This is Part 1 of our Emden-Eybeschutz series
R. Jacob Emden
R. Jacob Emden is one of the most famous and important rabbis in Jewish history, and his writings have had a major impact on the formation of contemporary Orthodox Judaism. Here is Emden writing about the gospels, in order to convince his readers that Jesus and his disciples were all Torah-observant Jews who inspired love and faithfulness amongst the Gentiles.
Really, some of these quotes are quite stunning, and Emden comes across as far more gracious and sincere than the counter-Messianic scare-mongers, although we should bear in mind that this is not a difficult achievement.
I have highlighted in bold some of Emden’s statements that are particularly interesting for us.
Make of this what you will!
From R. Emden’s letter Seder Olam Rabbah Vezuta:
For it is recognized that also the Nazarene and his disciples, especially Paul, warned concerning the Torah of the Israelites, to which all the circumcised are tied. And if they are truly Christians, they will observe their faith with truth, and not allow within their boundary this new unfit Messiah Shabbetai Zevi who came to destroy the earth.
But truly even according to the writers of the Gospels, a Jew is not permitted to leave his Torah, for Paul wrote in his letter to the Galatians (Gal. 5) “I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, the Messiah will do you no good at all. You can take it from me that every man who receives circumcision is under obligation to keep the entire Torah.” Again because of this he admonished in a letter to the Corinthians (1 Cor. 7) that the circumcised should not remove the marks of circumcision, nor should the uncircumcised circumcise themselves.
Many have asked that Paul appears to contradict himself here. In the Acts of the Apostles (Acts 16), it is mentioned that Paul circumcised his disciple Timothy. And they found this very puzzling, for this act seems to contradict the later text which seems to indicate that he considered circumcision a temporary commandment until the Messiahs arrival; but this took place after the time of the Nazarene! Therefore you must realize–and accept the truth from him who speaks it– that we see clearly here that the Nazarene and his Apostles did not wish to destroy the Torah from Israel, God forbid; for it is written so in Matthew (Mt. 5), the Nazarene having said, “Do not suppose that I have come to abolish the Torah. I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. I tell you this: So long as heaven and earth endure, not a letter, not a stroke, will disappear from the Torah until it is achieved. If any man therefore sets aside even the least of the Torahs demands, and teaches others to do the same, he will have the lowest place in the Kingdom of Heaven, whereas anyone who keeps the Torah, and teaches others so, will stand high in the Kingdom of Heaven.” This is also recorded in Luke (Lk. 16). It is therefore exceedingly clear that the Nazarene never dreamed of destroying the Torah.
We similarly find Paul, his disciple, in a letter to the Corinthians (1 Cor. 5), accusing them of fornication, and condemning one who had lived with his fathers wife. You may therefore understand that Paul doesnt contradict himself because of his circumcision of Timothy, for the latter was the son of a Jewish mother and a Gentile father (Acts 16), and Paul was a scholar, an attendant of Rabban Gamaliel the Elder, well-versed in the laws of the Torah. He knew that the child of a Jewish mother is considered a full Jew, even if the father should be a Gentile, as is written in the Talmud and Codes. He therefore acted entirely in accordance with the Halakha by circumcising Timothy. This would be in line with his position that all should remain within their own faith (1 Cor. 7). Timothy, born of a Jewish mother, had the law of a Jew, and had to be circumcised, just as he was enjoined to observe all commandments of the Torah (Pauls condemnation of the man who lived with his stepmother is similarly understandable, as such an act is also forbidden to Noahides), for all who are circumcised are bound by all the commandments. This provides a satisfactory reply to the question.
This will also solve the apparent contradictions in the Nazarenes own statements. Christian scholars have assumed from certain passages in the Gospels that he wished to give a new Torah to take the place of the Torah of Moses. How could he then have said explicitly that he comes only to fulfill it? But it is as I have said earlier–that the writers of the Gospels never meant to say that the Nazarene came to abolish Judaism, but only that he came to establish a religion for the Gentiles from that time onward. Nor was it new, but actually ancient; they being the Seven Commandments of the Sons of Noah, which were forgotten. The Apostles of the Nazarene then established them anew. However, those born as Jews, or circumcised as converts to Judaism (Ex. 12:49; one law shall be to him that is home-born, and unto the stranger) are obligated to observe all commandments of the Torah without exception.
