Update: JFJ Leader divorcing but not resigning (via ex-JFJ)
We reproduce the leader’s letter below
From Canada’s Globe and Mail, a pretty extraordinary story:
Marcello Araujo was once a rising star at Jews for Jesus Canada, an evangelical organization that seeks to convert Jews to Christianity. He travelled regularly across Canada, spreading the word and developing a list of about 5,000 donors who gave generously to the cause.
His career with the ministry abruptly ended in 2005 when Jews for Jesus fired him for allegedly violating the group’s Workers’ Covenant by secretly dating and then getting married at Toronto City Hall. Mr. Araujo has gone to work for a rival organization, Chosen People Ministries Canada, and he is suing Jews for Jesus in an Ontario court for wrongful dismissal.
I don’t understand this part about a Workers’ Covenant – surely in the 21st century, Jews For Jesus can’t possibly have any legal sway over someone’s relationship status and love-life? Such heavy-handedness is more reminiscent of authoritarian religion or a controlling cult, rather than the easy yolk of Yeshua. Surely this cannot be the reason Mr Araujo was dismissed.
Anyway, the article continues:
Mr Araujo told them the couple had married three months earlier in a civil ceremony and Ms. Scott was a “believer,” according to court documents. Jews for Jesus fired him three weeks later for allegedly violating the organization’s lifestyle policies by, among other things, concealing the marriage, failing to obtain counsel from leaders before courting Ms. Scott and failing to “select Scott as [a] spouse in accordance with the dating guidelines of the Workers’ Covenant.” Court filings show the organization has demanded details of Mr. Araujo’s sex life to further prove he violated the Covenant and “the standards of Biblical morality.”
Mr. Araujo said in court documents that he never signed the Workers’ Covenant because he disagreed with the courtship and marriage rules, calling them “cultish.” He also labelled Jews for Jesus’ conduct “callous.”
Is the Workers Covenant even legal? I am seriously wondering about this. I cannot believe that your employers should hold sway over who you socialise with. Perhaps one could argue that JFJ USA are noble in their quest to maintain moral standards, but equally, who is monitoring the people monitoring their missionaries?
Further we read:
The lawsuit has taken a twist with Jews for Jesus countersuing Mr. Araujo, alleging that he used its donor list to solicit money for Chosen People. In court filings, Mr. Araujo acknowledged sending a letter to supporters that in part asked for financial support, but he insisted he did nothing wrong because he approached only the donors that he had cultivated during his 12 years at Jews for Jesus.
Again, this is curious. As I understand it, Jews For Jesus ask their individual missionaries to send written postcards to supporters, expressing their personal gratitude for any gifts received. JFJ encourage a link between the missionary and his supporters. When a missionary begins his ministry, he has to raise his own financial support.
Surely then, JFJ couldn’t fire the guy for getting hitched, then complain when he wrote to his own supporters as he started a new job – albeit with a rival company. I don’t know what JFJ expected – if for example you stop working as a salesperson in one shop, you’ll probably just go and work in another shop. Same with religious organisations. But there does seem to be more to the story, as the article suggests, as it touches on the roles of rival missionary organisations making use of JFJ contacts.
Perhaps we should wait for the court verdict, but I’m interested in people’s takes on this issue here at RPP.
Update (via ex-Jews for Jesus):
Knowing of all too many other JFJ people who have found their marriage imperilled by JFJ – the article reminds us of “closing the door after the horse has bolted”. We have also received a number of emails from current serving Jews for Jesus staff extremely sad, hurt and perplexed about this situation. Some saying how Mr Brickner, the executive director of Jews for Jesus had the Worker’s Covenant changed because he knew this divorce was on the way. One particular insider has informed us that Mrs Brickner did not say what is written in this article.
Read on and make up your own mind.
————————————————-
PRAYER PROMPTERS
AN IMPORTANT WORD FROM OUR BOARD CHAIR, DR. JIM CONGDON…
Because your trust is important to us, it’s my duty to reluctantly inform you that Patti Brickner, David’s wife of 30 years, has told him that she intends to dissolve their marriage. I’m sure this sad news comes as a shock to you, as it has been to all of us who serve closely with him, and we continue to pray for God to heal their relationship.
Our worker’s covenant requires a Staff member whose spouse files for divorce to offer his or her resignation. David did so as soon as his wife revealed her intent. From the outset, David has been opposed to divorce and immediately sought pastoral accountability and marriage counseling. He made every effort to do whatever he could to save his marriage, including offering to leave the ministry to spend more time with his wife, but to no avail. Mrs. Brickner has said that David has been a good and loving husband and wonderful father, and is not to blame for the circumstances surrounding her decision, which do not reflect on his character or treatment of her.
Our policy provides two exceptions for retaining divorced staff: “in the case when a believing partner was abandoned in the marriage or divorced against his or her will .”
The Board appointed a special committee to weigh all the circumstances and receive input from all parties. After much time in prayer and a rigorous decision-making process, we, the board of directors on June 18 made the decision to retain David as our executive director. The board is confident that David is still God’s man and the right person to meet the needs and biblical imperatives of his unique position. We unanimously recommitted to support David’s leadership of Jews for Jesus, as he has done so capably for the past fourteen years. We further granted David’s request to take a full leave of absence for two months and a partial leave of absence for the following two months to devote time to his personal life
We want you to share our sense of peace amidst the grief, that God is in control and that we did what He would have us do. We are determined not to be distracted or hindered from the great work God has in store for us. The Bible is full of stories of people who overcame personal setbacks to accomplish great things for Christ. We are convinced that this will be the case with David.
