews anymore, but not really meaning it because they are proactively on a mission to bring all Messianic Jews into Orthodox Judaism. But at least they treat Messianic Jews as Jews, albeit bad Jews or confused Jews that they want to win, as opposed to replacementists and supercessionists who see no value or purpose at all to Jewish identity or may even be threatened by it!
People are waking up to the fact that Yeshua-Jesus really was Jewish, in fact Time Magazine listed it one of ten ideas that are going to change the world!
To get people thinking about Yeshua’s disciples also as Jews themselves, may be even harder!
The closer to Augustian supercessionist theology a Christian is, the harder it is for them to see anything good in Jewish identity, a Jewish Jesus, Jewish Disciples and the Jewishness of Christianity and hence a negative instinct towards Messianic Jews. Many other Church Fathers had similarly negative attitudes such as Ignatius Bishop of Antioch (98-117A.D.) who astonishingly wrote in his Epistle to the Magnesians
“For if we are still practicing Judaism, we admit that we have not received God’s favour…it is wrong to talk about Jesus Christ and live like Jews. For Christianity did not believe in Judaism, but Judaism in Christianity.” Source
The Jewish Apostles
Most Passion plays, Jesus films, Christmas cards and religious art portray the disciples of Jesus-Yeshua looking like a band of Viking warriors and Aryan models rather than hard working Jewish men, that is apart from Judas! You may ask where does it say they are Jews. Not in those exact words “the disciples were Jews” but there is lots of evidence in the New Testament which we will have a look at now. Many of these verses are familiar to many Christians, but have probably not looked at them the way we will look at them now.
The disciples were: Peter (Simon), Andrew (brother of Simon Peter), James bother of John (sons of Zebadee), John brother of James, Philip from Bethsaida, Bartholomew, son of Talemai (some say he is Nathanael of John 1:45), Matthew/Levi the tax collector, Thomas (the so-called “doubting”), James, son of Alphaeus, Thaddeus (traditionally identified with Jude), Simon the Zealot & Judas Iscariot.
Luke 6:13-15 13 “When morning came, he called his disciples to him and chose twelve of them, whom he also designated apostles: 14 Simon (whom he named Peter), his brother Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, 15 Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Simon who was called the Zealot, 16 Judas son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.”
Yeshua gives these twelve men a very specific task; they were to go to the people they originated from. Matthew 10:5-6 “These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.”
Yeshua visited Capernaum and preached in the Synagogue that some of his disciples attended. Mark 1:29 “As soon as they left the synagogue, they went with James and John to the home of Simon and Andrew.”
Yeshua’s disciples interacted with the Pharisees and were judged according to their standards and also identified themselves with those standards as Jews, hence they asked Yeshua the question they were asked. Matthew 9:11 “When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and `sinners’?””
The disciples of John the Baptist asked the disciples why they do not keep to traditional Jewish practice, as Jews. Matthew 9:14 “Then John’s disciples came and asked him, “How is it that we and the Pharisees fast, but your disciples do not fast?””
The Pharisees judged the Disciples by normative Jewish Shabbat practices, they were all Jews. Matthew 12:2 “When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.””
In the same way they are judged on their breaking with Halakhah which, as Jews, there was considered no real reason for them not to keep this. Matthew 15:2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!”
The Disciples were aware of rabbinic opinion. Matthew 17:10 “The disciples asked him, “Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?”
Yeshua affirmed rabbinic authority recognizing that they were Jews and that religious Jewish tradition was not as evil as many Church preachers assume it is, it was the inconsistent practice and non-Torah lives some were living He had issues with. Matthew 23:1-3 “Then Yeshua said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practise what they preach.”
As good Jews the Disciples wanted to keep Pesach. Matthew 26:17 “On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the disciples came to Yeshua and asked, “Where do you want us to make preparations for you to eat the Passover?”
After Paul is called to be an Apostle “out of time” he says to Peter: Galatians 2:14 When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?
