UBMS ‘rabbis’ Brian, Andrew & Julian, now Boaz, Binyamin & Yehoshua
So what kind of state of affairs is it when you have Gentile Christians converting themselves to something they claim is Judaism, or Messianic Judaism, or claiming Jewishness by virtue of some distant relative and then offering to convert other Gentiles, to what they claim is Judaism!?
The Union of British Messianic Synagogues, consisting of three groups in England, have concluded that they should offer conversions to ‘Judaism’ to all their Gentile members, which, according to those close to the group, is pretty much everyone. They falsely claim to offer conversion to Judaism here. Another false claim made is “After circumcision for males, and immersion for both men and women, you will join the Jewish community.” The last thing Gentiles converted by Gentiles to something they claim is ‘Judaism’ will find is acceptance by the Jewish community.
One group claims to be “Serving the Jewish Community throughout East Anglia” Really, is that so, but do they really mean all these Gentiles they have converted to their own construct which they chose to call Judaism?
Another group claims to be “The Midlands’ only Messianic Synagogue” in a seeming attempt to claim superiority over a Messianic Jewish Fellowship in the Midlands that has actual Messianic Jews rather than pretend Jews converted by pretend rabbis.
I’ve nothing against Messianic Jewish Rabbis, Messianic Jewish Torah services or Messianic Synagogues as authentic Jewish expressions of faith in Moshiach Yeshua. I don’t even mind Gentiles who love the Messianic Jewish culture so much that they start to identify as ‘Messianic Gentiles, but… I really have to say that I have lots of sympathy for the anti-missionary accusation which used to sound so ridiculous when they claimed Gentiles dressed up as Jews to trick real Jews into belief in Jesus.
The UBMS may still be reeling from the scandal that ended in the group’s current leaders ousting its founder Ruth Fleischer. The UBMS had employed a known convicted paedophile, despite this they appointed him as a rabbi, but continued problems caused a rift. Full details can be read in this post here and UBMS response here.
UPDATE
The UBMS have now changed their website to read ‘Conversion to Messianic Judaism’ rather than to Judaism, but still claim that their converts will be part of the Jewish community.
The testimony section still states:
“as a result of research by the Rabbis in our movement, it became clear that the way ahead for those of us who were not born Jewish was conversion.”
Well for once I have to say I’m on your side on this one. It started with Brit AM if they’re still around and was advanced by Eddie Chumney which became a two house theology that reunited the stick of Judah and Ephriam making all gentiles Jews by virtue of the lost tribes of Israel….. I have seen it all Gev…..”my great-great grandmother had a cousin who lived next door to a Jewish boy who might have dated her niece who got pregnant and gave birth to a Jewish girl who later married my cousins brother-in-law next door to a Synagogue therefore I must be Jewish….” They have also established a new type of conversion that converts gentiles to “Messianic Jews”. Not Jews mind you but “Messianic Jews” which they admit are not recognized by the State of Israel. I feel sorry for the “gentiles” who really desire deeply in their heart to be a part of the Nation of Israel and get lured into this deception. I don’t have anything against Christians who want to support Israel and be our neighbors without motives to convert us. It’s the Messianics that we don’t like.
Leah I agree as well, It took a hybrid, messianic judaism, and evolved into
something more bizzare. It goes to show you that humans can justify any
craziness. The so called Jews that they convert into gentiles are not just
not recognized in Israel, they are not recognized as Jews anywhere except in their own little parallel universe. I have seen children destroyed because of
being brought up in this bubble that is not even in touch with reality. gentile children who are not accepted by either jews for gentiles because of their
nutty parents.
When I see gentile children having a Bar Mitzvah by a Jewish messianic leader I’m troubled. How does this child see himself?
The honest thing do do is tell people they are Christian Jews or Jewish Christians and let the other Christians remain as they are.
Please remember that this is a tiny organisation. I\’d reckon each congregation has maybe 10-20 people in attendance. I\’m not 100% certain, but I think Julian Scott and Andrew Sheldrake are actually Jewish. I\’m pretty sure that Brian Sabey isn\’t.
As an observer, I find it very interesting to note that there is a history of disasters associated with this group and its predecessors:
* Chuck Snow loses his faith in Yeshua and returns to traditional Judaism
* Phil Sharpe loses his mind and concludes he\’s an ancient king of Israel, setting up house with several mistresses
* Ron Chalmers loses his innocence and is revealed to be a convicted child molester who served three years in jail
* Ruth Fleischer loses her credibility as she supported Chalmers
* Ruth Fleischer loses her doctorate which it turns out she never had
I\’ve often wondered why so much has gone wrong for them. Was it just the people? I do think their approach of separating themselves from the main community of Jewish believers in the UK (the BMJA, with several hundred members) has been a significant contributing factor.
It\’s actually very sad and does huge damage to the credibility of Jewish faith in Yeshua. Is it any wonder that many Jewish believers seem to think that messianic judaism is an experiment that failed catastrophically, and are staying in churches.
Thanks zachor, I’ve just realized that the UBMS is a re-branded and renamed version of the UBMJC, dropping ‘Jewish’ and ‘congregation’ and adding ‘synagogue’. Presumably this is in order to distance themselves from the scandal that embroiled them, which is understandable.
I also cannot find Ruth Fleischer’s Messianic synagogue, Bnai Maccabim online anymore. You know anything about this zachor?
Gev, I don’t know the reasons for the name change, but it’s worth noting that it’s only recent, whereas the scandal was over a year ago. I also can’t find any working websites for Ruth Fleischer, her congregation, or the group that she and Ron Chalmers founded at the time of the split. I don’t know if anything’s happened but her congregation was again very small (perhaps a dozen people) so maybe it’s dwindled away to nothing. Chalmers’ congregation does have an operational website at http://www.beitrehovot.co.uk.
I see that Ron Chalmers aka Asher Cramer has been expunged from the Beit Rehovot web site, but they have links to their Movement for Covenant Judaism (‘Messianic’ and ‘Jewish’ don’t make an appearance), all their linked groups are in Africa.
Here is Ron Chalmers aka Asher Kramer talking about his breakaway group the Movement for Covenant Judaism: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Vrwoa4_GLQ
Ruth Fleisher is the chair of this Movement for Covenant Judaism http://uk.linkedin.com/pub/dr-ruth-fleischer/4/1b3/525
here we are zachor found Ruth Fleischer’s group here http://bnaimaccabim.com/Bnaimaccabim.com/Welcome.html it is billed as a Movement for Covenant Judaism synagogue.
Gev, Well done for finding that website. After the scandal Fleischer and Chalmers started the “Movement for Covenant Messianic Judaism”. They’ve obviously dropped the “Messianic” from their name. I’m sure that Chalmers is still leading Beit Rehovot. I’d love to know how many people attend their congregations.
Its simple there is no accountability. what you state above is just the tip
of the iceberg.
I feel sorry for the situation that has arisen through the UBMS and it’s leaders. Although this is a contentious issue we must all be very carefull of being accussed of “lashon harah”, which is considered equal to murder of the person’s soul/character..
Very few people actually know the real circumstances of how the UBMS came about and what was driving it. We shouid feel sorry for Andrew and the others that they have lost touch with the real world and Judaism.
Both my wife and I were founder members of, what was, Beit Shalom Norwich and were very hurt when things started to go wrong. This included a Jewish couple, the husband of which was one of the leaders, losing their faith in Yeshua, getting caught by the Chabad and making Aliah.
I think this problem needs to be left to HaShem to deal with as He knows best how to deal with the heart, and we should pray for healing.
Thanks Yezekel22, this is factual reporting not lashon harah.
As an insider can you please confirm or not, whether the three leaders were born Jewish?
I don’t know about the other two leaders, but both Brian and Fiona Sabey were never Jewish (I knew them some years ago when briefly involved in Messianic Judaism). For that matter, neither it would seem was Ruth Fleischer whose father was Jewish but whose mother apparently was not, at least according to what I have read about her background online, so halachically that would mean that she is also a gentile.
Gila is right Ruth is not a Jew and neither are the others
To the best of my knowledge non of them are Jewish or their wifes. Most come from the church. There were six of us who got together about 15 or more years ago in Norwich. Non of us knew each other ans non of us new anyone involved in the messianic movement. The original joining together was By Yad HaShem. It was only after we were meeting for a while that Ruth’s Yeshua Ministries held their first conference at the University of East Anglia that we heard about messianic Judaism. It was only after this that we had connection with the Ruth movement and first met Messianic Rabbies.
So our personal history of Andrew and co go back a long way and of course we know the history of how things developed to where they are now.
My wife and I actually go to the orthodox schul where we live and we are part of that community. We have been going for over six years for Shabbat and the Yom Tovs. We have been taught by Jews within the Jewish congregation in all aspects. Andrew and co have not and have caused much problems here and my wife and I have had to write to the local radio station on one occasion because of Andrew maintaining that he was jewish. This was to protect out many friends at the schul and for the sake of integrity as andrew was acting as if he was speaking for the whole of the jewish community even though he is not jewish.