But for the Gentiles he reserved the Seven Commandments which they have always been obligated to fulfill. It is for that reason that they were forbidden pollutions of idols, fornication, blood, and things strangled (Acts 15). They also forbade them circumcision and the Sabbath. All of this was in accord with the law and custom of our Torah, as expounded by our Sages, the true transmitters from Moses at Sinai. It was they who sat upon his seat (as the Nazarene himself attested [Mt. 23]). It was they (the Sages or Pharisees) who said that it is forbidden to circumcise a Gentile who does not accept upon himself the yoke of (all) the commandments. The Sages likewise said that the Gentile is enjoined not (fully) to observe the Sabbath. The Apostles of the Nazarene therefore chose for those Gentiles who do not enter the Jewish faith that instead of circumcision they should practice immersion (for truly immersion is also a condition of full conversion), and a commemoration of the Sabbath was made for them on Sunday. — But the Nazarene and his Apostles observed the Sabbath and circumcision as mentioned earlier, for they were born as Jews. They observed the Torah fully, until after a period of time a few of them decided to give up the Torah among themselves completely. They said that its observance was too difficult for them and agreed to remove its yoke from their necks (Acts 15).
But even here they did correctly as far as the Gentiles were concerned, for they were not commanded to observe it. Nor is it proper to make it difficult for them, since they did not receive (accept?) the Torah and are not enjoined to ob serve the 613 commandments. However, it is completely different as far as the Jews are concerned, for they became obligated to fulfill the Torah because God delivered them from the iron furnace (Egypt) to be the people of his possession. Therefore they and their children became subject to it forever. This, their covenant, will not be forgotten from their mouths, nor be discontinued from their children. For it they have given their lives throughout the generations, as the Psalmist has recorded (Ps. 44:18): All this is come upon us; yet have we not forgotten Thee, neither have we been false to Thy covenant.
Certainly, therefore, there is no doubt that one who seeks truth will agree with our thesis, that the Nazarene and his Apostles never meant to abolish the Torah of Moses from one who was born a Jew. Likewise did Paul write in his letter to the Corinthians (1 Cor. 7) that each should adhere to the faith in which each was called. They therefore acted in accordance with the Torah by forbidding circumcision to Gentiles, according to the Halakha, as it is forbidden to one who does not accept the yoke of the commandments. They knew that it would be too difficult for the Gentiles to observe the Torah of Moses. They therefore forbade them to circumcise, and it would suffice that they observe the Seven Noahide Commandments, as commanded upon them through the Halakha from Moses at Sinai.
It is therefore a habitual saying of mine (not as a hypocritical flatterer, God forbid, for I am of the faithful believers of Israel, and I know well that the remnant of Israel will not speak falsehood, nor will their mouths contain a deceitful tongue) that the Nazarene brought about a double kindness in the world. On the one hand, he strengthened the Torah of Moses majestically, as mentioned earlier, and not one of our Sages spoke out more emphatically concerning the immutability of the Torah. And on the other hand, he did much good for the Gentiles (provided they do not turn about his intent as they please, as some foolish ones have done because they did not fully understand the intent of the authors of the Gospels. I have recently seen someone publish a book, and he had no idea about what he was writing. For if he had understood the subject, he would have kept his silence and not wasted the paper and ink. There are also found among us foolish scholars who know not their right from their left in the Written and Oral Torahs and cause the people to err with their pompous pronouncements. But there are true scholars among the Christians, just as there are the chosen few among Torah scholars; and there are few of the truly great.) by doing away with idolatry and removing the images from their midst. He obligated them with the Seven Commandments so that they should not be as the beasts of the field. He also bestowed upon them ethical ways, and in this respect he was much more stringent with them than the Torah of Moses, as is well-known. This in itself was most proper, as it is the correct way to acquire ethical practices, as the philosopher (Maimonides) mentioned. We have written similarly in our Siddur. However, it is not necessary to impose upon Jews such extreme ethical practices, since they have been obligated to the yoke of Torah, which weakens the strength of the (evil) inclination without it. They have taken the oath at Sinai and are already trained in proper practice and nature. These are clear words that will not be rejected by a clear-thinking person.