The picture painted in the New Testament is a consistent picture of Jewish disciples following Jesus as the Jewish Messiah as Jews. It may be stating the blindingly obvious, but none of them started the Jerusalem First Baptist Church, they all continued to attend Synagogue and go to the Temple. Acts 3:1 “One day Peter and John were going up to the temple at the time of prayer–at three in the afternoon.” They were actually going to the Mincha prayer! They made the Temple their second home! Acts 5:42 “Day after day, in the temple courts and from house to house, they never stopped teaching and proclaiming the good news that Yeshua is Messiah.”
The Jewish Paul
We call him Paul of Tarsus but Paul doesn’t initially mentioned Tarsus himself we rely on the writer of Acts 9:11 for that information, “The Lord told him, Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying.” Paul doesn’t write in his letters about being a Roman citizen, we read that in Acts 22:25 he only mentioned he was a Roman citizen when he was in danger “Is it legal for you to flog a Roman citizen who hasn’t even been found guilty?” More important to him was Jerusalem where he studied under Gamaliel the Elder. Acts 22:3 “I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this [Jerusalem] city. Under Gamaliel I was thoroughly trained in the law of our fathers and was just as zealous for God as any of you are today.” Paul was proud to be “brought up” and educated in Jerusalem, as a Jew, and he was also “zealous” for Torah. Paul was a Jerusalem Yeshivah boy!
Paul wrote: Philipians 3:4-5 “If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee;”
Acts 23:9 the Pharisees say of Paul “we find nothing wrong in this man.”
Paul also wrote: Romans 11:1 “I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.”Paul thought it important to abstain from the appearance of evil, none of his Hebrew/Jewish/Israelite heritage and culture was evil and he seems rather proud of it. Paul gets into real specifics in this next verse.
2 Corinthians 11:22 “Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they Abraham’s descendants? So am I.”
Paul took assimilated Diaspora Messianic Jews to the Temple for the Mikvah, he did not lessen the Jewishness of the early followers of Jesus, he reconnected them. Acts 21:26 “The next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. Then he went to the temple to give notice of the date when the days of purification would end and the offering would be made for each of them.”
As a Jew Paul experience real devotion and communion with God in the Temple. Acts 22:17 “When I returned to Jerusalem and was praying at the temple, I fell into a trance.” He didn’t start a ‘church’ in Jerusalem, he went to pray where he always prayed as he and the other disciples did not believe they were following a new religion, they believed it was just a genuine continuation of the original one!
Messianic Jews today
In Acts 2:46 the disciples met each day in the Temple courts and broke bread in their homes. This was a movement that saw itself within the Judaism of their time and belonging in the Temple of Jerusalem. Therefore Messianic Jews follow a historic precedent, not a missionary trick thought up by Gentiles churches, to continue to identify as part of the Jewish community.
In James 2:2 we read that the meeting place of Diaspora Messianic Jews was called a “sunagoge-synagogue”, unsurprisingly many English translations have it as simply “meeting” not wanting to translate the word in a positive context when in Revelation they have no problem translating it as Synagogue of Satan as opposed to Meeting Place of Satan! (one of a few exceptions being JN Darby’s translation)! Persecution forced them to have their own places of worship otherwise it is doubtful they would have ever left the Temple and the Synagogue. Therefore it is not a betrayal of Jesus-Yeshua not to call a Messianic Jewish place of worship by the word ‘church’.
“What profit is there in being a Jew?” Paul’s answer to his own rhetorical question is still appropriate for today, although it may not be the answer many preachers would give: “Much in every way” Romans 3:2. Jewish disciples of Yeshua today are equally unashamed to follow in the footsteps of the original Jewish Disciples of Yeshua, as Jews, with no need to apologise to any supercessionist Christian or anyone else for that matter, who feels threatened by this ongoing historic continuum.
You make excellent points Gev, though they’re depressing.
The fact that the history of the Christian church is steeped in Jewish blood is not an accident. The anti-Semitism implicit in Paul’s self-hating “new testament” story line depicting the holy leaders of the Jewish community actualizing deicide was compounded by the gentile anti-Semitism of the early church doctors, the saints, the popes and the Protestant reformers like Luther. Anti-Semitism did not flourish in a vacuum–it needed the petri dish of Christianity to fester, and to become the monster that culminated in the last century in the Holocaust.
