MK Michael Ben Ari member of Israeli Parliament destroying a copy of the Bible, presumably just the New Testament section. Photo: Itamar Ben-Gvir
Following on from our comments on the story about the fuss some Israeli politicians were making for receiving a copy of the Holy Bible in Hebrew, one far right member of the Israeli parliament has destroyed his copy in front of the cameras.
MK Michael Ben Ari of the Religious Right Wing National Union party, chose to defile the holy book of another faith in front of the camera, citing persecution he believes was caused by the New Testament, as 
justification for his act.
Ynet reports:
However, while most MK’s chose to ignore the book or return it to its sender, the rightist lawmaker chose to term the book a “provocation,” tore it up into shreds and then threw it out.
“This abominable book (the New Testament) galvanized the murder of millions of Jews during the Inquisition and during auto da fe instances,” Ben Ari said adding that “Sending the book to MK’s is a provocation. There is no doubt that this book and all it represents belongs in the garbage can of history.”
However his excuse did not wash with the government who gave this unequivocal response:
Government spokesman Mark Regev said, “We totally deplore this behavior and condemn it outright. This action stands in complete contrast to our values and our traditions. Israel is a tolerant society, but we have zero tolerance for this despicable and hateful act.”
The Jerusalem Post also reported that Knesset member Masud Gnaim (a Muslim) commented on the issue:
“I got a copy of the New Testament in the mail, too, but I never thought to rip it up or burn it,” “As a Muslim, I respect all religions’ holy books.”
The Knesset’s only Christian MK called for legal action against Ben Ari:
Attorney-General Yehuda Weinstein should press incitement charges against MK Michael Ben-Ari (National Union) for tearing a New Testament and throwing it in the trash, the Knesset’s sole Christian MK, Hanna Sweid (Hadash), said Wednesday.
The ADL also commented:
In a statement by the Anti-Defamation League, the organization said it “was horrified” by the act and called on Ben-Ari to publicly apologize for his actions.
“As Jews, we expect others to treat our holy books with respect and understanding,” said Abraham H. Foxman, the ADL’s national director. “We should likewise show respect for the holy books of other faiths.”
Foxman said that “a member of parliament and a representative of the State of Israel ” was even more obligated than the average person to act with respect. ”His actions run counter to Jewish values and the standards of Israel’s democratic society,” Foxman said.
The MK is not alone in his desecration of the New Testament
Amnon Yitzhak, a leading Rabbi officiated at the ritual burning of a New Testament here.
Anti-Christian organisation Jewish Israel encourages New Testament burning here.
MIna Fenton, former Jerusalem councilor advocated burning Christian books here.
Chief Rabbi of Kiriat Motzkin claims New Testament too dangerous to keep at home and should be burnt, here.
Mayor of Ohr Yehuda burnt New Testaments in public, here
Once upon a time His Majesty the King stood before men like Michael Ben Ari and told them: “You are of your father, the devil, and you prefer to do what your father wants. He was a murderer from the start; he was never grounded in the truth; there is no truth in him at all. When he lies, he is speaking true to his nature, because he is a liar and the father of lies.” (John 8:44).
Ben Ari’s disgraceful act is an act of blasphemy and of high treason against the King and the Throne of David. Be assured, he will answer to the Messiah for this.
Proverbs 21.2. Every way of man is right in his own eyes. but Adonai weighs the hearts.
To do justice and judgement is more acceptable to Adonai than sacrifice.
Who did Michael think he was pleasing?
What a shame, The New Testament section has Tanak references of the Word of G-d.
“This abominable book (the New Testament) galvanized the murder of millions of Jews during the Inquisition and during auto da fe instances,” the NT is not guilty but the men that make wrong deed in the name of G-d as Michael Ben Ari.
What a shame, The New Testament section has Tanak references of the Word of G-d.
“This abominable book (the New Testament) galvanized the murder of millions of Jews during the Inquisition and during auto da fe instances,” the NT is not guilty but the men that make wrong deed in the name of G-d as Michael Ben Ari.