If certain Christians who consider themselves scholars would understand this secret, who believe that they are commanded to abolish the Torah of Moses from the seed of Israel, they would not engage in such foolishness. The people listen to their self-conceived words, something which was never intended by the writers of the Gospels. Quite the opposite, they have written clearly that they intended the contrary.
Because of these errant scholars, hatred has increased toward the Jews who are blameless of any guilt and proceed innocently to observe their Torah with all their heart, imbued with the fear of God. They should instead bring their people to love the ancient Children of Israel who remain loyal to their God, as indeed commanded to Christians by their original teachers.
They even said to love ones enemies. How much more so to us! In the name of heaven, we are your brothers! One God has created us all. Why should they abuse us because we are joined to the commandments of God, to which we are tied with the ropes of his love? We do this not to enjoy the pleasures of the (evil) inclination and emptiness of a passing world. For truly (Ps. 44) we have become a byword among the nations, and with all this (ibid.). In God have we gloried all the day, and we will give thanks unto Thy name for ever. We pray for the good of the entire world, and especially for the benefit of these lands in which we reside, protecting us and our observance of the Torah…
You, members of the Christian faith, how good and pleasant it might be if you will observe that which was commanded to you by your first teachers; how wonderful is your share if you will assist the Jews in the observance of their Torah. You will truly receive reward as if you had fulfilled it yourselves-for the one who helps others to observe is greater than one who observes but does not help others to do so–even though you only observe the Seven Commandments. I have written similarly in my pleasant work Torat Ha-Kenaot– that the Jew who observes the Torah, but doesnt support it, is considered among the cursed; and the Gentile who does not observe the 613 commandments, but supports it, is considered among the blessed.
This is only Part 1? Excellent!
Thanks
The Emden-Eybeschutz debacle is huge, there’s so much to say on it, and how it relates to Messianic Jews. Step-by-step we’ll get there!
Debacle or debate?!?
Really interesting post tho’!
Maybe “controversy” is the right word!
Excellent stuff, Joe. Every Christian and Jew should read this.
He writes very negative things elsewhere regarding those who believe in trinity.
“He writes very negative things elsewhere regarding those who believe in trinity.”
That’s OK, I don’t believe in Trinity either (if by that you mean that there are three gods).
Gene, that’s the only Christian meaning of the word “trinity”: three distinct persons comprising the overall “godhood” collective. If you can’t buy into that, you’re not much of a Christian.
“If you can’t buy into that, you’re not much of a Christian.”
Well, Anonymous, if I am not much of a “Christian” according to you, what beef do you have with me then?
I like you Gene, but you know very well what anyone means by trinity. No xtrian believes that trinity means 3 gods; rather 3 parts of a single god. Which is completely against Torah and what Moshe gave us at Sinai.
Come on brother!!
“No xtrian believes that trinity means 3 gods; rather 3 parts of a single god. Which is completely against Torah and what Moshe gave us at Sinai.”
Nosson, since you confirm that Christians indeed believe in a single god, how exactly does this fact make them “polytheists” (who by definition worship multiple gods)?
No, I don’t believe that there are three separate persons in G-d, but why can’t this single G-d have multiple parts comprising one whole: don’t we ourselves have multiple parts (nephesh, neshama, body)? Why can’t G-d have multiple emanations (10 per Zohar)? Why can’t G-d’s Presence and G-d Spirit indwell places and individuals (while G-d himself is everywhere)? You know that the answer is: yes, He can, He did and He does.
Gene,
G-d did a lot of things that can be counted. He gave rise to twelve sons of Israel. He caused Joseph to dream about eleven stars. He pronounced ten commandments. He created a reproductive cycle in which women give birth after nine months. He ruled that circumcision should be performed on boys after eight days. He established a seven day week. He conveyed to Moses at Sinai six orders, or broad sections, of law. He gave the Jews five books called the Pentateuch. He brought Jewry into existence from the wombs of four mothers. He refined the Jews through the parentage of three forefathers. He presented Moses with two tablets. No one denies that G-d created a world that can be described with lots of different numbers.
But there is only one G-d. And the way we know this is because He told it to us: “Israel: the L-rd (in the singular) your G-d (in the singular) is one” (Deuteronomy 6:4). Not three. One.