On an unrelated point. I am in conversation with Yash613 on his topic “Spot the flaw.” It concerns a point of Hebrew, which I can’t understand he is making. I can’t get him to tell me where I’m going wrong. Can someone help me out and tell me where my ignorance lies.
http://messianicjews.wordpress.com/2010/09/02/spot-the-flaw/#comment-187
my point was made very clear in the opening post. But thanks for vote of confidence
Gev. This article is great! A great encouragement for us Messianic Jews to put right what gentile church history has got wrong. It is also helpful that you point out that the Jewish community accepted us as Jews. We need to try and put right the wrongs of church history. Thanks Gev.
Anon, the arch-petri dish is putrid human nature.
Not in India it isn’t! Not in China. Not in Japan.
Modern (say, over the last 2,000 years) anti-Semitism exists in only those cultures that have adopted a belief in Jesus. Without that key ingredient, true Jew hatred never really manages to take hold.
In India etc, it will be some other anti-thing like anti-untouchables. As far as human nature is concerned, whatever ups your “anti” is fair game.
That’s very PC and multi-cultural of you, bography.
Yet the fact remains that the Christian hatred of the Jew is epic, irrational, sustained, and linked to protracted oppression including genocide unmatched in the history of humanity. Christians are incited against innocent Jews for one reason: the Jews represent the uncomfortable reality that the Law was never temporary, and ethical living remains the only thing G-d demands of us. Unable to withstand that reality, the pagans invented an alternative god who excused them from living up to any standards of decency, and then they turned on G-d’s representatives by charging them with deicide. Good morning, and welcome to the reality of Christianity-inspired, Christianity-excused violence against Jews.
Anonymous
“The anti-Semitism implicit in Paul’s self-hating “new testament” story line”
Have you read either Gev’s article? Do you read a different Paul? Have you got a New Testament?
Again I fear on your eagerness to get the first comment in you’ve failed to do your homework.
How can we take you seriously?
Thanks for your feedback, Levitt.
Are you Jewish?
Anonymous, this is not your post or blog, what are you on about “thanks for your feedback, Levitt”! I’m the one who’ll be thanking people for their feedback on my post. This is not your blog despite the fact you are conducting your own evangelism campaign here to find who the Jews are so that you can convert them to Orthodox Judaism and try put off the Gentiles so that you can have an easier ride.
I read your comments Anonymous and get the distinct impression that more than one person is accessing this avatar of yours (plural), that would one way to explain the dramatic swings from pleasantness to downright bloody-mindedness. Are you a trinity anonymous
Levitt, that’s just it nobody takes Anonymous seriously!! No serious scholar would take any of his comments serious. Just based on his comments everybody knows he has never read The New Covenant.
“My people perish for lack of knowledge”
Rey, Levitt what scholars are you referring to? I have read the NT amd I am hardly a scholar. In other words, one cannot be a scholar unless they have read the NT? What universe are you living in?
The so called “messianic rabbis” read the NT, not one is a rabbi either.
Why not start by defining a scholar; better yet, why not define a “rabbi”.
How does it feel to be part of a world where everyone misrepresents themselves? At least anonymous is a Jew. The fact that Rey and Levitt
don’t consider him a scholar is rather amusing.
who is this “nobody” that you keep referring to? the group in here?
rebyosh is not a rabbi either, even though he has given himself this
self-appointed title.
Rivers that spring from a pure source become polluted when self-interested industries located downstreak discharge effluence into them.
As more Gentiles became followers of the Jewish Yeshua they brought with them into Messiah’s Qahal pagan thought-forms and philosophical presuppositions. As toxic Gnosticism and Greek and Roman dualistic concepts leached into the pure waters of ‘the Way’, the Jewishness of the Gospels and the Epistles became polluted.
Stopping up the source of the stream is not the answer. Good on Rosh Pina for showing that the source of ‘Christian’ antisemitism originated downstream from the source which is Yeshua. Please, ‘Anonymous’, read what Gev is saying; not what you think he is saying.
Mike,
Very interesting, especially the part about anti-Semitism coming to Christianity with the gentile converts instead of through the gospel accounts of the Jews murdering G-d. It’s quite a creative perspective you’ve constructed for yourself, and I like it–even if it doesn’t make sense given the facts of history.