We have a similar situation here. It’s late or I’d tell about it. Instead I say good Shabbos
Yezekel22, to make things crystal clear, are you saying that the three leaders (Julian Scott, Andrew Sheldrake, Brian Sabey) and their wives are all gentiles by birth?
As someone who was briefly involved with Messianic Judaism which actually helped me on my journey into real Judaism which was where Hashem directly led me, while I am sorry that you have obviously been hurt by events close to home, let me assure you that anyone who returns to Judaism is not “caught” by Chabad or by anyone else for that matter, only by Hashem. I agree we need to leave things to Hashem to deal with. As a now orthodox Jew, doing Hashem’s will and having a relationship with Him – directly as a Jew – is the focus of my life.
If you are Jewish, then I dare to hope – in His timing – if you really want to know the truth and to have the relationship with G-d that He actually intended you to have with Him as a Jew, that Hashem also shows you the truth and leads you home to real Judaism, which is ultimately far more fulfilling for a Jewish soul than the relatively shallow spirituality of Christianity/Messianic Judaism which does actually belong to the world of tumah. We need to focus on Hashem, always…..
As someone who was briefly involved with Messianic Judaism which actually helped me on my journey into real Judaism which was where Hashem directly led me, while I am sorry that you have obviously been hurt by events close to home, let me assure you that anyone who returns to Judaism is not “caught” by Chabad or by anyone else for that matter, only by Hashem.
Gila I totally agree! The idea that Chabad “catches” people is not only ridiculous, but paranoid. Its obvious anyone who makes these comments has never been to Chabad and is not a Jew.
“leads you home to real Judaism..”
What “real” Judaism you have in mind gila?
Orthodox, who elevate the words of some Rabbis over the written word of God?
Reform, who ordains gay rabbis and perform same sex marriages?
Conservative, who are so afraid that they forever sitting on the fence?
Reconstructionist, who took God completely out of the picture?
Which “real” Judaism you have in mind gila?
Omein Gila! Welcome home to Hashem and His Torah!
What is real Judaism? Whether one follows Judaism, christianity, messianic Judaism, Islam etc, many fall short of HaShem’s torah as written down in the TaNaCh. All religions are filled up with mans laws and not HaShem’s mitzvote, chukim, mispachim etc. And, yes, my wife nad I go to an orthodox schul and have been for over six years.
when I said “one leader got caught by the Chabad” it was said because of their vigorous missionary work which they carry out. In many ways they are no different to all missionary workers despite what terminology they use to up-hold their actions. I have a friend who studied under Rav Schneerson for over 13 years so I do have some knowledge of how things work.
Sorry about some of the spelling, my PC does not seem to allow me to correct them
Gut Shobbers
Yezekel, your use of the term “lashon hurah”, does not even apply here.
According to Torah, its a Jew’s obligation to warn other Jews about
spiritual darkness and danger.
Love you double standard bubby… Any one who think Chabad is engaged in lashon harah is not a Jew…
Yezekel22,
Without wishing to deny the considerable hurt that many must feel, it must be noted that the approach of the UBMJC was problematic, and the UBMS seems to be continuing along the same lines. From the start, the UBMJC set themselves up as the “remnant”, the only true branch of messianic judaism in the UK. They had an isolationist mentality and spoke ill of the much larger BMJA. They claimed to be a key player but in reality they were just a tiny fringe group. This required them to be secretive and conceal their actual size. (Again, these are all facts).
And I do wonder what proportion of both the leaders and members were/are Jewish by any recognised halacha.
One of the main ways that HaShem deals with us is through the community of believers, and the leaders and members of the UBMJC didn’t want anything to do with those outside their tiny group, which someone once described as being “cult-like”. I would suggest that openness, transparency, and genuine accountability will both help the healing process and prevent any future problems.
Hello, they are sourcing their own kosher meat from a farm and members can place an order with their rabbi, do I smell a business opportunity! http://www.ubmsonline.org/home/congregations/adat-yeshua/kosher-supplies/
The good option really now is NOT to get out of your flock. Stay where you are since Yeshua is coming soon, nevertheless. I hope He comes within 20 years. 50 years are so discouraging. I hope He hastens.
Messianic Jews should focus more on righteous living and never mind the distractions from the gentiles, gerim or from relatives. Gentiles should respect the Jews who would like to worship their Messiah in their own Jewish way. Gentile converts to Judaism should focus more to Judaism instead of bashing the Jews who became believers. Gentiles should stay out of MJ “synagogues”. Gentiles mingling with Messianic Jews is not already apt in the modern context of Christianity. Respect the boundaries. Jews should preserve their Jewishness. Marry within the fold. Focus more to Yeshua than being “once-a-Jew-now-MJ” record and brag about it every time. Avoid too much bickering with one another. Kepha fell when he saw the wave coming. Focus on Yeshua. There are many things to consider especially repentance, righteous living and peaceful coexistence. Hardships are nothing compared to how great GOD is. Christians have great hymns. Sing and pray when you are alone. Thinking about Yeshua and praying everyday and thinking about GOD every now and then is really fascinating and satisfying.
Interesting how the only “authentic” Jews appear to be those who are considered Jewish according to halacha – ie either born that way or reborn as an orthodox convert. Why is “Jewishness” so important if you are all one in Christ? Or is something more fundamental spiritually at work here? If all the Jews had converted to Christianity in the past and intermarried with gentiles, there would be no Jews left today to get so excited about! Or perhaps, were the Jews right all along to reject jc and thus keep their direct Jewish relationship with the One true G-d intact…..?
Gila you just answered your own question. The Jews were right all along.
I know, I was simply posing the question for anyone who had not yet realised that….
gila, if a congregation describes themselves as being “Messianic Jewish”, then it implies that the majority of members are Jewish (by an accepted definition of the term, which I realise is a can of worms in itself). If this isn’t the case, then it’s misleading, which is wrong. That’s why it matters.
All the messianic congregations define themselves as messianic jewish
or at least the majority of them do. how many are really even Jews?
how many of the leaders and their wives Jews?
The number of “real” Jews in messianic congregations is generally 2 – 6, possibly more depending on how many children the Jewish members have. It’s a very small minority and the congregation is led by gentiles with the help of a Jewish minister. These Messianic leaders are not Rabbis nor have they ever attended divinity school. That’s not to say it doesn’t happen but so far I haven’t seen it.
Why the word “converted”? In the first century, there were no such phenomenon. Those Jews who believed that Yeshua was the Messiah were simply Jews and Jewish. They don’t need to convert. It was the rabbis who set up the demarcation line. Let Isaiah 53:2 always be true: “For he shot up right forth as a sapling, and as a root out of a dry ground; he had no form nor comeliness, that we should look upon him, nor beauty that we should delight in him.”
For the Messiah, the Son of GOD, shot up right forth as a sapling, and as a root out of dry ground (this refers to His humanity, the Messiah would be born out of the then seemingly extinct line of David; this is the Shoot being spoken of in Jeremiah 23:5 and Zechariah 3:8, which always refers to no other than but the Messiah); He had no form nor comeliness (as that of the expected Messiah, of what we expect for a King, the Son of David), that we should look upon (regard) Him, nor beauty (of His supposed Divinity — the Son of Man as prophesied in Daniel 7:13) that we should delight in Him (worship, honor Him as befits His status). This verse should not refer to Israel as a nation and you guys know why (Nobel Prize, Hollywood stars, why some gentiles wanted to be Jews, et cetera).
He came at the time before the destruction of the Second Temple, fulfilling the prophecy in Haggai 2:9: “‘The glory of this latter house shall be greater than that of the former, saith the LORD of hosts; and in this place will I give peace, saith the LORD of hosts.’”
In what could that prophecy makes sense when the Holy of Holies was empty and completely dark and the Shekinah (a light created to be an intermediary between God and the world as defined by Rambam) was also missing in the Second Temple? How would the Lord provide peace when most of the Second Temple’s existence was rife with death and wars? What could that peace be? Could it be the peace which changed the lives of many, always being spoken of “jc” and His disciples? If this is not “jc”, then who is? I will tear off Haggai then from the Bible!
Have you ever asked this question: Why when the Greeks converted, why they remained Greek? The word “convert” is rightly applicable for those who were not Jewish during the first century CE and should NOT be used for the Jews, in that era’s context. Are you confused?
Further answer:
gila8:” If all the Jews had converted to Christianity in the past and intermarried with gentiles, there would be no Jews left today to get so excited about!”
Analyse your word: “AND INTERMARRIED”. Have you ever asked this question: WHAT IF THEY WOULD NOT INTERMARRY? You guys equate conversion with intermarriage. They are not linear. Why? Are you a convert and have intermarried yourself to a Jew, the reason why you confuse the two words together?
Humans are not linear in their interactions with their society. We are complex!
Right, gila…God is only the God of the Jews, how could we make such mistake….If you werem’t a converted goy I would call you a racist…..
La giyoreta…bebe.