Your “parts” theory (“why can’t this single G-d have multiple parts…?”), insofar as it can fit with the Christological multiple personality theory of G-d is ruled out by G-d Himself in Deut. 32:39 (“There is no G-d besides Me [in the singular]“), Isaiah 44:8 (“Is there any god besides Me [in the singular]? No”) and Is. 45:6 (“know there is none besides Me [in the singular]. I [and not we] am [in the singular] the L-rd [in the singular], and there is no other”). And even if you were to argue that G-d were a collection of parts that comprised one individual capable of appropriately refering to Himself in the singular, that would necessarily rule out the possibility that G-d could be a trinity, since the population defined as Jesus + his father + something that goes boo in the night cannot rationally speak as “I” or “me”. In any event, that oral tradition from Sinai you profess to be an expert in and committed to following explicitly declares G-d’s absolute unity, individuality and indivisibility. But other than that, it’s a great theory!
“In any event, that oral tradition from Sinai you profess to be an expert in and committed to following explicitly declares G-d’s absolute unity, individuality and indivisibility. But other than that, it’s a great theory!”
You don’t know much about what our sages teach, do you?
“There are three [occurrences of G-d's] names here, so how are they one? We proclaim One, yet how can they be one [and thus called "One"]? This is made known through a vision of Divine Inspiration. They become part of the mystery of the closed eye [that we close our eyes while making this declaration], to make known that the three are one.”
“And this is the secret of the audible sound. Sound is one, and has three aspects – fire, air, and water – which are all one in the secret of the sound. Also here, ” G-d is our L-rd; G-d” are all one. They are three aspects but are one. ”
From http://www.chabad.org/kabbalah/article_cdo/aid/1395938/jewish/Day-5.htm
So, One G-d, multiple “aspects” (per Zohar). Sounds a bit too Christian for your comfort?
Gene,
What does that passage mean to you? Does it mean that there’s a trinity? Did you find Jesus, his father and a ghost there? Please be direct and come right out with whatever it is that you’re trying to wrench out of this text.
“What does that passage mean to you? Does it mean that there’s a trinity? Did you find Jesus, his father and a ghost there? Please be direct and come right out with whatever it is that you’re trying to wrench out of this text.”
Quite simple, Anonymous – G-d is a bit more complex than what you wish to paint him in your polemics. Our sages have understood it. The Spirit (Ruach) of HaShem is clearly spoken of in the Tanakh. It doesn’t make Ruach a “second person in trinity” (per Christianity) – rather, the Ruach is one of the emanations of HaShem (who still remains One). That’s Judaism.
Furthermore, the Spirit of Maschiach is equated in Midrash with The Spirit of G-d. Ready to read for yourself?
“The Midrash looks at the second part of the our verse (the part about “the spirit of G-d hovering above the face of the waters“) and explains: “This is the spirit of Moshiach.”
From: http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/60063/jewish/The-Hovering-Spirit.htm
Did you catch that? The Spirit that hovered over waters of creation is called in the Torah “the spirit of G-d” and Midrash calls it the “spirit of Maschiach”.
What can I say… you will be mightily shocked to see Yeshua the Messiah when he returns. How will you face him seeing that you have turned your back on him after knowing him?
Please, Anon, can we know something about the way you worship?
We know you’re not Jewish, you say you follow the God of the Bible only, are you a Noahide? A Karaite? A Christian Unitarian?
Whoever you are, you’re clearly not an Orthodox Jew.
Anon, you say:
“What does that passage mean to you?”
I see you are practising for your role as the Evil Son this Pesach!
LOL nice one Joseph
Gene,
I see you’re suffering from selective amnesia again. You copied the paragraph from Chabad, but took it, in your usual habit, wholly out of context, seeking to imbue it with a false Christological appearance:
“The Midrash looks at the second part of the our verse (the part about ‘the spirit of G-d hovering above the face of the waters’) and explains: ‘This is the spirit of Moshiach.’”
Sounds pretty Christian, right? Sounds like this article could be speaking of Jesus in messianic terms–until you read the immediately ensuing paragraphs that are the context for the surgically selected quote you chose:
“Who and what is Moshiach? Maimonides describes him as the one who ‘will restore the kingdom of David to its glory of old… He will build the Holy Temple and gather the dispersed of Israel. In his times, all laws of the Torah will be reinstated.’
And: ‘In those times, there will be no hunger or war, no jealousy or rivalry. For the good will be plentiful, and all delicacies available as dust. The occupation of the entire world will be only to know G-d.’