Please pray for our ministry as we continue a mission that is challenging in the best of times. With your prayers, support and understanding, we feel we just might be on the verge of a great breakthrough for the cause of Christ.
————————————————————–
Note:
In light of our knowledge that Jews for Jesus is a litigious organization, we would like you to know that this selection from the Jews for Jesus newsletter is copyrighted to Jews for Jesus © 2010 and was received by ourselves directly from them and not via a third party. We are quoting it as fair use so as not to misrepresent this sensitive information. The purpose of the quotation is for informative purposes only and educate those who may be interested. There is no commercial motivation in our quotation.
Lets see if you will be getting Bob Mendelssohn to comment on this article too? Should I hold my breath?
ha ha ha, I’d love him to, really I would.
I can’t post comments on RPP from my own avatar, for some weird reason. Must be a bug on my wordpress account.
Bob is welcome to comment here but I doubt he can say much about the case itself while court proceedings are continuing.
What I would be interested in – if Bob’s reading – is this Workers Covenant.
Is it really true you can’t get married without your boss knowing?
And if you do, is it a sackable offence?
If I were a betting man (which I am not), I would say that ‘Jews for Jesus’ have a policy of only allowing Jews to marry gentiles. That way they can destroy the Jewish nation much quicker, and more effectively.
http://messianicjews.wordpress.com/2010/10/27/interesting-observation/
I am a strong advocate for freedom speech. I also oppose efforts to spoil the thread by off-topic posting and rudeness like the comment by y613. It adds nothing to the discussion and only hinders free expression.
Y’s comments should be censored because it is irrelevant and designed to ruin and spoil conversation. It is the equivalent of yelling and screaming hate speech during a worship service and has no place here.
That’s not the issue here! The issue is whether JFJ can enforce their missionaries to report back to them about their love-lives.
Did they get the idea from Yad L’Achim or something?
Yash, funny to think I would be the last person to defend anything
j4j does, but to be honest, they have more jews married to jews
than any other messianic organization. Come to think of it, they
also have more jews working for them and they are not the faux messianic jews but real live jews with jewish mothers. So its quite wierd that you
would even offer that as a possibility.
Destroying the jewish nation is on a faster track from the messianic community to tries to blend gentiles and jews into one big “stew”
and looks the other way when people lie about being jews. much
more intermarriage in the messianic movement.
what I find really interesting is the posting of this on here at all. its obvious none of you are privy to the “inside information”, and choose
to post gossip. so much for your love of your brother. I guess jesus
didn’t make you any different than the traditional jews who you
try to make fun of as well.
Again, jews for jesus is not an organization I ever worked for while I
was involved with messiyanics, but I know enough to be able to tell
you what I stated above.
Bubby,
No one needs to worry that the Jewish people will be destroyed by missionaries or by anyone else. We have G-d’s guaranty that the Jewish people will survive against any odds.
The problem these proselytization churches pose is to individual Jews, who, as we can see from the case of Joseph, enjoy no such guaranty. Who’s placing bets that Joseph’s great grandchildren will even know that they had a paternal Jewish ancestor way back when? Nobody, because G-d didn’t promise Joseph that his line would remain a part of the eternal covenant G-d struck with Israel. That covenant is bilateral, and anyone who on principle repudiates his obligations under it is excused from participation in its benefits. Joseph has been successfully picked off by the missionaries, no doubt to Hitler’s delight, but ultimately the choice is Joseph’s.
So, with that said, it’s really not possible to rate J4j as in some way a better grade missionary outfit because it limits its front office personnel to Jews. The reality is that J4j has the same objective as every other mission to the the Jews: to convince members of the covenant to abrogate it, to commit spiritual suicide. And while ultimately someone who separates his soul from G-d is responsible for his own actions, there is no escaping the recognition that his inciters are a pack of extreme lowlifes.
“Joseph has been successfully picked off by the missionaries, no doubt to Hitler’s delight, but ultimately the choice is Joseph’s.”
Hitler is dead but I wouldn’t care what he thought anyway.
You know he had Jewish believers in Jesus killed too along with every other type of Jew, so clearly he didn’t care what we thought either.
You’re right, Joseph. Hitler didn’t make any distinctions between Jews. No matter what they believed, or looked like, or stood for, he wanted them to be gone from existence.
And, in your case, he’s scored a success. Sure, you’re still physically alive for a little longer, but you don’t practice the divine morality that so offended Hitler and you won’t leave behind any Jewish children. You’re a lame duck and a dead end, and of your own volition no less. What greater source of pride and happiness could Hitler derive from any Jew?
With respect, it sounds like you’re the one who cares what Hitler might or might not think. I don’t care.
So Hitler would be happier with you, because you are obsessed with what he might think about you, even though he’s dead.
On the other hand, I refuse to let Hitler define me.