Mike, are you Jewish?
why does it matter whether or not he’s Jewish?
Anonymous, are you suffering split personality disorder? Or are you more than one person. Reason I ask is that your style of writing changes from time to time?
Mike, good post!
Dove, anonymous asks “are you jewish” because he is a immigration officer lol !! So be very careful!
I notice a tendency among “Messianic Jews” to argue that there is nowhere in the Gospels that the Jewish leaders had anything to do with bringing about the crucifixion of Jesus. With due respects – and the possibility that I will lose any respect I might have had – that’s bollocks
Thank you, bography. I don’t know why that’s so difficult for evangelicals to admit.
I know your Catholic early education would have clarified dogmatically that which the Christian bible is explicit about, but evangelicals shut their eyes tightly for some reason when they come across Matt. 27. “See no deicide, hear no deicide”. And yet, it’s right there in their miserable, anti-Semitic text.
And, by the way, Matthew is the nicest of the gospels. Have you noticed the anti-Semitic bile starts out slow with Matthew, and grows progressively more strident through Mark and Luke until one gets to John, in which the Jews are at last demonized to such an extent that such silliness as host torturing libels could give rise to severe pogrom activity amongst rank and file Christian devotees? Again, your Protestant cohort here is deadset against coming to terms with this obvious reality. Let’s help them together, shall we?
bography I plan to post something about the New Testament accounts on the crucifixion at a later date.
I can tell you lived in England for a while bography!
I know how you know I lived in England, Gev! Go on, admit it, you’ve been wallowing my “ferkerff” diaries, written by bographyonedaringjewblogoroff. LIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINK. But Gev, you know the link, so I”l just delete i%^&%^&% aah SORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRY everyone, too late.
http://blogoroff.wordpress.com/2009/09/03/the-ferkerff-diaries/
Thanks for the compliments ‘Anonymous’ but you’ll have to illuminate me. I’ve read the Gospels at least fifty times but I’ve never read in any of them that the Jews murdered G-d.
I’m flattered that you want to know a little more about me. Would you like my bank account number and sort code too?
Your bank account number? How would that be relevant to a discussion of the propriety of Jewish involvement in Christianity? No, thank you, but I’m not interested in your bank account number–only whether or not you’re a Jew. I am.
Oh, and see Matt. 27. If you think it doesn’t recount the story of Jewish deicide, we’ll know you come more from the evangelical branch of Christianity than the more literate Catholics.
Thanks ‘Anonymous’.
Matthew 27 stands against a background in which Yeshua is loved by the ordinary people. The latter chapters of the book relate how a corrupt and jealous Sadducean temple aristocracy conspired againsy Yeshua and succeeded in forcing the Roman governor to put him to death. They had to arrest Yeshua and try him at night because if they had attempted to do so during the day, there would have been riots, as Matthew 26:3-5 makes clear.
In The Jewish War (2.166), Flavius Josephus records that ‘the behavior of the Sadducees towards another is in some degree wild, and their conversation with those that are of their own party is as barbarous as if they were strangers to them.’ Was Josephus antisemitic?
The bad guys in Matt. 27 were the Pharisees, and implicitly the entire Jewish community, because that is who revered them and made them their leaders. The entire Jewish community did not make Jesus their king, and there is no Jewish record of a King Jesus, only a Christian record of it. Even the “new testament” claims that only the most religiously ignorant fell for Jesus’ claims to be the “Son of G-d”.
One thing we know about Josephus is that the only references to Jesus attributed to his writings were Medieval insertions, known as “pious frauds” that his contemporaries neglected to make matching entries for.
So, since you’re claim that Matt. 27 doesn’t paint the Jews as deicidal is wrong, and since your insistence that Josephus historicized Jesus is based on a fraud, how about we get to the bottom of from whence you’re coming to discuss Christianity with Jews: are you a Jew or are you a gentile missionary here to lie to and evangelize the Jews?
Anonymous: can we know your name?
Um, Joseph, wasn’t it you complaining that things were getting a little too personal, a little too probing, because I’d attempted to distinguish Jew from gentile in this Jewish-themed Christian religious Web space? I’m sorry for that overreaching sin, but I think the info I’d requested was totally relevant to the subject matter under discussion–whereas my name is totally not relevant.