The books of the New Testament, especially Matthew, Mark, Jude and James are written by and for Jewish people. Yeshua (Jesus), his family and his disciples were all very religious Jews. It wasn’t until Saul of Tarsus, or Paul, entered the picture, did the rift begin. Yeshua himself, his family and his disciples never envisioned a separate religion. His words and actions brought a picture of a loving, unselfish and kind G-d. In every way, Yeshua was against the Roman occupation of Israel and the puppet Jewish leaders under them who benefited from the occupation. Almost 20 years after Yeshua’s crucifixion Saul, or Paul, entered the picture and preached to the Gentiles (before that time, Saul actually went out and murdered Jewish Christians.) His ‘conversion’ to Christianity led to the religions we see today, which shouldn’t be considered Christian – they should be ‘Pauline’ if anything. If we peel back the ugly layers of years of mistrust and confusion and go back to Yeshua (Jesus) himself, their would be a new respect between the three big religions. Unfortunately, the seeds of hate are sometimes easier to plant than love.
Acts 9 places Paul’s conversion at about 5 years after the crucifixion.
As a Jew of the Orthodox tradition, I am knowledgeable of our history. Many deplorable acts of violence and murder against my people were commented based on this book. It does not excuse his act of disrespect for the Christian religion. As Hillel said; “That which you find deplorable to have done to you, do not do unto others.”
Also, he should be brought before an Israeli court for his immoral action, as it is immoral and brings disrespect towards the State of Israel, and the Jewish people.
Shalom;
Yechiel
“As author of “Kosher Jesus,” Rabbi Boteach was appalled by MK Michael Ben Ari’s tearing up the New Testament. “I’ve seen irrational Jewish reactions to Christian scriptures. This reaction on the part of some Jews to Christianity and their desire to denigrate it is a tragic reminder of how Judaism was often treated by Christians. They do that in Saudi Arabia. It’s Taliban stuff. It’s not Jewish.”"
http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/focus-u-s-a/it-s-the-americans-stupid.premium-1.452075
Maybe next time they can send pork to Orthodox Jewish people because the allegedly “holy” New Testament according to some people allows Jewish people to eat pork. Or maybe Catholics can send statues of saints to them, and then get mad if they break them. By the way, if Catholic missionaries sent you guys pictures or statues of saints as part of their missionary work, would any of you break them or throw them away since you are against destroying other religions’ holy books? what about their holy objects?
I assume you would be very gentle with their statues. To Orthodox Jews, the New Testament is the same thing. ONe person’s holy object (book) is another person’s unholy object (book).
Kenneth Greifer
Is every religious book considered holy in Judaism. Can a Jewish person tear up a Jewish religious book if it does not have G-d’s name in Hebrew or do all Jewish books have to be treated as sacred? If they are not all considered sacred, then why should a New Testament be considered sacred? What are the rules for saying a book is sacred according to Judaism?
Kenneth Greifer
Kenneth, I am new to this area, and I am still learning about the various religious traditions, so I am going to approach this from a secular stand point. If I was a sent a copy of the Jewish Holy book, and I do the same thing this MK did, am I right or wrong? I use the the abbreviation G-d, not out of any religious conviction, but out of respect for your beliefs. Am I right or wrong? What if I burned a torah scroll, because some of the history of the Jewish People offended me? I am not a Jew, so how should I treat the Torah? And I am not an elected official. If you want respect, give respect.
Good Shabbos and Shalom to all out there.
Russ
Russ,
If you read the Torah (the first five books of Moses), you will notice a lack of respect for other religions. Idol worshipers were killed and their idols destroyed. It does not exactly teach religious freedom, etc.
I think that it is wrong for people to burn Torah scrolls, but I don’t think it is wrong to destroy a New Testament. One is holy, and one is not. A New Testament or a statue or picture of a saint are not holy objects to me. I believe people should have religious freedom around the world, but if you send an Orthodox Jew a copy of the New Testament, the Israeli government should not require them to respectfully dispose of it. People who send these out know what will happen to most of them, but they hope to spread their beliefs to some of the people who get them.
THey have the right to mail them out and the recipients have the right to dispose of them as they see fit.