In other words, the world that you, I and every decent human being dreams of every day.
And that was hovering above, waiting to happen, even as time, space, energy and matter were emerging out of the ‘water’ of formlessness and void on the first day of creation.”
The Midrash you quoted, out of context reads like a Christological statement about Jesus, and in context is a forecast of the quality of life in the messianic era. And the era hasn’t commenced yet since our quality of life does not include peace or freedom from illness; from this we know the messiah hasn’t come. And since Jesus did come, we know one thing about him: he could not have been the messiah.
Do you see now, Gene, how important context is?
Gene, you’re mixing “rice with mango” (the two don’t go together). No. I did not “confirm” that x-trians believe in a single god, rather they THINK they believe in a single god. This is pure blasphemy and completely against Torah.
Also, the Zohar doesn’t mention that Hashem has 10 emanations, rather characteristics. Nothing to do with 10 gods in 1. The Torah CLEARLY states that “Hashem Elokeinu, Hashem ECHAD” ONE, not 3 in 1. This is pure heresy and DID NOT COME FROM SINAI, rather the Sitra Achra.
They even said to love ones enemies. How much more so to us!
How I wish more people spoke and thought like this while accepting our differences of belief.
Ken “the Aryan” Thomas likes to talk down to the Jews by talking to them in their simple-minded untermenschen language:
“Is not….?” And “how much more so…..”
Give it a rest, Aryan Ken, we know that you’re not one of us by your claims to be an Aryan, and most of all by your beliefs that are so foreign and antithetical to our tradition from Sinai.
Sorry for being a bit uninformed, but why exactly are people attacking Ken?
If messianic jews would agree with this author, why don’t they keep the Torah which their leaders (yeshu and paul) teach to do? Why is it that there are many believers in yeshu don’t keep Shabbat, kosher, family purity, etc.? Isn’t this hypocritical and an outright disrespect to their messiah?
most so called messianics are not really jews……in the last 20 years
messianic congregations are filled with non-jews playing masquarade.
The tallis wrappings are a sight to behold….many many and I will
say MANY again, Jews have left the messianic movement and have
come back to Judaism where all Jews belong!!!!!
“most so called messianics are not really jews……in the last 20 years
messianic congregations are filled with non-jews playing masquarade.”
True. I believe this is a very temporary development and they will all be gone once being Jewish is not longer “cool”.
“MANY again, Jews have left the messianic movement and have
come back to Judaism where all Jews belong!!!!!”
Yes, and many of them still believe in Yeshua as Messiah AND have returned to Judaism (where all Jews belong) and are members of traditional schuls.
Gene==
many of them still believe in Yeshua as Messiah AND have returned to Judaism (where all Jews belong) and are members of traditional schuls.
Great Gene. That is wonderful. Most Jews are learning to be more open and accepting. I’d like to think that the love and compassion of Bible-believers toward the nation and people of Israel helped make it so. This warms my heart.
“Why is it that there are many believers in yeshu don’t keep Shabbat, kosher, family purity, etc.? Isn’t this hypocritical and an outright disrespect to their messiah?”
Yes, it is. However, don’t we also have most of Reform and Conservative Jews, as well as those Jews who may not be frum but who attend Orthodox shuls (the majority of members really) whose faith is supposed to be based on Moshe but who do not exactly follow his words regarding Torah either (or reiterpet them in a non-traditional manner)? Is that not also hypocritical and outright disrespectful of Moshe? Such is a human nature, and it’s not limited to MJs. So, to sum this up: like all Jews, some MJs are traditionally observant and some are not.
es, it is. However, don’t we also have most of Reform and Conservative Jews, as well as those Jews who may not be frum but who attend Orthodox shuls (the majority of members really) whose faith is supposed to be based on Moshe but who do not exactly follow his words regarding Torah either (or reiterpet them in a non-traditional manner)? Is that not also hypocritical and outright disrespectful of Moshe? Such is a human nature, and it’s not limited to MJs. So, to sum this up: like all Jews, some MJs are traditionally observant and some are not.
You are right here, but the big difference is that those Jews even the ones
who do nothing, are now christians who believe in a man/god. that is
pagan!