“The stranger that sojourneth with you shall be unto you as the home-born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.” Veyiqra 19:34 JPS 1917
gila8: “Or perhaps, were the Jews right all along to reject jc and thus keep their direct Jewish relationship with the One true G-d intact…..?”
— Sorry, but the reality is that GOD had allowed the Temple to be destroyed in 70 CE. For me, that is not a “direct Jewish relationship with the One true G-d INTACT”. The modern or advance form of idolatry, the Jews have already perfected even before 70 CE. Rabbis began to shape GOD out of their many philosophies of what He should be, etc. Example: the LORD could not become a man, or that He would not appear to be a man (though He appeared as a bush to Moses). That is idolatry; a non-material shaping of GOD, determining what GOD should be like. Oblivious to the fact that GOD is absolutely omnipotent. The reason: to get rid of the idea of the Son of GOD (Proverbs 30:4, Psalms 2) and of the Son of Man (Daniel 7:13) confirmed many times as fulfilled by the Gospel.
— Banishment is always caused by idolatry and having no chesed with one another (i.e., hatred without cause, because the Torah is all about how to attain Chesed for GOD is Chesed [I Yoch. 4:8, sephira]). GOD showed the ultimate Chesed (as prophesied in Isaiah 53) in their midst 40 years prior. GOD allowed banishment for almost 1,900 years. GOD IS urging the Jews to worship Him in spirit and in TRUTH (as spoken of Yeshua HM). Follow the Torah not because you just want to simply identify with your relatives and the Jews and that you are indeed a true-olive-green (true blue) Jew, but follow it because you love GOD first and foremost, beyond and above those pretensions. If it is not meant that way (for the sole love of GOD), it is just sheer idolatry.
— Assuming “HaMoshiach” to be purely human is another potential idolatry. You could not avoid the impulse. So GOD deemed it necessary to take the role Himself to avoid the jeopardy. Take it or leave it. These are the only options.
“Do homage in purity, lest He be angry, and ye perish in the way, when suddenly His wrath is kindled.” Psalms 2:12 JPS 1917
That was not followed,we worship GOD out of pretensions (putting extreme emphasis on Judaism instead of its GOD) and many Jews have become atheists and espoused many worldly predilections (burying themselves in the gentile world and desires as if the LORD does not exist and will not fulfill His promises of putting them back to the fatherland, forgetting GOD, etc.), the Holocaust was allowed. Take it or leave it. It really happened. Who could have allowed it ultimately? Satan or the Lord (I Chronicles 21:1 or 2 Samuel 24:1)? Well, well, I am not saying that GOD is the ultimate antisemite. His thoughts are not ours neither are His ways (Isaiah 55:8).
Think again…
Dan “the ad hominem man” Benzvi,
Wow you do good work, can I appplaud you….really can I??? First earlier on it is your classic redirect of criticizing the legitimate streams of normative Judaism because they do not line up with your narrow ‘evangelical” dogma. Smooth ploy Dan, if you can’t dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with………
Then the appeal to emotion with the always charged canard of “…G-d is only the G-d of the Jews..”
Well,actually, he must be Dan; as Jews we acknowledge him…singular, solo.
What we don’t acknowledge, or worship or pay homage to is the quartet of gods that Christians have created. Dad, Son, Ghost and the the boogey man. Ignoring anything about that whole Son bit…..I am not suggesting that Christians actually worship boogey-man/anti-god….but nowhere in Judaism is the idea of the holy one creating a being that could actually challenge him ever even theorized. No, G-d cannot create a rock that he can’t lift, nor can he create a being (angel, devil, whatever) that can actually challenge his authority. False religions do a good job of that all by themselves.
Keep up the effort though Dan, straw men everywhere cringe at the sound of your name!!!
This whole thing saddens me deeply. For many years the phrase, “ours is the ministry of reconciliation” has been a guiding thing for me. I am prepared to do almost anything for others to feel welcomed and valued. I love my non-Jewish friends, and sometimes I even love my Jewish family!
This, however, breaks my heart. As a Jewish bloke who tries (and fails) to follow Yeshua, the usual label for me is “Messianic Jew”, which is fine – I’ve been called much worse.
I have no objection to a non-Jewish person converting to Judaism. I have no objections to a non-Jewish person who follows Yeshua to convert to Judaism. What does give me great cause for much concern is when a non-Jewish person sets him / her self up as a Rabbinic Authority which is able to perform conversions. It raises so many questions, such as:
Who gave these “Rabbonim” Smicha? By whose authority do they perform these “conversions”? Who in the wider Jewish Community accepts these “conversions” as valid? Who says their “meat” is “kosher”?
The answer to all of these (and many more) questions is:
They themselves decided.
We read about people like in the book called Revelation. They say they are Jewish, but aren’t.
My natural inclination is to try to reach out to everyone. This cannot happen with these people, and that is very sad.
I think this guys had nothing to do but a mess. I guess they were idles in their ‘MJ shul’ looking for something funny to do in spite we got a lot of work that Yeshua already gave us.
We should keep working in:
- Helping the needing, Jewish or Gentiles in any place. If we do well this one, it will be easier to:
- Spread the Word among Jews and Gentiles. In our own way, like was faced in the First century (Jews teaching Gentiles)
Avoid idleness in our Shuls. Learning, doing, teaching.
Funnily enough, we’ve just employed this man at our Messianic synagogue:
Everyone says he’s dodgy, but he’s saying it’s an FBI conspiracy against him, and I believe him.
Who wouldn’t?
I wonder if they offer a first class children’s facility with a convicted pedophile in charge?
http://roshpinaproject.com/2011/03/22/paedophile-student-minister-reinvents-himself-as-messianic-rabbi/
This lot are so crazy nothing would surprise me any longer. As a Messianic Jew, that is I have Jewish parents, they make me sick!
What is this, a fancy dress party? Crazy fools!
If you’re a man wearing a ladies dress, it doesn’t make you a women! If you’re a Gentile wearing a Kippah, it doesn’t make you Jewish! Calling yourself Messianic, doesn’t make you Messianic. If you want to be Messianic, follow Messiah Yeshua.
We’ve got U.K. beat! We’ve had similar groups of Gentiles converting other Gentiles to “Messianic Conservative Judaism” and “Messianic Orthodox Judaism” (no kidding) this side of the pond (U.S.) for many years now.
Mazal tov Gene!
Gila8, great to see you! You are right on about your comment. Some examples of this are the “messianic rabbi”(he’s actually a Jewish minister who never went to college. He was unofficially ordained by the minister of his church so he’s not really a minister). He grew up Jewish, married a woman who grew up in an Orthodox home. They were rebellious hippies who were taken in by Christians and they converted. Then they had three children, two girls and a boy. One daughter my married a Christian and never had children, the other daughter married a Christian and had sons who are being raised Christian and will likely grow up and marry Christian girls, the son married a Christian woman and had a son and daughter. As you see, the Jewish lineage stops with his children. This is what happened in my family. They converted in Germany during the Reformation and from there everyone was Christian and never knew about our heritage until I started some deep ancestry research and returned.
Ignore Dan. He’s sour because he’s not accepted into the Jewish community due to his conversion to Christianity so he begrudges those of us who are. However, I will say it’s likely he’s not a real “believer” either because he’s so nasty and does not “bear the fruits” Christians claim they have.
Leah unfortunately, the messianic movement keeps changing the goal posts;
30 years ago it was for Jews and slowly it evolved into Jews and their non-jewish spouses and it was marketed as the answer for intermarried couples. Then it became inclusive of gentiles who wanted to learn about their “jewish roots”;
always evolving and changing to fit the current status quo. Its also a pretty lucrative business for some. The worst part is that there are lots of mixed up
kids being raised in some sort of parallel universe and will not be accepted by either jews for christians. they are neither “fish nor fowl”. The Jewish Community loses Jews every generation and sad to say but mj has really accelerated the process.
Right you are Bubby! These gentile kids are given a Bar Mitzvah without having a Jewish name. How are they called to the Bima? Don’t know but they think it’s all legit. Mind you, I think it’s great they’re learning Hebrew but the lines are smudged. It’s kind of odd the way the Jewish minister deals with it because he wears a “keep out” sign around his neck less a gentile should try to intrude upon his Jewish identity and usurp his standing as the “authentic Jew”. He forbids the practice of Judaism but teaches a finely crafted version of Christianity with Jewish fringes.
buby,
How far are the goal posts between orthodox and reconstructionist Jews?…Wash you own dirty laundry first…..
leah8, by chance, you know BARBARA RICHMOND? She is said to be Leah Rafaeli now.
Referring to goyisheyehudim’s comment several comments back, I am afraid you really don’t make a great deal of sense in what you say.