Kenneth Greifer
http://www.messianicmistakes.com/
This is true, we are to be intolerant of pagan idols and the religions of gentiles. We were commanded to go into the land and destroy their alters and gods. It is okay to destroy the new testament. That said however, I wouldn’t condone it as I disapprove of book burnings, etc. However, in the Land of Israel Christians do not have the right to impose their religion on Jews and expect us not to react. This is the Jewish homeland, not the Christian homeland.
Ken, You are stating that one is holy and one is not. According to what? According to who? Your beliefs? Why should anyone respect your position when you will not respect others? I am not talking about embracing the religion of others, but merely having some respect. This is a man who is an elected representative of a country that alleges that to be the only democracy in the area. While I do acknowledge that in a democratic society some unpleasantness must be endured. But what the man did is something that serves no other purpose than to cause strife and division. How is this different from someone calling you something unpleasant. Your position smacks of supremacy?
Ken to clarify an earlier point. Yes he does have the right to dispose of anything as he chooses, so long as it is legal. And people have the right to condemn him for his actions. I have read up on this guy, and he seems like the Israeli version of David Duke. The real problem is that many will take this as an official position of Jewish People.
Shalom.
Russ
The official position of the Jewish people is the rejection of the new testament. This man demonstrated it. The person who sent it to him never asked if he wanted it sent. Had he asked for it to be sent then he would be wrong to tear it up.
It was an intrusion on his faith to find it in his private mailbox.
Russ,
I think the politician had a right to tear up the New Testament, but it does not help in any way. He could have quietly thrown it away. I don’t burn New Testaments or tear them up. If I got one in the mail, I would throw it away.
The people who sent it to him were antagonizing him. If an Orthodox Jew wants a New Testament, he or she can go to a library, a book store, or read it on the internet. The senders were bothering him by mailing it to him, so he responded by antagonizing the senders.
You ignored what I said about the TOrah saying to kill idol worshipers and destroying idols. If you were there when Moses said it, would you have said “let’s treat the idol worshipers with respect”? You would have agreed with him or you would have been killed for speaking out against him when he was speaking for G-d. YOu did not mention this in your answer because the Torah does not agree with you.
HOw do I decide if the New Testament is holy or not? The same way you decided it is holy or not. I have my own opinion based on what I think is the truth.
Kenneth Greifer
http://www.messianicmistakes.com/
Kenneth, an individual has a right to do whatever he wishes with his own property, such as an unwanted gift that he been given to you. However this is different because this was a member of the government being sent a gift by a group of citizens, not in order to missionize, but to promote the understanding of their minority faith among their elected representatives. The very decision to rip-up the book on camera and send it to the press demonstrates that minority faith groups in Israel do indeed need to work hard to promote understanding of what they believe to elected members of their government.
So Kenneth, you want to kill me as an idol worshipper now? or do you disagree with Moishe?
Gev,
Which religion are you saying is a minority religion in Israel? THe giant religion called Christianity or the tiny Christian group called “Messianic Judaism”? You must be kidding that they were just trying to educate people about their group. Since the same New Testament is used by both groups, how would it educate the politicians about Messianic Judaism compared to Christianity, and do you really expect politicians to read every religion’s bible to understand their basic beliefs? THey could have just send a brief explanation of their beliefs which are very similar to the well-known beliefs of Christianity, except some Messianic Jews keep some of the rules of the Torah too.
You are trying to force people to accept your beliefs as legitimate, instead of letting them have the freedom to decide what they want about your religious beliefs. Even politicians should be treated respectfully, and since he is a very religious Jewish man, they should have respected his dislike of the NEw Testament which he is entitled to have.
Gev, you believe in the New Testament because the Hebrew Bible is screwed up right now, so I can’t blame you because your beliefs are based on mistakes that are not your fault. Even though your beliefs are evil, your intent is not.THe HEbrew Bible is the problem and Jewish tradition is actually the best thing for your side. Someday, you guys will probably get many more Jewish followers, but based on these mistakes.
Kenneth Greifer
http://www.messianicmistakes.com/
Oh Kenneth, please don’t tell me this is yet another extended ad for your book
Gev,
Isn’t it funny that you don’t mind that people send out free copies of the New Testament which is a book that teaches certain religious beliefs, but you mind if I promote my free book that is also about religion and how the HEbrew Bible should be understood?