Whether or not you care about it, your life achievement, or lack thereof, is a fulfillment of Hitler’s most vicious anti-Semitic hopes and dreams. The fact that such does not trouble you is startling, but to a lesser degree than your assumption of a thoroughly non-Jewish outlook and lifestyle.
Yes Frank, I’m sure you’d love that be true, it’s not true though. That’s why Hitler killed all the Hebrew Christians and Jesus-worshipping Jews.
I think the closest Hitler got to fulfilling his dreams was the destruction of six million Jews, including many Jews who believed in Jesus. He had no interest in what Jews believe.
Frank, I have to note that your “Hitler” is a remarkably revisionist Hitler.
What websites have you been reading that led to your stance?
Joseph,
You harp with alacrity on the fact that Hitler killed out Jews who converted, like you, to Christianity. You emphasize this fact so resoundingly as to crowd out the reality those statistically inconsequential subset of the Jews were Hitler’s incidental victims. Hitler wasn’t aiming to annihilate specifically those Jews who had adopted his Christian culture’s faith. Rather, they were his accidental peripheral casualties. Hitler hated the Jews because of what they represented: the ethical distinction between right and wrong. Judaism.
But those are my words. Here is what Hitler had to say himself, in his own words, on 7 August 1920:
“The influence of Judaism will never fade as long as its agent, the Jew, has not been removed from our midst” (E. Jaeckel and A. Kuhn, eds, Hitler. Saemtliche Aufzeichnungen 1905–1924 [Stuttgart: Deutsche Verlagsanstalt, 1980], pp 178 ff.)
But in your case, Judaism has faded away entirely, and though you may be a Jew, you have become a beacon of worship to a false foreign god that is inimical with Judaism. And your sarcastic attack on my grasp of Hitler’s anti-Judaism philosophies and genocidal motivations reveals that you are as disconnected from the lessons of the broad themes of history as you are from those of religion.
“You harp with alacrity on the fact that Hitler killed out Jews who converted, like you, to Christianity.”
No, I state as fact that Hitler killed out Jews who converted to Christianity.
“You emphasize this fact so resoundingly as to crowd out the reality those statistically inconsequential subset of the Jews were Hitler’s incidental victims.”
Then you clearly know nothing of Nazi racial theory.
Maybe start here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism_and_race
“Hitler wasn’t aiming to annihilate specifically those Jews who had adopted his Christian culture’s faith. Rather, they were his accidental peripheral casualties. Hitler hated the Jews because of what they represented: the ethical distinction between right and wrong. Judaism.”
Right, your lack of historical awareness is stunning.
Here is a quote from Mein Kampf:
“The Jew has always been a people with definite racial characteristics and never a religion.”
Clearly Hitler saw Jews primarily as a racial group, which explains why he persecuted all Jews regardless of their beliefs – including Jews who believed in Jesus.
“But those are my words. Here is what Hitler had to say himself, in his own words, on 7 August 1920:
“The influence of Judaism will never fade as long as its agent, the Jew, has not been removed from our midst” (E. Jaeckel and A. Kuhn, eds, Hitler. Saemtliche Aufzeichnungen 1905–1924 [Stuttgart: Deutsche Verlagsanstalt, 1980], pp 178 ff.)”
Yes, to the extent in which Jews believed in Judaism, it was considered an evil religion.
Hitler also commanded the New Testament to be rewritten by Nazi theologians, seeking to erase Jewish influences on Christianity:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-399470/Jewish-references-erased-newly-Nazi-Bible.html
“But in your case, Judaism has faded away entirely, and though you may be a Jew, you have become a beacon of worship to a false foreign god that is inimical with Judaism.”
Right, so why not just say you don’t like my beliefs? Why bring Hitler into the equation at all?
“And your sarcastic attack on my grasp of Hitler’s anti-Judaism philosophies and genocidal motivations reveals that you are as disconnected from the lessons of the broad themes of history as you are from those of religion.”
It’s not sarcastic, it’s matter-of-fact. You are very ignorant of Nazism on so many levels. That has nothing to do with your religious beliefs. It does demonstrate your lack of historical awareness.
When you calm down, when the adrenaline subsides, when your tantrum is over and you’ve had a good cry, let’s have a rational exchange about Hitler’s 1920 proclamation, and whether it signifies Hitler’s disenchantment with Jews primarily over their race or if it isn’t really the religious ethic the Jews are meant to represent that so enraged the Führer.
Just to reiterate the quotation under consideration: “The influence of Judaism will never fade as long as its agent, the Jew, has not been removed from our midst”.
Your hermeneutics, or apology, for this quote thus far goes a long way to explaining how your faulty thought process could have permitted you to read “G-d is not a man” (Num. 23:19) and derived from it that Jesus, a man, is G-d!
When you calm down, when the adrenaline subsides, when your tantrum is over and you’ve had a good cry,
lol silly you, I’m not annoyed
I’m just a bit stunned at how little you understand Nazism, or why you have chosen to ignore the Mein Kampf quote.
“let’s have a rational exchange about Hitler’s 1920 proclamation, and whether it signifies Hitler’s disenchantment with Jews primarily over their race or if it isn’t really the religious ethic the Jews are meant to represent that so enraged the Führer.”
Quite obviously, Hitler didn’t like Judaism – neither did he like the influence of the Jews on Christianity, or indeed any other ideology that Jews had come across. Hitler imagined Jewish influence pervading Marxism, freemasonry and Bolshevism.
