On this Outreach Judaism promo video, note the use of a Swastika to tie Messianic Jews to spiritual Nazis, and the endorsement of Tovia Singer as a modern-day prophet:
How bizarre.
It makes me wonder, though, why do outfits like Operation Judaism and Yad L’Achim bother with all this Nazi imagery? Why not simply be straight-forward, and say that they are opposing Messianic theology because they consider it a dangerous heresy, and leave it at that?
I think that these groups try to juj up their role, in order to grab people’s attention.
But ultimately this kind of lofty rhetoric weakens their arguments, and makes them look a bit silly.
Really, no Jews think that Tovia Singer is actually a prophet, although many Jews do think he is a very naughty boy.
Joseph, really, I had to look at it three times to see the Swastika. I don’t like when people use that, but you can’t deny that the Nazi program comes straight from Luther, and that the Lutheran church was a big supporter of them.
As to your reference to Tovia being a ‘naughty boy’ I think you need to be careful. I looked at that site and they had nothing.
I think Hitler played heavily on Luther’s anti-Semitism, yes.
The thing is, Tovia Singer doesn’t identify Lutherans as a potential problem group. If you listen here, Singer says that mainstream liberal Protestant denominations are not trying to convert Jews, only conservative evangelicals are.
So I don’t see how Singer can associate missionaries with Luther and Nazism, if he doesn’t think the Lutherans are missionaries in the first place. In any case the Lutherans have distanced themselves from Luther’s antisemitism, and Luther himself didn’t use a swastika even though he was anti-Semitic, so it’s anachronistic at the very least.
You’re right to acknowledge though, the role of mainstream Christian denominations in supporting Hitler, which is still horrifying and an incomprehensible, utter shame.
Ironically the swastika came from a decorative symbol gracing the Roman Catholic chapel at young Adolf’s school. Every worship service he looked upon it His artistic nature led him to develop the swastika theme years later.
In his “Of the Jews and Their Lies”, Luther wrote that the Jews are the “children of the devil” who congregate under the devil’s anus so as to consume it’s dung. Luther prescribed in that pamphlet a Final Solution that involved stripping the Jews of human rights, burning down all synagogues and turning over the earth over their remains to as to write their existence out of history.
And today, what do the Lutherans whom you say distanced themselves from anti-Semitism call themselves? Lutherans.
And Lutherans aren’t the only Christians to have similarly distanced themselves from the anti-Semitism that Luther embodied. Luther is a revered figure across the Protestant world.
Just ask Ken Thomas, the missionary here who calls himself an “Aryan”.
Moishe, did not the Roman Catholic Inquisition kill us Hugenots and Anabaptists as well as Jews?
Did not the state churches of Russia, Greece, eastern Europe, and Rome do the same to us all? There is a spiritual and religious reason for this.
Ken Thomas, did not you call yourself an “Aryan”? An Aryan?!
Luther is the founder of the reformation which is what protestants are part of. Of course, Calvin was even worse.
Messianics have a shady past when it comes to this issue. Lots of skeletons in the closet.
Ken, I am not sure what you mean by “did not the Roman Catholic Inquisition kill us Hugenots and Anabaptists” if not to throw in a red herring. The Catholics mad war on the Lutherans, so maybe they are the good guys.
A pox on both your houses.
Mo–
The Catholics mad war on the Lutherans, so maybe they are the good guys. A pox on both your houses.
Both were persecutors. Both houses persecuted evangelicals and Jews. Welcome to our house… POX FREE!
Ken, Catholics and Lutherans can and are also evangelicals. Hard to find any innocent Christians denominations in this argument.
Moishe,
The same people who persecute Jews also persecute us Bible-believing, evangelical Christians. They are equally hostile to our common faith in the God of the Bible.
Der Fueher, for example, complained against Christianity as being “too soft” and making the Germanic peoples “weak” with its emphasis upon themes like forgiveness. He said he Islam was a better religion for Germans and planned to turn against the all forms of Christianity after his expected victory.