So, for now, no. I’d prefer that we do share that which is relevant, and keep the rest…anonymous.
Here’s another question – are you the same “anonymous” we’ve been chatting to all along?
I ask because – since the Kenneth Rawson posts – it’s like you’ve had a personality transplant. The old “anonymous” was absolutely vile to be honest, but you seem nice.
But it’s not just personality, it’s theology too.
The old “anonymous” wouldn’t even answer whether he’s Jewish and considered the question irrelevant to RPP, but the new “anonymous” considers whether someone is Jewish or not to be *the* most relevant question on RPP.
So, anonymous is not a copywritten trademark, so it’s possible that others have been using it without my say so.
So while I can’t take responsibility for every comment on the Web–or even at this site–under that screen name (and I have seen some comments here under the name that I didn’t submit, rather older though), I am the same individual that previously took a more confrontational stance. I have since recalibrated my approach, not because of a personality transplant but because of the education I’ve received in the importance of believing people like you, who present yourself as both Christian and Jew, as good and decent, non-missionizing individuals. Please understand that when we first met, I took everything you said and the way you presented yourself as one big lie, one big attempt to fool other Jews into becoming Christians. I hope you can stretch your mind and try for a moment to understand why I felt that way. Here we had a site decorated thematically as Jewish, coupled with a Christian message and essays generally abusive toward religious Jews. From a Jewish believer’s perspective, you were running a nasty storefront. But I’ve since come to understand that you approach religion from a perspective and a background to so utterly different from my own that you read what I see here with totally different eyes. Genuine eyes, with no intent to deceive. Only with that appreciation was I able to alter my approach to you, and request your forgiveness for any undue insult I’ve hammered you with in the past.
Maybe now you can start to see why it’s so important for me to know whom I’m talking to–where they come from religiously. How else can I hope to engage in a meaningful dialog with them here, without even knowing how they see the world and their relationship with their G-d? This is my attempt to improve, and I’d appreciate your not belittling it. Especially when I’m here in large measure out of a concern for you, my brother (go ahead, I can hear you snickering).
Can I just clarify something:
have you personally written every comment labelled “anonymous” with Luther’s picture attached?
No problem if not
I guess as far as I know I have. I haven’t seen any comments under the name Anonymous and with the pic of Luther that were not penned by me. And all of the comments of submitted here since that persona came online here recently have been under that handle.
I hope you’re not reviewing my older, less understanding comments and judging me only on them…especially now that I’ve apologized and turned over a new leaf…?
So when I was asking you about Kenneth Rawson, that was *you* (the you I’m talking to now) responding all along?
Yes. I think you’d accused me of being a number of people you consider to be infamous. Not only am I none of them, I’m also not even infamous.
I happen to be a nice person, and my previous, not nice reactions to you were borne out of a concern for people I’d thought you were attempting to victimize. I was in the wrong to presume that about you, and that’s why I regret my earlier comments, which I retract.
I realize those older stings, coupled with Total Depravity doctrine, restrain you from seconding my claim to be a nice person, but I hope that with my apologies and explanations and our continuing dialog going forward I may be able to change your mind.
That’s certainly fair enough Anonymous, and if you say so I believe you. Just it’s difficult with anonymous comments some times, you can lose track of who’s saying what.
Anonymous, I don’t know whether it’s the sinister picture of an anti-Semitic cleric or the fact you keep asking if everyone’s Jewish, but you’re beginning to resemble a sort of Spanish Inquisitor – no offence.
None taken. I’m asking folks because, as you can see, you’ve designed this Web space to look Jewish. But the religion here is pure Christianity.
So, I’m naturally trying to figure out with what and with whom I’m dealing here. One thing that’s come to light since I’ve started asking is a couple of disparate axes. The first axis is those who are Jewish versus those who are gentiles that want to bring Jews to the cross. And the second axis is those who are willing to clarify which of those categories they fit into versus those who are not.
And, given what the Spanish inquisition was all about–converting the Jews to Christianity at the point of a sword and expelling the rest–you have no need to worry: I’m not a Christian. Believe me, the Spanish inquisition did not stop after asking people what their religion is. I, on the other hand, seek no additional personal information than that. I hope this helps you to breath a little easier.