To all those who are in any confusion as to what I mean by the term real Judaism – this is simply what our Jewish ancestors practised for many many centuries before the human invention of reform, conservative, reconstructionist varieties et al – what can also be called orthodox Judaism. Real Judaism is ALL about our relationship as Jews with our one infinite omnipotent Creator. The arguments and intricacies of the Talmud form part of a long chain of Jewish tradition and are simply about interpreting the depths of what EXACTLY the Torah means (eg we are told about G-d’s commandments to “bind them as a sign upon your arm and let them be ornaments between your eyes” [Deuteronomy 6 v 8]: what exactly is meant by that verse? – we need the Oral Torah to tell us that this refers to tefillin, how to make them, wear them etc.) so that we can fulfill G-d’s will as fully as we are able, with love, respect and joy. But there is no dispute about the actual main requirements of G-d’s laws that He gave to the Jewish people over three thousand years ago ie keeping Shabbat, Pesach, Succot, etc. The Oral Torah is not “an invention of the rabbis”, but was handed down, debated, clarified and also adapted where necessary to meet changing times, cultures and technologies. The Jewish leaders ie the sages were given explicit permission in the written Torah to do that by Hashem. There is also the concept of making a fence around the Torah. Imagine you are told you can go right up to a precipice. The danger is you could easily fall off if you did so. So a fence a little way forward of it will protect you from ever doing so. That is the concept. Found an interesting article online http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/759699/jewish/How-Can-the-Rabbis-Add-to-Torah.htm
if anyone’s interested.
But believing in or worshipping any created being as any kind of intermediary between humanity and G-d is idol worship for a Jew. That is why “Messianic Judaism” will never be accepted by the Jewish majority. It’s still Christianity in terms of theology and worship, however much it may be dressed up with Jewish practices (which, like the wearing of a kippah for instance, are usually from the Oral Torah which is otherwise denigrated as “man made” when it suits the theology), calling its leaders Messianic rabbis, having a non-conversion to becoming a “Jew” etc. However, for those of us like myself who started off as a Christian of Jewish descent, culminating in a full halachic conversion to orthodox Judaism, Messianic Judaism can provide a helpful stepping stone on one’s journey and for that I am grateful.
Excellent Gila! I couldn’t have said it better myself! As you know I have a similar story or practically nearly almost exactly the same, lol.
gila,
I wonder what were your relationships with the God of Israel before you were converted….Can you enlighten us please? Or did you not have any?…..
I can only briefly reply as my husband and I are packing to go away to chutz laaretz for a couple of weeks.
For years I had put G-d at the centre of my life and had become a Christian as I had no idea at that time that jc wasn’t necessary to have a relationship with G-d. The most important thing to me was to do His will and I earnestly sought it. My journey into Judaism came about with a great deal of help from Him and I had asked Him for the relationship He truly wanted with me. Many amazing things followed, with several trips to Israel before moving here for good some years ago. As a Jew I am far more whole and integrated as a human being, I have made aliyah and feel very blessed indeed.
Anyone interested, have a look at a very informative article about the Oral Law: http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/624196/jewish/Is-It-Really-the-Torah-Or-Is-It-Just-the-Rabbis.htm
Count the number of instances where you credit GOD more than when you credit the religious (supposed) superiority of the rabbis and their traditions/teachings? They are your heroes. They are the best. Theirs are the only truth. You keep on bragging about your subtle god — Judaism. Your focus is more on the supposed superiority of Judaism. Which is more idolatrous? Believing in the Son of Man (Proverbs 30:4, Daniel 7:13, John 3:16) or believing or putting your faith in the children of men as if they hold the Truth and the Life? You choose…
“But believing in or worshipping any created being as any kind of intermediary between humanity and G-d is idol worship for a Jew.”
The terrible thing is that there is no more idolatrous than the idea that GOD could and would not become a man (given the overwhelming examples from the Torah and the rest of the TNK); thereby putting Him in a philosophical cage, shaping Him non-materially. Ever heard of bonsai (dwarfed trees), cubed melons or the square bamboos from Japan? That’s how your god came to be. With all due respect, please don’t call that kind of god, HaShem.
I am opted to believe that Yeshua is GOD since the idea of many-in-one is obviously natural. The use of “echad” actually concurs with this notion (of many-in-one). All baryons are made up of three quarks, there are no exemptions. 99.9% of atoms are always made up of three sub-atomic particles: electron, proton and neutron. White light is made up of at least three primary colours of light: RED, BLUE and GREEN. Electromagnetic wave (such as light) IS one great example of many-in-one (electric field, magnetic field and the wave). Physicists believe that there is only one grand force — though presently, the Universe is governed by at least three grand forces: gravitational, strong and the electroweak (electromagnetism and weak force combined) forces. The goal of the physicists is to find a theory that would unite all these forces into one. This idea is not alien to our idea of “echad”. In math, numbers are fundamentally made up of only three families: the complex numbers, the real numbers and zero (common to the first two). Biological life can be summed up basically into three categories: those which can produce their own food (autotrophs like plants), those which only consume and which could not produce their own food (heterotrophs like my puppy here) and those which can decompose (the decomposers like bacteria, virus, etc) to bring the nutrients back to the soil. Procreation is defined at least by three people: the couple and their child.
Most Hebrew words are known to be usually made up of only three “letters”. Interestingly, the Temple is basically divided into three regions. The TNK is made up of three categories (Torah, Neviim and Ketuvim).
I liken the Christian idea of Trinity to the discovery that electricity (such as lightning that you cannot touch) and magnetism (such as a BAR magnet that which you can break), once thought to be separate forces, to be actually one (Heb., echad): (in a nutshell) magnetism is always borne out of a moving electric charge. Because of this discovery, it revolutionizes technology and society. Consider the electric generators and electric motors. You know these, of course.
I really don’t make sense, right?
No, you don’t make much sense in what you have to say. Sorry.
Living a Jewish life is ALL about putting G-d first. He told us what He wants from us at Sinai. We obey His commandments because we love G-d.
Personally, I did what I did and do what I do as a Jew, because G-d actively intervened in my life. Not ultimately because I wanted it, but because G-d wanted it. And as I was privileged to be shown directly by the One infinite G-d that all there is is Him and I can have a relationship with Him directly, no intermediary necessary, then on a personal level actually I KNOW for sure that the theology of Christianity simply isn’t true. And if you are able to read the Tanach with an open mind without any reference to the NT, preferably in the original Hebrew, then it simply does not support what ultimately is an essentially pagan theology of “three persons in one”. Time and again in the Tanach we are told that G-d is One and that there is no saviour or redeemer besides Him.
Gila8 you are right on the money! This is word for word as my experience too. I can’t explain why but I know G-d called me back in an undeniable way. I know many people who have experienced this. We seem to find each other.
Good Shabbos Gila!
Have a great shabbos yourself! Good to see you again online.
You know Barbara Richmond, aka Leah Rafaeli? Why both you and leah8 have the same 8 in your names? I learned it just now about a certain B. Richmond telling lies about 40 Orthodox rabbis.
Leah and Gila,
one of you mentioned, theres only 2-6 Jews in a Messianic congregation:
since I don’t think neither of you live in Israel, let me encourage your to expand from black and white thinking:
in Messianic congregations, yes there are the Christian gentile wannabe-Jews, but there are many Christians with Jewish background that wish to discover roots from a previous generation of their families.
This is very true Maz and I’m glad you brought it up. I too went to a Messianic congregation looking for a way to connect with Jewish roots from a previous generation. I had recently discovered it hidden in my family genealogy and wanted to reconnect. I met many like me. Unfortunately the Messianic church did everything they could to steer me away from pursuing my own heritage. I felt like a trapped animal. They wouldn’t recognize I had a legitimate claim to a Jewish heritage. I was miserable and I met with the congregation leader many times to ask for his help. He encouraged me to accept my lot in this predicament because I had to be here “as I am”. I knew there were others like me and they were struggling too. I saw a purpose in the messianic movement to put Jews who had become disconnected from their heritage over the exile back on the path to return. Instead they had their own agenda. I stayed four years but eventually it began to fall apart and a deep research of my own place in Israel took me through a serious study of the scriptures which was eventually the undoing of my faith as I discovered truths the church couldn’t answer to.
Oddly, had the Messianic minister (he was Jewish and they called him Rabbi but he never went to college or divinity school) helped me along the way I may never have lost my faith.
In the end, however, I learned the truth and realized G-d never wanted me to compromise or settle for anything less than a full membership into the Jewish people. I learned you can’t have it both ways. These people are settling for less.
Michael Wilson,
“but nowhere in Judaism…”
Glad you made a distinction, because it is all over the Tanach…If you don’t know where to look (and it is obvious you don’t), just ask and we will show you….Have a great Shabbat…..
Anyone who knows about Barbara Richmond a.k.a. Leah Rafaeli?
Anyway, try this site: http://revlu.com/br.html
(I have found it over the internet after learning and hearing the story).
Andrew Sheldrake is not a Messianic rabbi, he’s a very naughty goy!
It’s a deception, that’s what kind of state it is! It isn’t helpful to try to convince these people they’re not Jewish or shouldn’t convert. What they’re experiencing is very real. They know they’re being called back. Acknowledge it and put them on track to a real conversion. Send them to a Rabbi who will help them.
Leah, as mentioned before, theres competition from lots of different religious groups for conversion. This includes the Chabad who are in full force with their yellow posters of Schneerson with Hebrew ‘Rav Melech Ha’Mashiach’ which is EVERYWHERE all over Jerusalem.