You could isolate any quote by Hitler about ‘evil Jewish bolshevism’ and claim that he primarily hated Jews because of their politics, not their religion, and use that to try and isolate any Jews who don’t self-identify as Communists.
But that would be a logical fallacy – you know that surely.
Just to reiterate the quotation under consideration: “The influence of Judaism will never fade as long as its agent, the Jew, has not been removed from our midst”.
ie. Hitler thinks Jews are agents of Judaism no matter what they say they believe.
“Your hermeneutics, or apology, for this quote thus far goes a long way to explaining how your faulty thought process could have permitted you to read “G-d is not a man” (Num. 23:19) and derived from it that Jesus, a man, is G-d!”
Yes, that’s a separate discussion – one which you’re welcome to join in.
What a friendly guy you appear to be Frank, you must be fun to have at dinner parties
Lol Ken, I love you are ‘a strong advocate for freedom speech [sic]‘ and yet want me to be censored? I guess that is about as logical as being a ‘Jew for Jesus’
By the way, you can call me Yash. You don’t need to censor the last three letters of my name like you did in the above post.
Thanks!
Oh by the way, congratulations Ken: you made it to my blog!
http://messianicjews.wordpress.com/2010/12/01/request-to-censor/
Sounds like a Jews for Jesus form of the Vatican. Who’s the Pope in your covenant? Now this next reason might seem stretched a little but take time to meditate on this other possibility. Could the reason for such a close watch have something to do with wanting to make sure that their evangelists don’t make the mistake of sexual abuse or promiscuity that some Protestant revivalists and Catholic leaders have made? Anything’s possible, right?
My take on the legalities….
Civil rights laws don’t apply to religious organizations which are free to discriminate based upon their religious views. That is why churches in Canada may discriminate against homosexuals and other immoral people in hiring. Same for JFJ.
The plaintiff may have a claim if he can show that JFJ did not have a valid religious reason for the dating standard. The court has intervened in the USA, for example, when the leaders of a church or religious school deny an employee money or promotion due to non-religous reasons. At risk is placing the government in the untenable position of determining what is and isn’t a sincerely held religious belief and teaching of a church or mission group. That is why courts usually reject worker claims.
I don’t think he will have success with his claim that the standards do not apply to him since he refused to sign. He admits he knew the standard existed and was universal for employees.
Just an additional comment about the title. Chosen People Ministries and J4J are not suing each other. There are two suits, one by Araujo against J4J and the other a cross suit by J4J against Araujo. Araujo is an employee of Chosen People Ministries, but the group is not suing.
No organisation has the right to interfere with a persons private life in such a way and then sack them for getting married! Bonkers
I have a friend who worked for J4J at one time. He said one of the reasons that he left was over the almost Stasi like control that they exercised over people and the network of spies and informants on one another. Heck I am all for Jewish Evangelism -the more the merrier, keep those “billions of dollars” flowing into Israel etc etc. But I don’t like J4J’s methods and I don’t like their decisionistic approach to evangelism, which generates false converts, which then end up populating the employment rolls of the amiss money making industry.
Stasi? Amis? There is only one linguistic group in the world that uses those two words as slang.
Herr Leon, welcome to RPP.
Heck I am all for Jewish Evangelism -the more the merrier, keep those “billions of dollars” flowing into Israel etc etc. But I don’t like J4J’s methods and I don’t like their decisionistic approach to evangelism, which generates false converts, which then end up populating the employment rolls of the amiss money making industry
Leon, please define “false convers” as opposed to “legit converts” and the false converts end up being employed in amiss money making industries?
what money making industry are you referring to?
In my wildest dreams, I never would think I would be defending any missionaries, but wild accusations about any group must be questioned.
Its on the same level of the woman accusing missionaries of giving out
jesus candies
“Its on the same level of the woman accusing missionaries of giving out
jesus candies”
What is – pointing out that Jews For Jesus try to hold sway over the romantic relationships of their workers?
Just for the record: “False convert” one who may have possess what John Wesley called “mental assent” to the fact the Y’shua is the Messiah, but in whose heart no genuine work of grace is wrought.
Decisionism -or also called “I see that hand” or “just read this prayer out loud” etc. Where salvation is reduced to a matter of putting people through a process in a mechanical fashion. This tends to foster the phenomenon of the above. I have seen it first hand. My next door neighbour is one of them, went through the J4J “process” -but shows no signs whatsoever of true regeneration. Shows no interest whatsoever in the Scriptures or fellowship with other believers. I hate this kind of thing, it’s so destructive and brings the Gospel into disrepute. Personally I prefer to just give the Word bear witness to the truth, answer questions and let the Holy Spirit do His work. It doesn’t look so good on the statistics, but the results are real and they last. As Y’shua said “No man cometh unto me except the Father draw him”
These false converts who never really possess the real thing, become discontented, bitter then leave an join some Amiss (please note this is shorthand for “Antimissionary” not a misspelling of Amish) group or organisation, where they can make oodles money from a gullible Jewish community and a name for themselves and sense of having their ego massaged by the community’s approval.
Stasi? Amis? There is only one linguistic group in the world that uses those two words as slang.