Gene, the major difference I see between Mj’s and the other groups you mentioned is that the others don’t claim to be “complete jews”. Also, their leaders don’t say to follow Torah and they themselves don’t. Yeshu and Paul supposedly instructed their followers to keep the Torah and none do.
“Gene, the major difference I see between Mj’s and the other groups you mentioned is that the others don’t claim to be “complete jews”. ”
I agree with that, to call oneself a “complete[d] Jew” just because one believes Yeshua is Messiah is immature, stupid and offensive.
“Yeshu and Paul supposedly instructed their followers to keep the Torah and none do.”
Again, most Jews have failed to keep Torah that G-d Himself through Moshe has instructed us to keep. MJs are not an exception and they are NOT better at this than any other Jew. Look at Jewish history and look around today. Human failure to keep G-d’s commandments and teachings of our sages doesn’t take away from either Moshe, Yeshua or the sages.
I agree Gene, but at least Orthodox Jewry tries to keep mitzvot, unlike other Jewish groups.
Nosson
If messianic jews would agree with this author, why don’t they keep the Torah which their leaders (yeshu and paul) teach to do? Why is it that there are many believers in yeshu don’t keep Shabbat, kosher, family purity, etc.? Isn’t this hypocritical and an outright disrespect to their messiah?
Nosson, sadly so because somehow most jews caught up with messiyantics are jews who were ignorant of Torah; many messianics
claim that they only follow scripture and not the Rabbis, yet they
they wear kippahs, and wear tzitzit, light shabbat candles and so on
and so forth. messianics is a hybrid trying to fit a square into a round
hole; I can say this and I myself was involved and now realize how
screwed up my thinking was.
I only pray that the Jews involved in this farce, including my own family
members would come home; Klal Yisroel needs each and every Jew!
“I only pray that the Jews involved in this farce, including my own family
members would come home; Klal Yisroel needs each and every Jew!”
Certainly, how easy, howt tempting would it be for a Jew who once came to believe to turn his/her back on the Messiah – no more sharing in his scorn, no more sharing in his shame, no more accusations of betraying one’s own people, no more need to obey the call of Yeshua, no more being told to go away, what relief, what acceptance, what freedom!
Gene, the only call a Jew needs to Obey is Hashem…jesus is not the
god and is not someone a jew needs to pray to.
its not about being easy for a Jew, its about the TRUTH!!, which you
obviously have been very misled about.
“its not about being easy for a Jew, its about the TRUTH!!, which you
obviously have been very misled about”
The “truth” your speak of (in religion) is a matter of faith and not a scientific fact. If your truth was so apparent, you could convince anyone, but you can’t. You believe in Moshe (as do I), but what proof of “truths” do you have other than your faith? Very few. You have faith in Moshe and not Yeshua as Messiah, but I have faith in both because it is precisely through Yeshua that the G-d of Israel has become known around the world (even if some gentiles have distorted his teachings) and the whole history of this world has been altered. Turn your back on him, but in the end we will find out the “truth”. I am a Jew who believes in the G-d of Israel and His Messiah who is a Jew. If you or anyone else thinks that this makes me a pagan who worships foreign gods and idols, so be it.
Alternatively, if counter-Messianics really respected their rabbinic sages, they would heed their gracious words about the lovely nature of the gospels.
Joe good try hahahaha again more convoluted thinking but ya gotta love
it
Joseph, I don’t know of any authentic rabbinic sages who say that gospels are lovely words. Much less when it comes to the many manipulations of the translators.
What you know today as “the gospels” is NOT what was. It’s been severely manipulated. Why would you based your soul on such a lie? I seriously don’t understand that?
“What you know today as “the gospels” is NOT what was. It’s been severely manipulated. Why would you based your soul on such a lie? I seriously don’t understand that?”
Majority of theologians (among them Jews!) claim that many parts of Tanakh were not written during the times when people assume, were not written by the people they are traditionally attributed to, and that some of the most important books (like Torah itself) were not written by Moses at all (for example, they say, did Moses actually write that G-d buried him after he died?). There are whole books written about the supposed contradictions found in the Torah and Tanakh. Furthermore, many historians today claim that Israelites were never in the desert for 40 years (since they are no traces of them).
Those who think that the whole Bible is full of holes most likely wonder why YOU Nosson would base your whole faith on “lies”. But you would reject such outrageous claims as nonsense, right?