The Breslovers who spread the Na Nachman message in their vans with their travelling techno music too.
You need to see beyond the black and white message that antimissionaries spew out.
If your Rabbi or Yad Lachim or whatever are telling your stay away from Christians and Messianics as religious bogeymen, but want you to get you into Chabad how does that make you feel?
Dont you think we need to stop trusting in men, and put our faith in God and Torah?
Real Judaism is all about putting our faith in G-d and in His Torah.
Most people involved in Chabad are not Moshichists ie they don’t for a moment consider the seventh Lubavitcher Rebbe as being anything more than a very holy and wise man who did a great deal of good for the Jewish.people. Chabad rabbis do a great deal of good in providing a non-threatening, non-preaching religious Jewish environment where Jews can discover, if their soul is waking up, the richness of their heritage and the joy and fulfillment in an observant lifestyle, bringing them closer to G-d. They love every Jew, regardless of their level of religious observance or where their experience of Jewish spirituality may or may not lead.
The most black and white thinking people I have generally encountered have been Christian missionaries. “Antimissionaries” actually encourage people to think for themselves.
Gila8 you are obviously not familiar with Yad L’Achim, Jews for Judaism and such and how they often manipulate people, get yourself over to Israel and see what really happens there.
I’ve been too busy to respond to these posts the past few days but wanted to make a quick disclaimer.
Although I know some Chabad Jews and have been to their home I am not a Chabadnik. In my city we have Jews of all branches: Sephardic, Ashkenazi, Reform, Conservative and Orthodox. You can’t be Jewish around here and not connect with them.
Chabad don’t missionize non-Jews. Their outreach is to bring Jews back into observance. However, I have met a few who pursued conversion through Chabad but they are rare.
One additional comment. The fact that there are indeed Moshichists also involved in Chabad who are able to believe, however illogically, that Rabbi Schneersohn was the Moshiach, is to me very instructive in understanding how early Jewish Christians were able to believe that jc was the Moshiach, and indeed how various other false messianic claimants over the centuries, such as Shabbatai Zvi, were able to do likewise.
PLEASE read… H”B
I think Yeshua (our) Messiah (candidate) has great qualifications to be taken with deep seriousness about “His” claims. He had bulls eyed many prophecies (more than 40, at the least) and mathematically, that is staggering, which if you see mathematics to be beautiful, you could appreciate a lot. The Rebbe, though he had lived a righteous life, was even not born in Israel, whose Davidic ancestry is far from close with all probability. Not even sz. That is laughable.
Take for instance Haggai 2:9:
“The GLORY of this latter house (Second Temple) shall be greater than that of the former, saith the LORD of hosts; and in this place will I give peace, saith the LORD of hosts.’” [emphases mine]
What is your explanation for this? Of course, this could not mean the physical make up of the “latter house” since GOD does not put earthly physical beauty as even important (Greeks love physical beauty but not with the Jewish GOD). The First Temple had the Shekinah, the ark (Aron HaBrit), and was encrusted with gold in its interiors, to name a few. So, physically (with its golden interiors and cedar beams, you’ll love its smell) and authentically (from the time of Moshe), the Second Temple pales in comparison with the First. The Second Temple looked quite Graeco-Roman, actually, thanks to a puppet Edomite king. So what is that GLORY being alluded to, in Haggai 2:9? Compare this to Matthew 12:6: “I tell you that ONE greater than the Temple is here.”
And what is that peace? The Second Temple’s existence was rife with death and wars. If you think that GOD is not a liar, with all honesty, you should consider this “goyishe” idea that it is “Jesus”, Yeshua, Who only fulfilled the prophecy. The peace He gives is what made billions, since His time on earth, have changed lives. This peace is not an immediate peace between nations but a “shalom” and a right standing with GOD. Compare this to Isaiah 53:5-6:
“But he was wounded because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed. All we like sheep did go astray, we turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath made to light on him the iniquity of us all.”
Consider again Malachi 3:1:
“Behold, I send My messenger, and he shall clear the way before Me; and the Lord, whom ye seek, will suddenly come to His temple, and the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in, behold, he cometh, saith the LORD of hosts.”
The Temple had been destroyed already and if the Messiah has not yet come, how is this possible? How will the LORD appear suddenly in the Temple when it (the Second Temple, in context) was already gone and desecrated? (Malachi was from the Second Temple period and it is the context in the prophecy). Consider the connection to Isaiah 66:7:
“Before she (Israel) travailed (in 70 CE), she brought forth (the Messiah); before her pain came, she was delivered of a man-child (this is the Messiah).” [adapted from Bereshit Rabbati 133 (Isaiah 66:7), insertions mine]
He already came! You have forgotten the fourth wheel… Look back (come back and take Him to fix the problem)!
Thankfully, the LORD is faithful to His promises and obviously He is an active GOD for the Christians (because He fulfills His words). And He did all of those before the Temple was destroyed. So for me, comparing those guys with Him is not even close (and seriously, insulting, since the Messiah is none other but the LORD).
kosher glatt…
I hope you eat those “spiritual food” (verses from the TNK) well. Think about it.
Jc did not fulfill any of the important messianic prophecies ie bringing world peace, rebuilding the Temple (which still stood in his day), or bringing the Jews back to Israel (who had not yet been dispersed by the Romans). Until or unless he were to do so, we cannot accept him.
Even if he were to miraculously reappear and to fulfill the requirements of the moshiach, there is another problem with Christian messianic concepts, in that the Jewish moshiach will be a man and not, heaven forbid, in any way divine.
Those are not exactly (per se) coming from the WORD of GOD… Those qualifications are not explicitly enumerated/stated in the TNK that for a person to be called a messiah he has to do this or that and are only theological commentaries from the rabbis. However, the ones I pointed to you are directly from the TNK. There is a tradition among the rabbis that the messiah should have already come [before the destruction of the Second Temple]. Take note of this (to cite one):
R. Hillel said: There shall be no Messiah for Israel, because they have already enjoyed him in the days of Hezekiah. R. Joseph said: May God forgive him (R. Hillel) [for saying so]. Now, when did Hezekiah flourish? During the first Temple. Yet Zechariah, prophesying in the days of the Second, proclaimed, Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion, shout, O daughter of Jerusalem, behold, thy king cometh unto thee! he is just, and having salvation, lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. [Zech. 9:9]
— Talmud Bavli: Tractate Sanhedrin folio 99a
Rabbi Joseph is implying that the Messiah should have appeared before the Temple is destroyed. They existed after 70 CE. Further, you should not expect a first-comer messiah after 70 CE since no records of Davidic lineage is extant; i.e., how can we verify a claimant to be a Messiah if we are not sure whether he has a pure, homogeneous Jewish Davidic DNA, running in his blood? At any rate, that single prophecy alone he cannot fulfill. Unless, if that Messiah (whether He is Yeshua or not) comes directly from above, then there would be no more doubts! If He comes from the clouds, what is He, human or divine?
Yeshua is by no doubt the Son of David. If He is not, then many Jews (including Levites and rabbis) of His time (approx. 25% of Jerusalem pop.), should have not believed Him given the records were still extant in the Temple records for any claimant. And that the movement grew only after 50 days of His death! Staggering!
Tractate Sanhedrin 43a:
“Ulla retorted: ‘Do you suppose that he (referring to Yeshu/Yeshua) was one for whom a defence could be made? Was he not a Mesith [enticer], concerning whom Scripture says, Neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him? [Deut. 13:9] With Yeshu however it was different, for he was connected with the government [or royalty, i.e., influential].’” [verbatim except for my insertion (Yeshu/Yeshua)]
— That is, it took long for them to hang Him, though supposedly a mesith, because many thought He had a valid claim to be a Messiah, since He was connected with the royalty (i.e., He was from the line of David). We know that He was not connected with Herod or with Pilate, so the logical conclusion here is that He has had a valid Davidic claim.
_________________________________________
Assuming the messiah (whoever he may be) is not the LORD himself, are you sure you will not idolise him? Given the natural instinct of looking at such a “huge” personality, no doubt, many will make GOD angry (again), idolatry potential is quite extremely likely or very high for the human messiah. What did the LORD think about this? He made it sure, since the beginning, that everything would be perfect, He would assume the role Himself. Take it or leave it. May Heaven forbid that the messiah is not Divine. Because, otherwise, if he is just purely human, no matter how good he will do, the religious sectors will make it necessary to show the world that the messiah is not divine by criticising him at times (because they also want to control their urges not to idolise him) and to the point of controlling him (like a constitutional monarch) to repress even their own instinct of worshipping him — reminding them that they should not idolise a man. At any rate, that is NOT the role of the Real Messiah, he will never be controlled or criticised by mere men just like what they did to King David. Heaven forbid that, He should be Divine. Period.
“I believe with perfect faith in the coming of the Messiah. How long it takes, I will await His coming every day.”
If He comes, what would you think of Him? A man or the LORD Himself? I can say now, assuming he is man (only), all people will by no means idolise him (it’s in the urge after a very, very long expectation), to the point of worship. So GOD made it for good that He took the role Himself, even before the universe was created.