The same evil spirit of hatred and intolerance characterizes extremists in Islam, extremists in India’s BJP political party, and extremists in Israel. Fortunately the vast majority of Israelis reject their extremists.
Speaking of the “evil spirit of hatred”, Ken, why is it that you call yourself an “Aryan” missionary?
Moshe
Your
“the Nazi program comes straight from Luther.”
Do you mean by “comes straight from Luther” that without Luther, there would have not been a 1. the evil Nazi program 2. the very evil Nazi program, 3. the very very evil Nazi program, or 4. any Nazi program at all?
Eh?
All 4 look good to me.
1) Asher Wade, former Methodist pastor; he converted in 1978 to Orthodox Judaism. [http://www.Asherwade.com]
2) Ole Brunell, former Lutheran minister from Finland and Australia. Along with him, his wife Ruth (formerly Runa), two adult daughters, two teenage daughters, and a former son-in-law also converted to Orthodox Judaism. [http://www.amazon.com/dp/9652293040][http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1132053873725&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull][http://covenantmindedministries.com/listing_of_notable_christian_apostates]
3) Geza Vermes, expert on the Dead Sea Scrolls and former Catholic priest, he reverted to Judaism. [http://www.buy.com/prod/providential-accidents-an-autobiography/q/loc/106/30499666.html]
4) JoAnn Fay, a nun converted to Orthodox Judaism in 1980. [http://www.torahjudaism.org/?p=39]
5) John David Scalamonti, a former Roman Catholic priest, he converted in 1972 to Orthodox Judaism [http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&isbn=0881254126&itm=6][http://www.jweekly.com/article/full/8284/ex-christian-ministers-now-active-orthodox-jews/]
[http://www.amazon.com/dp/0881254126]
6) John Hove, a former Lutheran pastor, he converted to Orthodox Judaism in 1988.[http://www.jweekly.com/article/full/8284/ex-christian-ministers-now-active-orthodox-jews/] [http://www.torahjudaism.org/?p=113]
7) Sheldon Christopher Smith, a former Pentecostal Pastor converted to Judaism in 1987 [http://www.torahjudaism.org/?p=79]
8 ) Thomas Roper, a former Baptist minister, he converted to Orthodox Judaism. [http://www.torahjudaism.org/?p=133]
9) Gavriel Sanders, former Pentecostal minister and missionary in Israel, he converted to Orthodox Judaism. He served on staff with Jews for Judaism before moving to the East Coast. [http://www.Gavrielsanders.com][http://www.ministersjourney.blogspot.com/]
10) Tonica Marlow, a former female evangelical minister and daughter of a Pentecostal preacher. She converted to Orthodox Judaism. [http://www.amazon.com/dp/9657108357][http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/745589/jewish/Im-Telling-You-Child-You-Are-a-Gentile.htm][http://www.chabadpeoria.com/templates/articlecco_cdo/aid/632549/jewish/playing-with-fire.htm]
11) Aharón Calderón, a former monk of a Catholic monastery in South America, he converted to Orthodox Judaism. [http://www.lchaimweekly.org/lchaim/5767/979.htm]
12) Armando Quiros, a former catholic priest, he converted to Orthodox Judaism. [http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&isbn=156474356X&itm=5]
13) Julie Galambush, a former American Baptist Minister, she converted to Judaism. [http://www.harpercollins.com/authors/27450/Julie_Galambush/index.aspx]
14) Michael Flanagan, a former Baptist minister, and son of a Minister, his mother-in-law, wife and their two adult sons, grandchildren, daughter-in-law also converted to Orthodox Judaism.[http://www.torahjudaism.org/?p=137]
15) Ahuva Gray, served as a Christian minister in the African American community both in Chicago and Los Angeles for fourteen years. She left that world in 1996 to fulfill her spiritual yearnings and become an Orthodox Jew. [http://www.mysisterthejew.com] [http://www.amazon.com/dp/1568712766][http://www.mysisterthejew.com/pages/bio.htm][http://www.jewishmag.com/64mag/ahuva/ahuva.htm][http://www.aish.com/ci/a/48943156.html][http://www.jewishjournal.com/community/article/from_baptist_to_beshert_20010406/][http://www.aish.com/ci/a/48931932.html][http://www.tufts.edu/as/stu-org/hillel/eventscalendar.htm][http://www.torah.org/features/firstperson/baptist.html][http://www.torahanytime.com/media/Ms/Ahuva_Gray/2008-11-24/Inspiring_Journey_From_Ordained_Minister_to_Torah_Observant_Jew/Ms__Ahuva_Gray__Inspiring_Journey_From_Ordained_Minister_to_Torah_Observant_Jew__2008-11-24.wmv]