Herr Leon, welcome to RPP
Hi Ken -at least I didn’t use the phrase “Gestapo like”! Actually my German’s rather weak. Didn’t pay enough attention in class. Only now that I am older do I regret hating German so much (any language with 3 genders and no way of telling what gender any given noun is -there’s got to be something wrong with), as I have many German speaking friends, and some Spanish and Portuguese wouldn’t go amiss either.
“as I have many German speaking friends, and some Spanish and Portuguese wouldn’t go amiss either.”
“amiss” here meaning of course “not to go wrong”. I was not making a pun -then again maybe I was -in some Freudian way? To be amiss is certainly to go astray…………………………………..
Just read this a copy of the JFJ newsletter http://exjewsforjesus.blogspot.com/2010/07/brickner-marriage.html
This guys has made loads of people leave their jobs with JFJ because they broke their covenant, which would be illegal in the UK and other countries, and now he won’t even do the same thing himself… just don’t seem right.
Is this kind of thing legal in the USA?
I am genuinely shocked if it still is.
Yes, religious organizations are exempt from employment discrimination laws unlike secular groups. This is true in both GB and USA.
See The Times April 24, 2007
quote
Regulation 14 exempts religious and belief organisations, and those acting under their auspices, where that is necessary to comply with the doctrines of the organisation or to avoid conflicting with the strongly held beliefs of a significant number of a religion’s followers. So it will remain lawful for a church or mosque to refuse membership of its congregation to a gay man in accordance with its religious doctrine.
A priest will not be required by law to bless the union of a lesbian couple.
end quote
And in the USA the laws explicitly exclude religous groups.
Two of the most famous examples are the right of Boy Scouts to refuse homosexuals the opportunity to work with youth and the right of the Salvation Army to refuse to hire homosexuals.
===
There are exception when the church or mission voluntarily accepts government funds with non-discriminatory rules. Jews for Jesus did not receive gov’t funding.
Joseph,
You spouted on about “the easy yolk [sic] of Yeshua [sic]“.
Of course, there is no yoke of Jesus. Jews speak of accepting on themselves the yoke of Torah or the yoke of heaven, meaning the heavy but deeply worthwhile burden of the obligation to perform the many commandments (“mitzvohs”) spelled out in their Hebrew Bible. That very Bible emphasized repeatedly that the commandments were given to the Jews forever, never to be “completed” or “fulfilled”.
And along comes Christianity and its claim that Jesus “completed” and “fulfilled” the commandments. Christianity’s prescription for the Jews is that they no longer need accept on themselves the yoke of Torah–that they may act as they please in any given situation, rather than in accordance with divine ethics, so long as they “believe in Jesus” and his death as a substitutionary atonement for their sins.
While you advocate for Jews to eat forbidden foods, engage in forbidden relationships, worship forbidden gods, perform forbidden activities on the Sabbath, etc., you describe the complete freedom from service to G-d a “yolk [sic]“.
The inanity of your comment is the unifying theme in your fever swamp camp of Jewish evangelism: all of the arguments here are backwards and wrong. Your beliefs make you an inseparable part of the Western world’s largest organized religious community–Christianity–and yet you paint yourself as the tiniest minority, and as a Jew, though you share none of the hallmark religious beliefs that define Judaism. And on this point, let us be specific. The central tenets of Judaism are (and you, a Christian, reject all of these):
1. G-d gave the Jews the Torah and has never revoked it, nor will He ever swap it out with a new testament/covenant/bible.
2. G-d is G-d and man is man; G-d doesn’t “become” man, and man doesn’t “become” G-d. G-d created man, and He isn’t one of His creations.
3. G-d is one indivisible being, and not a panoply of distinct persons.
4. It is deeply improper to pray to a human being or to any individual other than the lone G-d of Israel.
5. The Jews, as G-d’s chosen people, are forever obligated in the Torah’s commandments.
6. G-d never punishes innocent people for the sins of guilty people; G-d is fair, loving and forgiving, and as such He cares deeply about the propriety of our deeds and organizes the world around us at all times for our benefit–even though it may not seem that way to us.
7. Prophecy ceased more than two thousand years ago, and spoken communiques received from G-d in bilateral conversations today fall under the category of hallucination; “speaking in tongues” may evidence a psychiatric disorder, but it is not proof that items 1 through 6, above, are false.
Joseph, while your ideas are thoroughly non-Jewish, I respect your right to espouse them. I do not respect your right to falsely Christen them “Jewish”; there is no such right.
Frank, this post is not about Jews who wish to observe Torah. I think that’s a fine idea. Rather, the post is about whether Jews For Jesus should dictate the terms of its employee’s relationships.
I was only commenting on your words, Joseph: “the easy yolk [sic] of Yeshua [sic]“.
Frank
I do understand why you are so angry against Christianity (my blanket term for all followers of Jesus/Yeshua). Jesus is a scandal.
Let me comment on s.th. you said in one of your earlier posts:
“Hitler hated the Jews because of what they represented: the ethical distinction between right and wrong. But those are my words. Here is what Hitler had to say himself, in his own words, on 7 August 1920:
“The influence of Judaism will never fade as long as its agent, the Jew, has not been removed from our midst”
If I understand you correctly, you are saying that Hitler hated the Jews because of their high ethical qualities. This assessment goes against the evidence. But that is not what I want to focus on. What I want to say is that the Tanakh is replete with 1. Israel’s perversions of ethical/godly standards and 2. God’s vituperations and threats of devasation against Israel through the mouth of the prophets, and 3. many destructions and several annihilations of Israel decreed/appointed by God.