“I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall COME TO PASS, that whosoever will not hearken unto My words which he shall speak in My name, I will require it of him.” Deuteronomy 18:18-19
Since the Jews did not believe in Him (John 3:16), God “required it on them”, it is in the Torah.
“Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah; not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; forasmuch as they broke My covenant, although I was a lord over them, saith the LORD. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the LORD, I will put My law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people;” Jeremiah 31:30-32
This covenant is LOVE (Chesed). The beginning and end of Torah is Chesed. The whole message of Yeshua is LOVE, for GOD is LOVE (Chesed).
So Gev, if I understand you correctly, your objection to this group in the UK is that they are really Christians masquerading as Jews. They are converting other Christians to what they call “Judaism”, circumcising Christian children as if they were Jewish,etc. Is that the objection?
Gentiles pretending to be Jews Mark, not all Gentiles are Christians.
Christian and Gentile are not equivalents.
OK, I understand that perspective. So are you saying that these people, who claim to be followers of Jesus aren’t Christian – as you understand the terminology?
They claim they are not Christian in any sense of the word!
So if I understand you correctly, if a person who was not born Jewish, and hasn’t converted to Judaism (according to Halacha), but claims to be a follower of Jesus, they are not necessarily a Christian. Is that correct?
I class Jehovah’s Witnesses that way Mark.
Just out of curiosity, how do you classify (catagorize) Ruth Fleisher (Snow), her former husband, Chuck, Dan Juster, Boaz Michael, etc.?
To Maz deshalosh
Actually I live in Israel and know about both Yad L’Achim and Jews for Judaism.
From a Jewish perspective, Christian/Messianic missionaries are seeking to turn Jews towards idol worship and AWAY from their true path to G-d. Their very soul is at stake (sound familiar?!). As all Jews are effectively all part of one soul before G-d, you will I hope understand the concern involved by some religious Jews for their fellow Jews. Those Jews who are vulnerable to being missionized into accepting Christianity, however Jewishly it may be dressed up, are usually good earnest people who have never truly experienced the depth of Jewish spirituality and fulfillment found in orthodox Judaism.
This group is committing the Galatian error, this is not about Jews still being Jewish when convinced Jesus is Messiah, Galatians challenged Gentiles who get circumcised thinking it gives them spiritual superiority of some sort: Galatians 6:12-16.
Gila8, ok if you live in Israel, you are seeing a very narrow side of things.
Various friends of mine, previously religious or secular, some sabras and some immigrants have all come from very different backgrounds, some have been led to Yeshua by other Messianics some by regular Christians, some have made a decision on their own, some have had direct touch from God themselves.
There is of course, you average stereotypical missionary who gives out tracts on Tel Aviv beaches, but there are plenty of other ways Israelis are finding their Messiah.
Bottom line is many different Jewish people from all kinds of backgrounds are finding their Lord and saviour, and for those out to harrass, distract or intimitate them, people are finding their Moshaich, and theres absolutely nothing you can do stop it.
That may be your experience. My experience is of many people coming INTO Judaism, whether as baal teshuvas or converts. And many people, like myself, are being led by G-d OUT of Christianity into Judaism – real Judaism that is – and realizing that the clear words of the Tanach where we are told that G-d is One, that we should worship only Him, and that there is no saviour or redeemer besides Hashem (see Isaiah chapters 43 to 45) mean exactly what they say.
The trouble is, that there is usually an agenda where Christians are helping vulnerable people, that is to try to lead them to belief in jc. For non-Jews that may be a noble thing to do. For Jews, however well-meaning Christians may be, accepting jc ultimately takes us AWAY from G-d. Sadly the Jewish people you describe, unless they later find their way back to their true Jewish path to G-d, are the ones who will lose in the end.
Orthodox Jews believe there are many paths to G-d for humanity, whereas Christians believe there is only one way for anyone to be acceptable to G-d ie to accept jc. Which attitude seems more narrow-minded to you?!
It’s interesting you mention that “many people are being led by G-d OUT of Christianity into Judaism”, because I have noticed the same thing. We have
definitely had an increase in people converting to Judaism. I go to a small
Orthodox shul, and so far four people have converted this year alone. That may
not sound like a huge amount, but for a small shul in a small community, and
the difficulty that lies in converting Orthodox- that’s a large number. More
that I think converted the previous half dozen years put together.
I am not involved in the non-Orthodox community, so I don’t know where they
stand in regards to conversion-but if we have had an increase, undoubtedly
they have had a much greater increase as most people do not convert
Orthodox.
Excellent!
I’ve done a lot of personal study on this. The Johannine Comma is another such “insertion” which he may have gotten to later in the video but I didn’t listen through the whole thing.
I have to stop at the 36 minutes it is late but I already could wrap it up as an other case of ‘very careful study”
ARe you kidding? Poor students of these kinds of professors and they pay to receive such bad information. I am sorry also for roshapina who is recieving such good scholarship poison lately 
If this quite unprofessional professor could not go to Egypt or visit the Vatican he could at least have surfured the internet 
or go to a women studies seminar where these kind of informations are quite studied as example of how the gospel was considered in many societies too progressive…but of course it would have required too much work of truth for this new professor on the block of ignorance…as if we need more of them..and I speak from direct knowledge ;:-)
“Until recently, it was not thought that any Greek Church Father had taken note of the passage before the 12th Century; but in 1941 a large collection of the writings of Didymus the Blind (ca. 313- 398) was discovered in Egypt, including a reference to the pericope adulterae as being found in “several copies”; and it is now considered established that this passage was present in its usual place in some Greek manuscripts known in Alexandria and elsewhere from the 4th Century onwards. In support of this it is noted that the 4th century Codex Vaticanus, which was written in Egypt, marks the end of John chapter 7 with an “umlaut”, indicating that an alternative reading was known at this point.
Jerome reports that the pericope adulterae was to be found in its usual place in “many Greek and Latin manuscripts” in Rome and the Latin West in the late 4th Century. This is confirmed by some Latin Fathers of the 4th and 5th Centuries CE; including Ambrose, and Augustine. The latter claimed that the passage may have been improperly excluded from some manuscripts in order to avoid the impression that Christ had sanctioned adultery:
“Certain persons of little faith, or rather enemies of the true faith, fearing, I suppose, lest their wives should be given impunity in sinning, removed from their manuscripts the Lord’s act of forgiveness toward the adulteress, as if he who had said, Sin no more, had granted permission to sin.”[13]
one more thing, I read an article about Christians doing ministry to prostitutes in Tel Aviv. There were the usual hysterics from the anti-missionary crowd. Why is that? the women who being given showers, healthcare, a couple of coffee and a listening ear to any of their problems said that 20% of their clients were religious!!
Does anyone know if there is a Jedi self conversion programme?
I’ve always fancied wearing one of those cloaks, put a braid in my hair, and carrying a real lightsabre!
Sign me up!
What about we create our own union, with our very own conversion programme?
The Union of British Jedi’s!
Hey! What about us Yanks?
Just found this!
http://jedifoundation.com/#!/
You know, I’d not have much of a problem with them if they didn’t claim what wasn’t true. If Gentiles want to wear a kippah and tallit & don’t claim they are Jewish, well… Ok I guess, imitation is a form of flattery!
Natalie Portman is Israeli!
The bit where Obi Wan, Luke and Yoda are “glowing” at the end of one of the original films makes me think of Jesus at the mount of transfiguration
Mount Nebo, and Endor, in the scriptures and in the books of Lucas
As a kid in New York & New Jersey before immigrating to Israel I attended both the local Jewish community centre and a Roman Catholic School. Before second birth in The Lord while in college I was both sprinkled and clipped. I see faith in Yeshua from both a Gentile and a Jewish perspective. I speak Hebrew, my Israeli Jewish wife (daughter of holocaust survivors and ex refusenik) and Israel born children were all saved in Israel where our son did the army (IDF) in a combat brigade etc. yet we attend churches with Jews and non Jews mixed. Our children are Jewish lawyers but our daughter is married to a half Jewish believer. My family kept Jewish identity in Yehua and our children had Bar Mitzveh/ Bat Mitzveh. We are mixed blood, and mixed cultures, but not mixed up in our faith.
The notion of converting to Judaism as a non Jew while retaining faith in Jesus is mixed up and mixed faith. Just look at how screwed up Chuck Snow, Philip Sharp, and The Sorko Rams are. Look at Ruth Fleischer and that whacko so called rabbi Hayim Levy from Columbia she followed was and that sick pedo perv Chalmers.
After reaing The Epistle to The Galatans, 1 Corinthians chapter 7, and Acts 15 – if anyone not Jewish still wants to convert to Judaism (circumcision et al), the first thing they shoud get is a Jewish name. The name I would suggest is “MISHUGINEH”.
Jacob Prasch
Moriel
Thanks Jacob, couldn’t agree more!