16) Nobutaka Hattori, a former Protestant Minister of Japan, he converted to Orthodox Judaism.[http://www.ou.org/pdf/ja/5766/summer66/24_27.pdf]
17) Carlos Samuel Salas, a former Methodist minister, he converted to Orthodox Judaism.[http://www.jewishresearch.org/BL_archives/12_16_04BL.htm#rabbi]
18) David N. Weiss, Former Presbyterian lay minister David Weiss (born Jewish) embraced Orthodox Judaism and is now a successful writer living in Los Angeles. [http://www.ikehillah.org/shrekonjudaism1/]
19) Abraham Carmel, born Kenneth Cox, a former Anglican and Roman Catholic priest, he converted to Orthodox Judaism. [http://www.amazon.com/So-Strange-Path-Spiritual-Pilgrimage/dp/0819700401] [http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20073218,00.html]
20) Mariano Otero, a former Assemblies of G-d minister is now a counter-missionary [TWENTY-SIX REASONS WHY JEWS DON'T BELIEVE IN JESUS] [http://www.jewishcuba.org/descendants.html]
21)Carole Le Faivre-Rochester, a former Domican nun, she converted to Judaism in 1989 [http://www.jewishexponent.com/article/14015/%20Stars%20of%20David]
22) Yaakov Ephraim Parisi, former Pentecostal minister [http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/126736][http://www.thesunchronicle.com/articles/2009/02/07/faith/4334541.txt][http://www.chabadhouston.org/news/article_cdo/aid/625991/jewish/A-Taste-of-Yeshiva.htm]
23) Ary’el Tsion, formerly known as Bert Woudwijk, a Messianic pastor from Holland [http://www.shalomgemeente.nl/Joods.htm]
24) Leon Fundo, former Seventh Day Adventist preacher [http://www.jewsforhashem.com/MoreTestimonies.html]
25) Moriya Webster, former Worldwide Church of God pastor [http://www.njjewishnews.com/njjn.com/122508/njBlackAndJewish.html]
26) Dov Heller, former Minister and missionary [The Jewish People's Almanac]
27) Benjamin Klugger, former Pentecostal missionary, now Orthodox Jew and head of counter-missionary organization
28) Paul H Goodley, former Messianic “rabbi” [TWENTY-SIX REASONS WHY JEWS DON'T BELIEVE IN JESUS]
29) Efraim Uba, was raised Catholic, later became a Pentecostal preacher then became a Messianic in Nigeria, and then later left that Christian sect to convert to Judaism. [http://www.forward.com/articles/14317/]
30) Celia Futch-Rogow, former Methodist minister [THE JEWISH NEWS of Detroit, March 5, 2004 p.41]
31) Hector Flores, a former evangelical minister, converted with 100 members of his Houston church [http://www.aish.com/sp/so/48932037.html]
32) Yuval Yisrael, a former evangelical pastor and messianic leader for 20 years [http://virtualyeshiva.com/vy_whoweare.html]
33) Lawrence Hamilton, former Lutheran minister [http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=3241]
34) Julius Ciss, former messianic “Jewish” missionary [http://jewsforjudaism.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=23&Itemid=228]
35) Kenneth Cox, former Catholic Priest [http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20073218,00.html]
36) Samuel Golding, former Christian minister [http://www.kosherjudaism.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=975]
37) Skipp Porteous, former Pentecostal minister [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skipp_Porteous]
38) Penina Taylor, a former messianic “Jewish” leader [http://www.peninataylor.com/nutshell.php]
39) Shmuel Yakobi, a former Indian preacher [http://www.kulanu.org/india/telugu_jews.php]
40) Barrie Wilson, biblical scholar, author and educator [http://www.boston.com/ae/books/articles/2008/03/23/faith_examined/]
41) Chuck Snow, former Messianic “rabbi” of London now Orthodox Jew