And there is no reason to assume that those destructions have come to an end.
Lwetter
you say the Hebrew Bible “emphasized repeatedly that the commandments were given to the Jews forever, never to be “completed” or “fulfilled”. And along comes Christianity and its claim that Jesus “completed” and “fulfilled” the commandments.”
For you, “along came Christianity,” but for Christians (followers of Christ – Jew and Gentile). along came the CHRIST, who said: Matthew 6:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfil them.”
But then you’ll most certainly ask me to read on, which I do now:
“18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.”
Now it is obvious that much of the “Law” did disappear with the destruction of the Temple, so Jesus must have meant something else by the “Law.” And Jesus wastes no time in spelling it out. THAT is what Matt Chapter 5 – 6 and 7 – is about.
But you don’t believe that the Jesus of the Bible existed. If you believed that He really existed and said what the Bible records, you might find it harder to be certain of your position, and also more uncomfortable.
You remind me of people who say the devil doesn’t exist. These are the devil’s favourites because he doesn’t have to do anything; he’s already got them.
Similarly when someone says that Jesus doesn’t exist, the devil loves that too. For most Jews, Jesus is a figment of Paul, Constantine, or whoever. And if Jesus doesn’t exist, there’s no reason that the devil should exist either, because it was Jesus who never stopped reminding us – more than about love – that hell is a real place, reserved for the devil, his angels and those who do not believe in His sacrifice for their sin and repent. But for you the devil is drivel. But so is Christ, to the Jew first and then to all the world. It’s only natural.
Hi Bubby, I don’t think it’s “gossip” at all. This is relevant information about a public company which apparently urges its employees to resign should they divorce, but allows its leaders far more grace in their own personal lives.
But what on earth does this mean?
“I guess jesus didn’t make you any different than the traditional jews who you try to make fun of as well.”
There are plenty of problems with the Messianic world, and we wouldn’t try to hide them. You could accuse us of hypocrisy if we did. But we don’t, so you say we are not loving our brothers.
joseph, you don’t know all the details…and there are plenty more
messianic irregularies that you could look into; thats all I will say.
I already accuse the messianic movement of hypocrisy; not you personally,
you are only one person. I definitely agree with the statement below:
to me the statement show vast hypocrisy, to call it “problems” is quite an understatement
The inanity of your comment is the unifying theme in your fever swamp camp of Jewish evangelism: all of the arguments here are backwards and wrong. Your beliefs make you an inseparable part of the Western world’s largest organized religious community–Christianity–and yet you paint yourself as the tiniest minority, and as a Jew, though you share none of the hallmark religious beliefs that define Judaism. And on this point, let us be specific. The central tenets of Judaism are (and you, a Christian, reject all of these):
how do you know he didn’t offer to step down? do you know that?
how do you know what goes on at j4j?
and there is plenty of dodgy stuff we’ve blogged about in the anti-missionary and haredi world, why should the Messianic world be exempt from our scorn, we are not Free-Masons after all, we don’t need to justify every thing our co-religionists say and do.
“joseph, you don’t know all the details…and there are plenty more
messianic irregularies that you could look into; thats all I will say.”
Yes, and we have done before, such as the MJRC’s baffling attempt to outlaw beans for its sephardic (but not ashkenazi) members during Pesach, and criticised aspects of the MJTI’s theological approach to Jews who attend churches. When JFJ merit criticism we will make comment too, I’m surprised you are defending them so vigorously.
Sorry, the central tenets of Judaism are your two questions about this missionary guy? Have I missed a trick?
J4J should be ashamed of themselves. They inflict a burden on others that the likes of David Brickner cannot carry. I understand the need for shepherding, but this far beyond that and seems very heavy. I am happy they have shown grace to David Brickner, but they should also extend that to Marcello Araujo.
Much as I have every sympathy for Marcello Araujo, it is equally shameful that this business should be carried in to court.
1 Corinthians 6:1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints? v7 Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated?
Levitt
I suppose it does raise the question as to why Araujo wanted to work for JFJ in the first place if he knew what the covenant entailed and refused to sign it.
If he thought the covenant was cultish, what did he think about his employers from the get-go?
JFJ seem to have some very nice people work for em, just their HR dept is way outta line with these draconian rule that infringe personal liberties. I hear rumours that the covenant in question has been re-written.
You can’t sign a contract and then sue when you fall foul if it’s clauses. That said these are unreasonable clauses.
He didn’t sign the covenant did he!?
Gev. I wrongly assumed a contract = covenant. This portrays J4J in a worse light. They should really give the guy what is owed considering they are rightly letting Mr Brickner of his divorce.
“The Messianic World a hypocrisy??” Does this include ALL Messianic Jews or just a hand full? I ask this question because I grieves me very deeply to read some of what’s written here, as rather than tearing down this organization (and whatever else is going on here), why not pray and ask Yeshua to intervene and have ‘His Way’ in ALL of this?