Anonymous,
I don’t agree with a lot of what Christianity has done but i can’t blame that on Yeshua or His disciples because that is not what He taught!!! Yeshua is Jewish and so are all His disciples except Luke who was a proselyte, The New Covenant is not a Gentile religion, it comes straight out the pages of The Tanakh. The reason that much of Christianity has gone totally wrong is that they have gotten away from it’s original meaning and roots!!
The Inquisition was chiefly about finding out which Christians had Jewish blood. The office of the Inquisition did not touch non-Christian Jews – you are confusing it with the 1391 pogroms and the 1492 Edict of Expulsion.
Until you came about, I don’t think there’s been anyone since Torquemada quite so interested in which Christians do or don’t have Jewish blood
Oh, right, thank you for correcting me. In between the Christian pogroms and expulsion of the Jews, they stopped to burn them at the stake. That was the Christian inquisition.
I stand corrected.
And there hasn’t been someone less interested in which Christians do or do not have Jewish blood – onedaringmoi.
Now you know why Anon and I are kissing (well, not in public) cousins.
I’m commanded to love you…not to kiss you.
As you’ll see, bography, we disagree on one little matter: I care immensely about whatever the Jewish Bible commands me to care about.
It happens to be that bloodlines are not one of the things that the Jewish Bible commanded us to care about when determining whether or not we have an obligation to love someone. But if it did, then I would. I don’t evaluate the Jewish Bible to determine whether it’s moral or not. I evaluate a given system of morality against the Jewish Bible to see if I can accept it or not. Such is the level of my commitment to the Word of G-d. I look forward to continuing to discuss the Jewish Bible with you, and to comparing it as a benchmark against other ideas that you may have been thinking about.
You’re not Mark Powers are you?
Sorry, no.
he’s a nice guy though, left some funny comments
Gary Powers?
Nope. Don’t know who that is. I would point out that there are a lot of personal questions coming my way, which I’m happy to field, from a crowd that has been up in arms about the invasion of privacy when I asked “are you a Jew or a gentile?” here at this Jewish-themed Christian Web site.
Joseph, I have finished reading this interchange here and must confess
that I also am not Mark Powers, unless Mark Powers is capable of making
a wonderful Brisket and Honey Cake.
So why does asking people in a messianic group who is a Jew? Considering that every symbol used by messianics is a Jewish Symbol, I don’t find that a strange question.
Joseph lets me really honest here, many messianics give themselves Jewish sounding names in order to appear more Jewish…c’mon Joseph
you know I am correct. One doesn’t have to be Mark Powers to ask
if someone involved with messianics is a Jew. Should we ask if they are muslim? Don’t you find that a little “over the line” to equate that with
the Inquisition? I have met more non-jews dressed as frum women who turned out to be messianic and who were not Jewish as all.
Understanding this masquarade as messianic behavior leads one to ask
if someone is really Jewish.
Besides, many antimissionaries claim that most messianics are not Jewish at all, and I think they overexaggerate about this.
I quite like Mark Powers, he’s left some comments here in his real name before. I hope he’s reading.
It’s just Anon’s name makes it tempting for me to guess who he is. Your name doesn’t make me think you might actually be my grandma, but anon’s make me think he could be anyone, the possibilities are endless!
My point was: the Inquisition was all about whether Christians had Jewish blood or not – limpieza de sangre: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limpieza_de_sangre
those who didn’t have pure blood were monitored for evidence of judaising, and those who judaised fell victim to the Holy Inquisition (sic).
I hope you don’t misunderstand the Christian inquisition in Spain.
It was not at all about cleansing Spain’s blood line. It was part of one brutal, sustained campaign of oppression against the Jews that Spain’s Christians waged against it’s innocent Jewish population. In between forcing the Jews to convert to Christianity on pain of death and expelling them from their homes in Spain, the Christians stopped to burn a bunch of innocent Jews at the stake for the offense of being Jewish.