42) Yeshayahu Heiliczer, former Messianic “rabbi” now Orthodox Jew [http://countermissionary.org/articles/journey.htm]
43) John Castellaños, former Evangelical minister converted to Orthodox Judaism [http://recordings.talkshoe.com/TC-31687/TS-180586.mp3]
44) Tom Gagliano, former Messianic congregation leader converted to Orthodox Judaism [http://www.interfaithfamily.com/news_and_opinion/synagogues_and_the_jewish_community/Star-Crossed_Missionaries_Valley_Sees_Wave_of_Messianic_Proselytizing.shtml?rd=2]
45) Pablo Martinez, former Baptist minister [http://www.palmbeachpost.com/localnews/content/tcoast/epaper/2008/06/22/converts0622.html]
46) Nati, former Messianic “rabbi” in Florida [http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8108602649886339211#]
47) Nestor Komer, former Mennonite preacher [media.isnet.org/off/Judaism/komer.html]
48) Reuven, former Messianic “rabbi” [http://wonderingjew.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!681A30C354BCD4DB!158.entry]
49) Ezra Schley [http://killingthebuddha.com/mag/dispatch/kind-of-like-jews/]
I thought you might find this interesting
This is wonderful, Bubby. People must always be free to chose their faith for themselves. Isn’t freedom of speech and freedom to evangelize wonderful!
Only an insecure and backward faith built upon fear and coercion would try to prevent conversionary free speech. Let the free speech continue.
Only an insecure and backward faith built upon fear and coercion would try to prevent conversionary free speech. Let the free speech continue.
What are you implying here Ken? That Jews who do not care for
missionary tactics in trying to convert Jews into christians are insecure
and backward?
Booby axed a fair question–What are you implying here Ken? That Jews who do not care for missionary tactics in trying to convert Jews into [C]hristians are insecure and backward?
Au contraire, mon ami. Jews who do not care for missionary tactics are not necessarily insecure or backward. It is only the minority who violate the free speech of missionaries who are insecure and backward.
I welcome non-Christians who disagree with Jesus Christ, evangelism, and conversions. And I respect their right to peacefully express their opposition in any legal way they wish.
Great!
Just wondering why we have an ex-Messianic Jew and an ex-Christian in the process of converting to Judaism hectoring us about how evil we are for believing in Jesus?
who is the ex christian converting to judaism? someone in here?
No one said you were evil…Joe we want you to not miss out on
who you are!
Haha you’re alright bubby
ta bubby, we cover a few of these people in our posts, we look at some of these other ones too. Were is the list from? There are a few corrections for them.
27) Benjamin Klugger, born a Catholic btw is not “head of counter-missionary organization” he just works for Yad L’Achim http://roshpinaproject.com/2009/09/01/zeal-of-a-convert-rubenstein-klugger-messianic-jew/
28) Paul H Goodley, former Messianic “rabbi” – a claim with no proof offered yet! http://roshpinaproject.com/2010/03/23/introducing-paul-pesach-h-goodley-tom-j-goes-o-j/
6) Nati, former Messianic “rabbi” in Florida – I don’t think he ever claims to have been a Messianic rabbi.
Anyhoo I’d make a good guess that at least one of them is commenting here
because they make money from Amazon links??
Seriously though. I know a gent in the UK who was born in Malta with Jewish ancestry, brought up as a Catholic (which he describes as a religious institution – not a relationship with Jesus) then discovered Jesus as his Lord and savior, now took an interest in his Jewish roots and is Messianic, embracing his Jewish identity and has a lot of energy and enthusiam to share Yeshua with Jews, Arabs and gentiles.
If people like Pnina Taylor’s, etc story is genuine, is being messianic should be a stepping stone to regulary Judiasm? If they didn’t go to a Messanic fellowship maybe they would of stayed as a non-religious Jew or regular Christian. Wonder what critics of this site think.