Nosson, you say:
“Joseph, I don’t know of any authentic rabbinic sages who say that gospels are lovely words. “
R. Jacob Emden says:
“The Nazarene [Jesus] brought about a double kindness in the world. On the one hand, he strengthened the Torah of Moses majestically, as mentioned earlier, and not one of our Sages spoke out more emphatically concerning the immutability of the Torah. And on the other hand, he did much good for the Gentiles (provided they do not turn about his intent as they please, as some foolish ones have done because they did not fully understand the intent of the authors of the Gospels”
Are you questioning whether R. Emden was an authentic rabbinic sage?
Joseph, yes I’m questioning him as a “sage”. Especially when he studied philosophy which is forbidden.
Gene, this “argument” is useless. If you discredit the Torah and Tanakh’s authenticity, then why call yourself a Jew? How do you know you’re Jewish and your records haven’t been manipulated. It’s simple faith Gene.
However, the HUGE difference between your argument and the NT is that the church itself admits to making such changes. In addition, in many cases it outright contradicts Tanakh. You can’t have a document that contradicts it very foundation, it’s absurd!!
True. I believe this is a very temporary development and they will all be gone once being Jewish is not longer “cool”.
“MANY again, Jews have left the messianic movement and have
come back to Judaism where all Jews belong!!!!!”
Yes, and many of them still believe in Yeshua as Messiah AND have returned to Judaism (where all Jews belong) and are members of traditional schuls.
Gene, please stop lying to yourself, I undestand that its difficult for you
to be able to admit you have been deceived, but the Jews that have
left this messiyantics do not follow jesus….thats a fantasy sorry
True. I believe this is a very temporary development and they will all be gone once being Jewish is not longer “cool”.
Gene, do you actually see and read what you post here?????????????????
Being a Jew is cool???? I am speechless ………..and shocked that you
claim to be a Jew and can say this in light of how difficult being a Jew
has been for centuries. Where is being a Jew “cool”? in messianic
circles? I am astonished at the level you have sunk
“Gene, do you actually see and read what you post here?????????????????
Being a Jew is cool????”
Calm down, bubby, leave out the dramatics. Do you get “sarcasm”?
Gene I see so now Jews are not only irrational according to your
co religionist christian as marylou stated, but dramatic …
you dojn’t even recognize the self hatred that you mask as a “joke”
Bubby, you don’t represent “Jews”. You represent a former “messiantyc” who is today full of disdain for the movement [however "christian" it is] that most likely introduced your formerly unbelieving and assimilated self to 1] faith in G-d and 2] Judaism itself.
What do you know, Gene? bubby as a Jewish ex-member of the cult you’re now involved with and I as an individual who never even met a cultist are unified in our disdain for your cult. The Catholic church and many mainline Protestant sects agree with bubby and I that the cult of “messianism” is deeply disrespectful as an evangelical method and deeply harmful to cordial ecumenical relations. Note that neither bubby nor I seek to challenge the beliefs espoused by honest Christians at their church Web sites. It is only these dishonest missionary organizations, the “messianics”, that are so troubling.
Your observation that Jews like bubby who are fortunate enough, strong enough, to begin to critically evaluate the claims they were spoon fed by the missionaries who surrounded them in times of horrible trouble with needed but unreal “love”, typically, perhaps uniformly, emerge committed to Judaism. Sadly, most who fall prey to your cult cannot overcome the emotional entrapment that has thus far kept you and Joseph from unabashedly wrestling with the profound irreconcileability of the Hebrew scriptures and Christian beliefs about Jesus. But that doesn’t mean credit is due your cult for bringing Jews eventually to Judaism. Your cult, rather, was an obstacle that for too long restrained a Jew from acheiving their self-actualization as a Jew. There is nothing nice or redeeming about being part of a movement to decieve and trick other into becoming Christian.
“Your cult, rather, was an obstacle that for too long restrained a Jew from acheiving their self-actualization as a Jew. ”
But for you, Anonymous, this “cult” as you call it (who’s the cult leader?) was the very springboard that whetted your taste for Jewish things and gave birth to your dream of one day becoming a Jew. You owe much to it, for without it you would forever remain just a Christian hanging around Jews.
Gene,
You’ve borrowed Joseph’s antic: ignore the inconvenient message and instead focus on attacking the messenger personally.