This is what your adoptive religion has wrought, my friend. Because you have adopted it, I fully appreciate your need to excuse it from this mere specific example of the vast array of horrific spectacles when loving Christian spirituality ricocheted across Europe’s Jewish ghettos. But do you know what those Christian oppressors all thought? They read Matt. 27, and they understood clearly that they were righteously punishing G-d’s murderers.
Can you show me a source – any source – which shows that the office of the Inquisition was to convert non-believing Jews to Spanish Catholicism??
There is a huge difference between Torquemada and Jesus – ever read the Brothers Kasmarov?
First of all, Joseph, the Jews were not non-believing. They were quite believing. They just didn’t believe in Christianity. They were Jewish believers.
And, secondly, I’m not here to argue the finer points of Spanish anti-Semitic savagery. The inquisition itself was an excuse to burn some Jews at the stake. It was sandwiched between earlier forced conversions and later expulsion. The big picture is a story of horrible oppression the Jews suffered as a direct consequence of wrongful Spanish Christianity.
Anon, you do realise I’d get burned by the Inquisition, if it were around today – for all sorts of things. You wouldn’t though.
Hellooo…that’s my whole point to you!
Don’t forget who you are. But not because the anti-Semites also haven’t forgotten (including the gentile missionaries you’re comfortably surrounded by here). Rather, because you’re a part of G-d’s chosen people, and you’ve been chosen for a very different mission than them. Learn about it. Be a part of it. We aren’t the same without you. You say you want the messiah. Help bring him.
Hi “Anonymous”, I’m home!
Since so much water has flowed under the bridge since yesterday, let’s just refresh the memories of our readers. You claim “the bad guys in Matt. 27 were the Pharisees”. After Matthew 23:9, the only mention of the Pharisees is in 27:62. They were certainly involved in the plot against Yeshua but after the conspiracy begins in earnest in Matthew 26:3, between that verse and the end of chapter 28, the term “chief priests” occurs twelve times. And just who were the “chief priests”? Sadducees!
You presume the plot by the rulers against Yeshua implicates “the entire Jewish community” because the people “revered them and made them their leaders”. Are you suggesting that ancient Israel was a democracy and that Israel’s rulers were democratically elected? Herod the Great became king by bribery and corruption and the Sadducees ruled by violence, cronyism, nepotism and by sucking up to the Romans.
You say: “The entire Jewish community did not make Jesus their king, and there is no Jewish record of a King Jesus, only a Christian record of it.” Where is there a “Christian record” of the Jewish community making Jesus their king? And, anyway, doesn’t this line of reasoning shoot in the foot your claim that the New Testament (and by explication Christians) demonises the Jews as “Christ haters”?
You say: “Even the ‘new testament’ claims that only the most religiously ignorant fell for Jesus’ claims to be the “Son of G-d”. If you don’t mind me saying, you have pretty low view of your own people, particularly those who have not attained to your level of halachic knowledge. Your tone is contemptuous. Anyway, your claim is not quite true. In Acts 2, two thousand Shavuot pilgrims from Israel and the Diaspora turned to Yeshua. Are you saying that all those Torah-observant Jews were “religiously ignorant”? Acts 21:20 records there were tens of thousands of followers of Yeshua in Jerusalem alone who were all “zealous for the Torah”. And what about Saul and the other NT writers? You might not agree with their exegesis of the Tanakh but you can’t say they were “religiously ignorant”. Well, can say it, but you’d be wrong.
If you look again at my post, I made no mention about what Josephus allegedly wrote about Yeshua but what he said about the Sadducees. Are you suggesting that because you believe someone doctored his writings in one place, the entire works of Josephus are worthless? Or are you just missing my point?
Finally, tell me who I’m talking to and I’ll tell you if I’m Jewish.
Mike, that well-referenced and well-researched argument is entirely worthless UNLESS YOU TELL ME WHETHER OR NOT YOU’RE JEWISH!
The worth of my argument depends on whether I’m Jewish or not! What kind of logic is that?
I’m Jewish. I’m open about that.
Are you?
I’m Human and I’m Mike.
Score: Mike 2 – Anonyous 1.
I’m Cuban!!! lollol
Mike,
that was a great post!!! of course folks are going to say that Josephus works were doctored, he is a Jewish historian speaking about the history of Yeshua HaMashiach!! Anything that comes close to speaking about true historical facts of Yeshua are quickly disregarded and said to be doctored up.