If people like Pnina Taylor’s, etc story is genuine, is being messianic should be a stepping stone to regulary Judiasm? If they didn’t go to a Messanic fellowship maybe they would of stayed as a non-religious Jew or regular Christian. Wonder what critics of this site think.
Let me understand this way of thinking, so it was better for Penina
to be a Jew living as a christian because the alternative would have been she would not be a religious Jew? Talk about justification for nutty thinking! Maybe you should ask Penina about this before you make such statements; my relatives who are messiantics are harming their children; not everything can be undone and its NOT a stepping stone to becoming religious.
Jeff, being messianic is not a stepping stone, only a small percentage
get back to true Judaism, most get stuck in their bizarre thinking.
Joseph, so you never answered me…who is the ex christian converting
to Judaism? which one of the many cast of characters in here?
Anonymous, I think.
Did a certain party from Newark Anon convert last December? Read his testimony.
http://roshpinaproject.com/2011/03/11/report-on-anti-messianic-jewish-demo-in-arad/
(Of course I would want to keep my identity anonymous, if I were from Newark too!)
For impatient readers, scroll down to March 19, 2011 at 5:31 am. I respect Anon’s freedom to choose badly!
Note that the headline of this blog accuses Rabbi Singer of touting himself as a “prophet”. If the bloggers here can lie about that, in their headline, what else that they are saying might be untrustworthy?
And what of the fact that their chief cheerleader here, Ken Thomas, is a missionary that proudly calls himself an “Aryan” and who constantly talks to and about Jews using specifically German lingo, as in “Der Fuhrer”? How deep does the professed Christian “love of the Jewish people” run here, when underneath the very superficial missionary costume we’re dealing with a Nazi aficionado here? Just remember, every missionary–indeed, every Christian–is religiously duty-bound to believe that every Nazi who “accepted Jesus” is going to heaven, and every Jew who didn’t is going to hell. If you can believe that a good and just G-d operates by that logic, then your problems are not so much religious as they are psychiatric.
“Really, no Jews think that Tovia Singer is actually a prophet, although many Jews do think he is a very naughty boy”
Oh yeah, that was a really reputable website. I read it several times, even the majority of posters there would seem to disagree with your perspective.
“Just wondering why we have an ex-Messianic Jew and an ex-Christian in the process of converting to Judaism hectoring us about how evil we are for believing in Jesus?”
Ok, Joseph, does that mean that anyone formerly in those movements doesn’t have a legitimate opinion on this issue. I have no difficulty discussing the fact that I am a former Messianic, and a former christian and yes I am converting to Judaism. Guess, what…in my dreams I wish I was on someone’s payroll to voice my opinion..any pro-Judaism organizations that want an inside scoop on the “Messy-antic” movement, please I will gladly forward my email address to you and speak at any lectures you care to book me at. However, back in reality I will gladly take any of this nonsense to task because it is precisely that…nonsense. And it needs to be attacked and dismissed wherever it happens.
What of it…..As for being a stepping stone, I don’t think so. More like something that blurs the issue.
If anything, I think someone who was uniquely involved in the movement has a very valuable, very unique perspective on the process. Not the least reasons being that it suddenly doesn’t become this cakewalk now that I am converting. The suspicion that is present because of mine and my wife’s former “ties” is continuing to prove to be a major stumbling block for some people in our community. The rabbi who is converting us made that very clear from the outset. It ain’t an easy road, but the more I read tripe like the stuff written at “RPP”..I know its the right road!!!!
Thats just me, a former xtian who is choosing to convert…I will give jbb’s who have difficulty with that the benefit of the doubt…they are protecting their own. However, someone like Tovia is a bit of a different fish, isn’t he?? The whole “prophet” thing, I don’t know about that. But he has helped many confused and deluded Jews return to the fold. He is way outside of your league…leave it that way and move on!!!!!!
The swastika is a symbol of Hinduism you idiots. But he’s doing a mitzvah taking people away from “Messianic” avodah zara.