It hasn’t worked for Joseph, but then again, you may not have anything better to bring?
“Where is being a Jew “cool”? ”
Since the Beastie Boys!
Bubby, oodles of Gentiles think being Jewish is cool. And I would think that most Jews (in the West) do indeed think it is the bees knees to be Jewish.
Int’l UN Human Rights group endorses the right to criticize other religious beleifs as a basic human right! This comes as a real setback to both Moslem and Jewish extremists who want to censor the religious evangelistic speech of Christians and other faiths.
Read the details of this decision.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-12818480
http://religionclause.blogspot.com/
According to BBC News yesterday, the high court rejected that conclusion, writing in part:
The applicant’s religious views and the Biblical scripture which underpins those views no doubt cause offence, even serious offence, to those of a certain sexual orientation. Likewise, the practice of homosexuality may have a similar effect on those of a particular religious faith. But Article 10 (of the European Convention on Human Rights) protects expressive rights which offend, shock or disturb.
Moreover, Article 10 protects not only the content and substance of information but also the means of dissemination since any restriction on the means necessarily interferes with the right to receive and impart information.
=========
In the past extremists Yad LaChem types tried to censor our freedom of speech by illegal violence and by misuse of legal means. They tried to get the local gov’ts to outlaw convesionary speech because it included condemnation of their wrong beliefs. Part of the basic human right of religoius assembly is the right of exclusion and the right of criticism.
We Christians both Jewish and Gentile welcome debate and criticism, but the extremists in Al Qaida and Chabad etc. can’t take criticism. That proves they are wrong! They are afraid of discussion and of honest debate. Hooray for the high court in the UK and for the agency of the UN that got this right!
Ken, Al Qaeda is a terror group, Chabad is a religious movement , you’re talking about chalk and cheese, no comparison really.
Chabad is no Yad? My bad! So sad.
Yet we’re glad.
Interestng thought, Joe. Yad and similar would be just as violent as some Islamic gov’ts are not only against Christians but against other Israelis from reform or secular or buddhist or hindu jewish groups IF they ever took control of Israel. They won’t.
The majority of Israelis know that and are opposed to Yad’s anti-convesionary speech agenda.
Yad L’Achim is run by Chabad hasidim, in the way that Al Qaeda is run by Sunnis. Neither are to be confused with the religious beliefs of their leaders, I don’t think. And, to be fair to them, YLA haven’t murdered anyone or called for anyone’s murder, though they do incite harm and discrimination against religious minorities.
Ken, don’t kid youself…the majority of Israelis are Jews and support groups who get rid of missionaries…if the majority of Israelis didn’t want them
around, they wouldn’t be there…get real…have you ever met an israeli?
it doesn’t matter if they are religious or not; by the way,, have you ever
met a Jew?
Bubba, let me correct your mistake…again!
…the majority of Israelis are Jews and DON’T support groups who get rid of missionaries. That is why the majority of Israelis reject Yad LaChem and other extremists politicians in elections. If they didn’t reject the anti-free speech extremists, then they’d have banned us from coming to Israel long ago. We are here and you are powerless to censor us!
If the majority of Israelis didn’t want Christians to enjoy free of speech all
around Israel, they wouldn’t be there. But we are, and their is nothing you can do about it.
Washington – A majority of both Orthodox and secular Jewish Israelis are fed up with the ultra-Orthodox (haredi) parties, the Jerusalem Post reported Friday, citing a recent poll.
“The public no longer tolerates selling Israel’s future to haredi parties,” said Rabbi Uri Regev, director of Hiddush, the religious rights NGO that conducted the poll.
95% of secular Jews and a 62% of modern Orthodox Jews both subscribed to a generally negative view of the haredi community. “[T]he haredi parties [have] managed to make themselves an anathema among the general public that supports the rule of law and democracy,” said Regev.
The poll also showed a more pointed criticism of haredi political participation. 58% of Jewish Israelis support the establishment of a national unity coalition that would exclude the haredi Shas and United Torah Judaism parties but instead include the main opposition Kadima party.
– The Jerusalem Post
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The problem I see is that the Jesus that he talks about is not the one you believe in.
How do you mean?
Jesus was not god.
Your own rebbe thinks that Moses was god:
http://roshpinaproject.com/2010/04/26/moshe-shulman-the-ropshitzer-rebbe/
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