Thank you for saying so. I am well aware of what is going on with hidden and lost Jews finding their way back. This is a topic I have been studying for 10 years when I first began to notice it. I meet people all the time like this and try to encourage them and help them find a path back. At one time I thought the messianic movement might have a role as a bridge back for believers to transition while returning to Judaism (sans jc) but they get trapped in the middle like I did and the messianic movement confuses them about who they are and won’t let go or put them on the path back. Jews who turn to jc are Christians with a Jewish heritage but it is an offense to call yourself Jewish.
Hope you don’t mind if I clarify: if you are halachically Jewish (ie born from a Jewish mother or converted to Judaism orthodox) then you are always a Jew, whatever your level of observance or belief system. So a Jew who accepts jc is still Jewish, but his or her belief system and religious path definitely is not. If he or she subsequently repents and returns to Judaism no kind of conversion is necessary, but bathing in the mikvah is recommended and signifies a full return and cleansing from their previous idol worship. Conversely, no non-halachic “conversion” can make a non-Jew Jewish, whether it is a Reform or Messianic variety or anything else.
A non-Jew who converts genuinely and halachically to Judaism normally already has a Jewish spark, which once lit causes that person the strong desire, longing and need to come home to Judaism, a process which is completed at the moment of conversion in the mikvah in the presence of three shomer shabbat men, when he or she finally receives his or her full Jewish soul from Hashem.
I couldn’t have said it better myself! Thank you for explaining this so well gila. Great response Yechiel.
why is it that this song leaps to mind?
According to halacha, if you are Jewish then you can never lose your Jewishness. You can of course become an apostate and not be accepted as part of the community, but you are still and always a Jew before Hashem. And there is always hope, however unlikely it may seem, that such a Jew may repent and return to the Jewish path to Hashem.
This is why orthodox rabbis make it so difficult to convert to Judaism: you need to be absolutely sure of what you are getting into. As a righteous gentile you have fewer obligations to Hashem than as a Jew, and you are far better off spiritually if you remain a righteous gentile rather than become a backsliding Jew who fails to keep G-d’s commandments.
Again, if I may clarify, there are some Jewish people who cannot actually prove that they are Jewish, for instance halachically Jewish descendants of Jews who denied their heritage because of persecution including some descendants of Marranos. In order to be accepted by the Jewish community, such people do normally have to go through a conversion. I know one or two people who were in that position.
However, when someone is Jewish, they can never lose their Jewishness, whatever their belief system. There literally is a soul difference between Jews and non-Jews.
Dear goyisheyehudim;
On your post of where one may be, in relatioin to the divinity of a “messiah”, not only does the Tanach pre-supose that G-d is only One, indivisable, there is no doubt that the Gospels also support this.
I am posting some comments by Rabbi Tovia Singer, which bears on this question.
“““““““““““““““Matthew 3:17
What is the value of God indicating his pleasure in Jesus, if Jesus was himself? And what did Jesus supposedly achieve here, if he was God and it was impossible for him to sin, or do wrong? Was God taking pleasure in himself?
“““““““““““““““`Matthew 20:20-23
If Jesus was fully God, why could only the Father, and not Jesus, grant that the two sons of Zebedee sit at the right and left of Jesus?
Matthew 26:39
If the Father and Jesus were of the same substance, such a prayer would have been meaningless. Jesus would have been praying to himself, and his will, out of necessity, would have been that of the Father’s.
Matthew 26:53
If Jesus was God, why would he need to request from God legions of angels? Is there anything God lacks that He must request from another?
Mark 10:17-20
If, as Trinitarians insist, Jesus was God, why did Jesus rebuke the man for addressing him as “Good Teacher”? (Jesus believed th at the title “good” was appropriate for God alone, who he considered the only standard of goodness).
Interestingly, once the man was corrected, thereafter he only referred to Jesus as “Teacher.”
Mark 13:32
If Jesus was coequal with the Father, how could the Father have information that Jesus lacked? Moreover, if, as some Trinitarians suggest, the son was limited by his human nature, why didn’t the Holy Spirit know?
John 5:37
Yet Jesus said, “The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.” (John 13:16) Jesus said on numerous occasions that, “the Father… hath sent me.” (John 5:37,6:37) The Holy Ghost was also sent by the Father (John 14:26) and Jesus (John 16:7), thus making Jesus subordinate to the Father and the Holy Ghost inferior to both the Father and Jesus.
Moreover, God is by nature invisible and never seen, Jesus was of course seen. John 1:18, I John 4:12, I Tim. 6:16
John 8:17-18
In John 8:17-18, Jesus quotes from the Law the necessity that evidence, to be valid, must be agreed upon by two witnesses. Jesus states that the two witnesses are himself and God. Two, not one. If Jesus was God, there was only one witness, and if Jesus says there are two, then he and God are not one.
John 10:30
John 12:49
If God and Jesus are “one in essence,” as the Trinity doctrine says, how could Jesus’ accord, or will, be different from that of his Father? How can Jesus’ privilege not be the same as God? Moreover, if Jesus was the same as God, why would God have to send or command God to do anything?
This verse speaks for itself.
John 14:28
“…I [Jesus] go unto the Father, for my father is greater than I.”
John 17:3
Here Jesus insists that the Father is the “only true God.” The Greek word used here for “only” is monos, which is meant to exclude all others. Clearly, the Father cannot be “the only true God” if there are two others who are God to the same degree as he is.
John 20:17
If Jesus was God, why would he tell Mary that he considered her Father as his Father, and her God as his God? In Revelations 3:12, after the crucifixion, we continue to see Jesus calling the Father “my God.” But never in the Christian Bible is the Father reported to refer to Jesus as “my God,” nor does either the Father or Jesus refer to the Holy Spirit as “my God.”
Did Paul Believe In Doctrine of the Trinity?
I Corinthians 8:4
Paul insists that only the Father is declared to be the one and only God. In Ephesians 1:17 Paul is still unaware of the Trinity when he says, “That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ…”
I Corinthians 11:3
This verse does not depict Jesus as coequal with God. On the contrary, God is of superior rank to Jesus. Moreover, this statement reveals that the New Testament did not consider Jesus to be equal with God even after the ascension. Paul wrote these words around 55 C.E. — long after the crucifixion.
I Corinthians 15:28
Here Paul unambiguously insists that Jesus was subordinate to God as His “subject.” Throughout the New Testament it is claimed that God bestowed authority upon Jesus – never the other way around.
I Peter 1:3
As mentioned above, this concept is restated many times throughout the New Testament: the Father is Jesus’ God — never the other way around (see also Matt. 4:7, 27:46; Rom. 15:6, II Cor. 1:3, I Pet. 1:3; Rev. 1:6, 3:12 (four times).
Colossians 1:15
If the earliest Christians believed in the Trinity, why doesn’t the New Testament ever refer to the Father or the Holy Spirit as the “firstborn of all creation?” Understandably, the New Testament would never refer to the Father as “firstborn” because early Christianity considered the Father alone eternal.
I Timothy 2:5
The fact that Paul clearly distinguishes between God and Jesus places considerable strain on Trinitarianism
.Hebrews 4:15
Consider how the temptation of Jesus is portrayed throughout the Gospels. The New Testament emphatically states “Jesus was tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.” But the Church’s claim that Jesus is God creates insurmountable contradictions: Temptation without the possibility of falling to sin is meaningless. If Jesus is God, it was impossible for him to sin, and it makes no sense to say he was tempted.
Moreover, James 1:13 states that God cannot be tempted!
Hebrews 5:7
Why would God need to beg and cry to God to save him from death? Moreover, if the author of Hebrews considered Jesus God, why does Hebrews 5:8 insist that Jesus learned obedience from suffering? Is there anything God does not know and must learn through experience?
Sincerely yours,
Rabbi Tovia Singer
© Copyright Tovia Singer 2011
As it was, the concept can be read in the Gospels of a trinity, with in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit; but the language is different than the rest of the Gospel, so it could be one of the inserts.
Shalom;
Yechiel
Excellent hyechiel! Rabbi Tovia Singer is an expert on this. I have his book and I see you must too.
Great post. I don’t have Rabbi Singer’s book, but I have listened to all his downloadable talks from his site at outreach judaism which are very informative and interesting and have also seen and spoken to him in person. He is sincerely devoted to helping Jews to open their eyes and to think for themselves with regard to the many logical inconsistencies and contradictions of the Torah contained in the belief system of Christianity.
Yes gila, his downloadable talks are excellent! I especially love the Isaiah 53 one and the Daniel 9′s. I sit with my eBible and notes, pausing along the way to follow all the verses and make notes. The book has the time lines which are so great!
It’s a great shame that goyish can vomit back everything he hears at the pulpit and that is posted here but not bother to listen to a “real” Rabbi.
wow all you anti missionary folks all seem to worship Tovia Singer!
http://roshpinaproject.com/2009/12/31/claim-tovia-singer-uses-neuro-linguistic-programming/
Blimey!!!
check these too: http://roshpinaproject.com/2010/03/04/tovia-singer-i-love-messianic-jews-so-deeply-that-i-devote-my-life-to-reaching-out-to-them/
http://roshpinaproject.com/2010/01/06/outreach-judaism-over-exaggerate-numbers/
http://roshpinaproject.com/2009/11/30/tovia-singer-promotes-missionar/
http://roshpinaproject.com/2011/03/19/outreach-judaism-prophet-tovia-singer-fights-spiritual-nazis/
Actually those of us who are following the real Jewish path to G-d worship only Hashem.