I understand about making the public aware of what’s going on ‘behind the scenes’ and how it might affect them, but cutting each other to the quick, rather than trying to find some ‘common’ ground by the fact that ALL of you ‘say’ you love the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob is rather disturbing and the non-believers (and some others) Love to see things like this going on.
“Jews blaming Christians, Christians blaming Jews, Jews blaming Jews, Christians slamming Christians on behalf of the Jews, non-Jews and Christians slamming and cursing each other out”, what in the world is going on here?
bubby, I for one have NO idea what goes inside of the ‘Jews for Jesus’ (which I always thought were Jews who wanted their fellow brothers and sisters to get to know about Yeshua and what He did for ALL MANKIND) Organization, and still do not understand why a Jew should or can not believe in the Yeshua, who said and do more for the Jewish people than any other Jew I’ve ever known (think about the fact that He could have come to the Earth amongst any other people but “willingly chose YOURS”?
In the mean while, I pray to G-d that whatever is ‘wrong’ amongst the ‘Jews for Jesus’, ‘International Fellowship of Christians and Jews’, ALL others who are Jews (or Christians who name the name of Jesus Christ), that we will get down to the business of spreading the Gospel as we were commissioned to do, and get ‘our houses’ in order before Yeshua returns as He said He would (and it ends up being too late for many who should know better). Either we’re going to do what’s right by the G-d and Savior that we ‘say’ we serve and believe in, or we’ll lose out on ‘everything’ altogether. May G-d have mercy on and help us ALL.
hooray for Ema.
Ema,
You wrote that Christians had better do this and that “…before Yeshua [Jesus, according to the only accounts of his alleged existence] returns as [h]e said [h]e would”.
About that…if I were you, I wouldn’t be holding my breath.
Why not?
Because Jesus’ timeframe for coming back from the dead “as he said he would” elapsed some two thousand years ago!
So, if Jesus were to come back, at this point it would be in a fashion incompatible with “as he said he would”, and he would thus become a false prophet benefiting from a miracle. Again, I wouldn’t hold my breath awaiting such an unlikely event.
If you want to know how Jesus might have returned to the living “as he said he would”, have a look at Matt. 24:34/Mk. 13:30/Lk. 21:32: “this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things [namely, Jesus' post-crucifixion revivification] have happened.” That was two millennia ago, and none of Jesus’ audience, who constituted the generation he mentioned, remains alive. That is why Jesus is known as a false prophet. He made predictions that turned out to be untrue. Knowing that, if you still want to hang on his every word as “gospel truth”, more power to you. But I’ll conclude you’re a fool for it.
Frank,
don’t confuse people with the facts…
Frank – in context “these things” refers to the destruction of the temple – which clearly did happen within the lifetime of Yeshua’s hearers. Compare with the use of “these things” in Luke 21:7 & Mark 13:4.
Aha, Dov! So that’s why Jesus is such a reliable messianic figure from a Scriptural prophesy perspective: because his arrival heralded the destruction of the holy Temple in Zion!
Alas, your theory is sunk by a Jewish Bible that forecast just the opposite. In Ezekiel 40-7 we learn that the messiah will preside not over the Temple’s destruction but rather…it’s rebuilding.
So thank you for bringing up the fact that Jesus fulfilled the inverse of the prerequisite to establish him as a messianic candidate. You adequately underscored that there is actually less than zero reason to believe Jesus was the messiah.
Now Dov, if you want to throw out the messianic prophecy and insist despite it all that Jesus is your messiah, who am I to stop you? Just don’t come complaining to me later that I didn’t tell ya so!
I do want to point out two major problems in your theory that Matt. 24′s “these things” refer only to the Temple’s complete destruction. First, in verse 2, Jesus assured everyone that the entirety of the visible construction would be unbuilt, and yet the western retaining wall remains intact–so Jesus in verse 2 turned out again to be a false prophet. And second, in verses 30-1, Jesus predicted his own personal return in triumph and his ingathering of the Jewish exiles, all of which was to happen in the lifetime of his audience. Of course, Jesus did not come back or restore Israel from its diaspora.
You know what they say about Jesus’ forecasts, and the “new testament” generally (at least, with respect to the eternal Jewish Bible it purports to “fulfill”, “complete” or otherwise replace/supercede): everything in it that’s true isn’t new, and everything new in it isn’t true.
Have an especially great day–you’ve traded in your eternity for the convenience of abrogating the covenant, so eat, drink and be merry like today is going to be your last. It may be.
Again, thanks for your cheery comments Frank. Boy it must be fun to celebrate Hanukah with you!
Frank
In your repsonse to Ema, you speak of Jesus’s alleged existence :
“Ema, You wrote that Christians had better do this and that “…before Yeshua [Jesus, according to the only accounts of his alleged existence] returns as [h]e said [h]e would”.
It’s impossible to engage with people like you and others who come on this site (e.g. Yash, Rabbi Blumenthal, Moshe Shulman), when you question the very exstence of Jesus.
It’s like arguing about evolution with somebody who doesn’t believe that Darwin existed. Jews are generally a clever bumch, but when it comes to history, they live in a world of their own – as do the Muslims.
You may kick and scratch, but it won’t help. He did exist. Now take your courage in both hands and say he was a blasphemer as did your ancestors (and mine), and live with it.