Thanks Rey.
The only part of Josephus anyone claims is bogus (as far as I know) is his reference to Jesus as the Messiah. No scholar tha I am aware of doubts the rest is pure Josephus. His comments on the Pharisees (he was one himself), the Sadducees, the Siccarii and the Essenes are illuminating.
For example, we discover from him that there were only 6,000 Pharisees. Within months of the death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus, there were more followers of the Way than Pharisees. By the end of Acts, in Jerusalem alone there were tens of thousands on Torah-observant followers of Jesus.
Mike,
Amen brother!!
Bubby you say you can make a nice Honey Cake. Can you make a nice Honey Pletzel?
Shmononymous! What a great blog name – for a Jewish? boy.
“Mike, that well-referenced and well-researched argument is entirely worthless UNLESS YOU TELL ME WHETHER OR NOT YOU’RE JEWISH!”
Look there’s only one way to prove that you are really one-thousandth Palestinian, I mean, Ashkenazi:
Ashkenazi Jews have the highest average IQ of any ethnic group, combined with an unusual cognitive profile, while no similar elevation of intelligence was observed among Jews in classical times nor is one seen in Sephardic and Oriental Jews today.
And Ashkenazim experienced very low inward gene flow, which created a favorable situation for natural selection.
So, check you IQ and your gene flow, and bubba’s your uncle.
http://homepage.mac.com/harpend/.Public/AshkenaziIQ.jbiosocsci.pdf
http://homepage.mac.com/harpend/.Public/AshkenaziIQ.jbiosocsci.pdf
Anon
You oppose the “Total Depravity doctrine” to being nice. You don’t understand the doctrine; nor do most Christians. I can understand the misunderstanding, though. It’s an unfelicitous term.
Ok, Martinus, so you do understand it. Please elaborate.
Pingback: Rosh Pina Project In The Christian Press « The Rosh Pina Project
Pingback: Rosh Pina Project in the UK Christian magazine Evangelicals Now | eChurch Blog
I was so excited to see this post. I am a Gentile(?) Christian, my identity is a bit confusing too. I have been studying the Easter story about Jesus and have wished for a Messianic Jew to help me understand : ) Today, the Jews are recognized as the root of Christianity in most Protestant(?) (hate that word) Churches. I have no idea why anyone would remove that in history, we are being taught differently now in the USA. We are in awe of the real Passover. Rabbis come into our Churches to help us understand it’s meaning. All through the Old Testament, Jesus was to come from the lineage of David. As the apostle Paul said, we are the grafted branches. Jesus came for the Jews first. Mankind crucified Him, it wasn’t limited to the Jews or Romans. We all did. You should be honored among us, not feared. Some of what you describe sounds very Catholic and Pope like (not considered Christian either). Of course we do have some folks that don’t get it in- all the Churches.
Here’s my blog if you are interested Hope Faith & Life. I have been humbled to write about the events that led to Jesus’ resurrection (Easter in our Church) lots of prayers went into it. I have completed up to His burial. Tomorrow I’ll do the resurrection- the best part! I am working from an English translation of the Bible and hope I am doing the story justice. There is a Contact Me link in the right column of the page. Feel free to contact me : ) Is there a way I can submit my questions to you? Or is that outside the scope of this blog? God bless you all.
Sure send to roshpinaproject AT gmail DOT com
And also in other aspects show that Paulos – Shaul lived the live of a Torah observant Jew:
Acts 18:18 shows he kept the vow of nazir (Num.6:1-21): “having shorn his head in Kenchrea, for he had a vow”.
He kept Chag haMatsot: “And we sailed away from Philippi after the days of the unleavened bread” (Acts 20:6)
Paulos testified that he kept the tradition and never trespassed the customs of the fathers: “Neither against the laws of the Jews, neither against the Temple … have I offended any thing at all” (Acts 25:8) and towards the Jewish leaders in Rome he said: “Men and brethren, though I have committed nothing against the people, or customs of the fathers, …” (Acts 28:17)
Can anyone tell me who is the artist of this panting and where one can get a copy?