Yes, this is true.
A good Rabbi instructs us in ways of Torah on our path.
Yechiel,
Im going to ask you what I asked the two ladies here who couldn’t give me a straight answer.
Would you challenge followers of the Chabad Rebbe moshiach and the Breslover Na Nach moshiach who do lots missionizing all over Israel especially in Jerusalem, like you challenge Messianic Jews and Christians?
if not, why.
Although you directed this question at Yechiel, I will give you my own answer.
Firstly, most Chabadniks – including my husband – are not moshichists ie they do not believe that the last Lubavitcher Rebbe was the moshiach. As he did not fulfill the requirements of the moshiach, ie bringing world peace, rebuilding the Temple and bringing about the return of the Jewish people to Israel, he did not qualify. The fact that a minority of people seem to believe that he was the moshiach is highly illogical and to me inexplicable, but it does provide compelling evidence for how a group of Jews in the first century could have been similarly misguided about jc.
No-one to my knowledge has suggested that Rabbi Nachman of Breslov could have been the moshiach. He was a very holy man who inspired a lot of people, as was the last Lubavitcher Rebbe.
Chabad shluchim, who can be found all over the world, do an incredible job in being an available resource of Yiddishkeit for Jews, wherever they go. Every Jew, however far removed he or she may be from G-d, has a “pintele Yid” inside that can be awoken. Chabad shluchim do not proselytize, they do not force their opinions on anyone, but only respond to any Jews who turn up on their doorstep who are seeking spiritually, allowing them to find out more about their true heritage and the deep fulfillment that can be found in the Jewish path to G-d. When you open up to it and start living an observant life, you find that it is the most natural thing in the world for a Jew to follow the Torah. However, like all things really worth acquiring, you essentially have to seek it out for yourself.
When Chabad and Beslovers reach out to their fellow Jews its not evangelizing.
evangelizing is when christians want Jews to become christians. Jews do not
evangelize. Difficult concept, I am sure for you to understand, but that is the
case. So please do not attempt to equate our Jewish Brothers with
Christians who pretend they are Jews to trick the uninformed and uneducated.
My local Chabad shul offers gallons of booze at the end of the service on Shabbat, not proselytizing but certainly brings the lads in!!!
Chabad does not proselytize…they are simply trying to reach other Jews
and enlighten them about “Jewish” life and Torah. Unlike christians,
Jews drink L’Chaims…its not a sin as so many christians are taught to believe.
gallons of booze is a bit overstated for sure. There is usually a beautiful
Kosher oneg as well.
This is how Jews celebrate Shabbos…
This is true. It’s apples to oranges if you’re trying to compare the two. Jews never try to convert non-Jews. They only reach out to Jews who have become separated and indifferent and they certainly never do it on the premise of the coming of Moshiach.
These UBMS ‘rabbis’ Brian, Andrew and Julian are all complete fakes, they look like christians talk like christians and they are offering to convert people to messianic judaism!!! Ha Ha, funniest thing I’ve read in years!!!
Brian Sabey is a christian minister he was exposed by this website http://www.messianicjewishtruth.com/bethhallel
I don’t understand liberal Jews who support Palestinians either.
I guess they are so estranged from Judaism that they have let liberal
beliefs over ride Torah and common sense.
“So what kind of state of affairs is it when you have Gentile Christians converting themselves to something they claim is Judaism, or Messianic Judaism, or claiming Jewishness by virtue of some distant relative and then offering to convert other Gentiles, to what they claim is Judaism!?”
Is this really so different from what happens in the US? Some Messianics consider themselves Jews because they have a very distant Jewish relative, or someone who has what they consider to be a Jewish sounding name, or they’ve been “grafted” in. Some gentiles have “converted”
to “Messianic” Judaism and now believe they are a part of the Jewish people. I don’t think
this is any crazier than what is happening in the UK.
Nope, no different.
Where is the :”Like” button on this page anyway?
If they can steal our identity then we will be “a people” no more. That is how they eliminate us.
[Remember, the highest percentage of those with a Jewish mother in all MJs is 16%. ]
sources please??
It’s been happening for awhile. I started following it about 10 years ago when there was no one around to answer my questions about this. I knew something was happening, I was dreaming… I can’t explain… I began searching and I was finding out it was happening to people all over the world, in pockets here and there, remote areas. I had to pursue it and find out why. I started looking for waymarks (Jeremiah 31) to find my way back. I got sidetracked by messianic “Judaism” and off track for awhile then I got back on the path. They’ll waylay you to keep it from happening by telling you “oh, come over here, this is Judaism, you can believe in our messiah and still be Jewish” . It’s not. I took a long detour to find out in the end that messianic “Judaism” is not the real deal and you can’t have it both ways.
I don’t think some Christian organizations supporting Palestinians has anything with their belief that we killed their god. Seems like the organizations that support Pally’s are liberal. They have drifted away from what their god commands them. Support Palestinians, support gay marriage, etc etc.
They are good liberals and oppose Israel like many liberals do.
What worries me even more isn’t the Christians in Palestine, it’s the too liberal Jews who are pro-Palestine and anti-Israel! Wow, I know one very well and I have a hard time believing he could possibly be Jewish! (or even Christian for that matter)
Oh, right. Just a few weeks ago, you said St Augustine was the first pope, which is totally clueless, and when I pressed you for a source, you came up with something which had the words “Pope Augustine” in it, but that turned out to be a headline of an article about the current Pope talking about Augustine.
http://roshpinaproject.com/2012/07/24/replacement-theology/
Not only do you have severe clue deficiency, you’re using Google without using your brain, a very bad combination. It’s already incredibly difficult to take you at all seriously, but denying that you have any responsibility to back up your claims with sources makes it impossible.
Dear All:
I hope you will read the link hyechiel posted above to “The Missionary Vaccine”.
This article is dead on! Read it, consider it then help the Jews you know find their way to “true” Judaism, Tanakh that does not include your messiah. If you really love Israel and really love the Jews, stop trying to “save us”. Instead, lead us to a good Rabbi in a good shul, not a messianic “synagogue”. This would be the best thing you can do for Israel and the Jews.
Rabbi Carlebach was the first to begin to show Jews who came out of that “dry” generation that there is something very deep and wonderful about Judaism. They grew up in the post-Holocaust generation that wanted to distance themselves from their Jewish identity, a generation in mourning for Judaism, a generation under the dark cloud of what it meant to be Jewish in Germany. They knew no love for it. Now there is an awakening. Polish Rabbi Pash said it well when he first spoke of the hidden Jews of Poland: “G-d is awakening the Jewish soul in our time….(parapharsed) saying arise arise, now is the time…”.
I see how the messianic Christians in Israel take advantage of the Russian Jews. I know Lura and Eddie Beckford, been in their home while they were on house arrest. Oh “poor them” persecuted by the Hassid for trying to convert Russian Jews.
If you read the article hy posted and don’t feel guilty for the way you target Jews then go back and read it again until you do then come here and justify yourself, I dare you to prove there is valid justification for preying on Jews.
Thank you, I’m very passionate about this. I had a near miss with an appointment in time with Carlebach when I was in Haight Ashbury during the summer of love. I wasn’t to know it until forty years later. That was only the beginning. Now is a real awakening to gather the grains lest they should fall through. I see it so clearly, I wish I could put into words how I know, why I understand this so well, why it eats at me so much and stirs my Jewish soul that cannot rest if there are Jews out there being led away….
I woke up early this morning and decided to get my day started and linger at the computer longer than I normally would before heading off to work. I poured a second cup of coffee and read this letter. It brought tears to my eyes to read this. Two years ago I visited the home of a Hungarian Jew in my region who watched her mother walk away at the initial selection upon their arrival to Auschwitz. Her entire family perished.
Soon the last Holocaust survivor will pass away and the generation who suffered will no longer be with us. Now it’s time to cross over into the Promised Land. There’s a parallel between the Israelites who came out of Egypt and the Jews who survived Auschwitz. The first were the generation of bondage, destined to wander in the desert until their generation passed away and a new generation who had never know this bondage were to enter into Israel. Now we are seeing a repeat, this generation who had suffered in Auschwitz are passing away and a new generation are waking up and discovering the Promised Land.
There’s a man here named Luke and we spent months arguing Isaiah 53. I would have quit him long ago except that he told me his grandparents were victims of the Holocaust. If I recall, they were Hungarian Jews. He told me his grandfather won’t even speak to him anymore because he converted. I pray for him from time to time, hoping he will finally see who he is, where he comes from, what we believe and why we, as a people, will have our salvation as a people together, not as individuals who look to a slaughtered human for forgiveness but as a people who, with each other by our side, look to HaShem.