Well Bubb there’s no problem of him confusing us with facts, we just aint heard any yet.
bography,
You wrote of Jesus, determinedly, “He did exist.”
No doubt, you believe that. You really, really do.
And if this venue were merely a forum for the discussion of your personal convictions, your final word on matters would count for everything.
But we live in a world of facts and reason, and in this real world there is scant evidence to corroborate the historicity of the Christian bible. The astounding “new testament” accounts of Jesus’ supernatural feats are surpassed in unlikeliness only by the fact that none of his contemporary historians (if he really existed) bothered recording a word about them. There is no testimony about Jesus available from anyone who claims their ancestor encountered the man, and the only way Christians know to believe in Jesus today is because some whacko fell off his horse on the road to Damascus many decades after Jesus’ supposed death and wrote the “new testament” to document what he dreampt an apparition of Jesus told him as he lay dazed in the sun next to his steed.
Now, I don’t mean to take away one iota from the sincerity of your convictions. But let’s not kid ourselves: you arrived at them via the only available route there, which is what Christians call the “leap of faith”. No objective review of the evidence could get you to where you’ve landed, and I’m not going there with you because I hold to reason. I don’t believe G-d would have given me a brain if He didn’t want and expect me to use it in my pursuit of Him. So while I respect your right to leap to bizarre conclusions that aren’t really intellectually defensible, I’ll stop short of agreeing with you that your choice to believe something silly makes that silliness true.
bography,
One other point: from an evidence perspective, it is possible that Jesus really did exist (and we don’t have any proof that he didn’t exist–we just lack objective proof that he did).
So what?
Lots of people existed. None of them were G-d. None of them were the messiah, either.
We know that none of them were G-d, because in Numbers 23:19, G-d explicitly told us, among other things, that “G-d is not a man”.
And we know that none of them were the messiah because none of the Jewish Bible’s messianic prophecy was fulfilled by anyone, and we were obviously only given that prophecy so that we’ll be able to identify the messiah when he does come. Some examples of the messianic prophecy neither Jesus nor anyone else has yet fulfilled include the establishment of everlasting and universal peace, the end of death and sickness, and the repatriation of every last Jew to sovereignty throughout the entire border of all of the historical, Biblical Land of Israel.
So, whether Jesus did or did not exist is absolutely irrelevant to Jews from a theological perspective. But, the Christian notion of the character Jesus has made a devastating impact on the Jews in terms of their survival since the dawn of your adopted religion. Here again, it makes little difference to Jews whether or not Jesus ever really lived, but what gentiles have done to Jews in the name of Jesus over the millennia has been mindbogglingly tragic. On that much, at least, the historical evidence about the effects of “Jesus” is clear and decisive.
Ema,
read Frank’s comments
Frank
Your
“There is no testimony about Jesus available from anyone who claims their ancestor encountered the man, and the only way Christians know to believe in Jesus today is because some whacko fell off his horse on the road to Damascus many decades after Jesus’ supposed death and wrote the “new testament” to document what he dreampt an apparition of Jesus told him as he lay dazed in the sun next to his steed.”
I don’t know how you arrive at such a view that Christianity is all based on Paul. But let me – purely for logic sake and not for truth/history sake -replace your “whacko” with another hypothetical “whacko”:
“The only way JEWS know to believe in HASHEM today is because some whacko (WROTE ABOUT SOMEONE WHO) SAW GOD IN A BURNING BUSH AND DREAMED UP THE IDEA THAT 2-3 MILLION OF HIS PEOPLE SAW GOD ON SOME MOUNTAIN CALLED SINAI THAT NOBODY CAN TRACE AND THEN SAT DOWN (WITH PERHAPS A LITTLE HELP) TO WRITE ALL KINDS OF STUFF THAT HE SAID GOD TOLD HIM TO DO AS HE LAY DAZED – ON SOME MOUNTAIN? IN HIS BED? AFTER BEING THROWN OFF HIS CAMEL?
Well Bubb there’s no problem of him confusing us with facts, we just aint heard any yet
Leon, then you must be more delusional than I thought. Frank has
presented many facts, the facts just don’t work into your circular thinking.
Also, Leon, if you are not a Jew, it’s ok by me to believe what you want
All have we have heard from Frank Bubby is the same kind of abusive, accusations and distortions that seem to be what counts for kiruv where you both come from. It is not we or I who are delusional Bubby, but yourselves if you really think that is will turn us on to your brand of Judaism. It might sound harsh, but let’s face it, Frank’s stuff is about as factual as your previous insistence that the sacrifices were only efficacious in the case of unintentional sins – clearly disproven by Leviticus 6 amongst other scriptures. I lump Frank’s rantings in the same category, and therefore unworthy of serious engagement.
Leon, lets set the record straight here…first of all I am not an
“antimissionary”; second, I am not looking to lure you into anything;
I will leave that to the missionaries who do “scripture twisting: and
use deception to make jewish people think that believing in jesus
is somehow jewish and not christian.
Leon, obviously something we have said has caused you to prickle a
bit..maybe its truth and its not easy to take.
Accusing everyone who disagrees with your “messyantics” as
antimissionaries is just as silly as antimissionaries accusing all
christians of being missionaries.