The people who sent the politicians those books are just like me, except they have a different goal. I am not charging anyone money and I sincerely believe in what I am doing just like them. Why is what I do irritating to you, but you can’t see how it can irritate people to constantly be bombarded by Christians promoting their books, etc., by mail and every other means of promotion?
Shouldn’t you say that even Christians with “good intentions” can bother people with their constant promotion of their religious beliefs? If I sent you free copies of my book by mail, would you tear it up after a while in front of TV cameras just to make the point clear to me?
Kenneth Greifer
Kenneth I haven’t virtually ripped up your comment for all to see have I, it is still here for all to see!
I am not irritated, simply amused that you never miss a change to promote your book and all you indignation about this Bible in Hebrew just led up to another promo op for you
Kenneth, I would not destroy it, probably take it to a charity shop or give to a Catholic friend.
You gonna justify Mediaeval Christian burning of Talmuds, that American pastor burning a Koran, or Muslim desecration of Jewish holy sites? We all need to interpret the exclusivist claims of of faiths in ways that exclude violent behaviour.
Gev, Hope you are well. This is inresponse to your reply to Kenneth and your statement. I got a copy of the New Testament and read it. Nowhere in there did I find anything that condones that activities listed above by Gev, such as desicration of holy sites or burning the Talmud. No where did I find anything that would Justify any type of violence to anyone, especially Jews. It would seem to me that anti-semitism and the disrespect of Judaism is entirely anti-thetical to Christianity. Nowhere do I see those types of actions Justified. But it would seem that a dishonest or corrupt person, looking for justification (and what higher justification is there than G-d) to condone the evil that exists in their own heart would use the bible to Justify their actions.
Once again Good Shabbos and Shalom to all.
His justification for tearing it up is because it’s viewed as a source of persecution and antisemitism. This is true, millions of Jews have been persecuted because of this book.
Leah, I hope you are well. I would reject your argument. I will accept the fact that many people used it as justification. How does the old saying go, G-d created man in his image and then man returned the favor. You once told me in another exchange that you know more about Christianity than most Christians. Can you show me anywhere in the New Testament where anti-semitism is taught, tolerated, or condoned? I have read it and cannot find it. Shalom to everyone.
I am sure you do not interpret the new testament in the way others have but these are just a few of the verses that have often been used against us and still are:
Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Matthew 27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children. (this verse was the basis of Hitler’s claim he was working in accordance to G-d’s will)
Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Russ, it wasn’t my intent to argue that the new testament is antisemitic. It was, as hyechiel pointed out, my response to the question. I am only showing the verses that have been used against the Jews. Whether or not they are antisemitic isn’t the point. The point is that they are misconstrued as cause for Christians to persecute Jews. It is also true, as hyechiel said, that verses were inserted. The interpretations as a case against the Jews were further advanced by Martin Luther.
Leah,
Thanks for the reply. I will look up those verses. It will take a day or two to get back to you. You are right about Luther, and many other leaders. I would like to say the treatment of Jews by the Church was a tragedy, but that is not the right word. Horrible Crime might describe it better. It would seem to me these horrible things would not have happened if they would have lived it and not used it as a justification.
To Hychiel. I will read the verses listed by Leah and get back to you on those.
Shalom to all.
Russ
Appreciated Russ, good discussion. You might also look into the Nicean Council and the many synods where doctrine was established, typically politically motivated. Many of the doctrines of modern Christianity have no basis in the Bible.
Off to work now.
“MK Ben-Ari’s extremist views and actions are outrageous,” said AJC Executive Director David Harris. “The photograph of MK Ben-Ari tearing up the Christian Bible, holy to many around the world, is a sacrilegious outrage, an abominable assault on an entire religion.”
Ben-Ari has a long record of open hostility towards Israel’s Arab citizens, and has been barred from visiting the U.S., his country of birth, due to his association with the extremist Kach movement, banned in Israel.
PR Newswire (http://s.tt/1ifPR)
Ken. Thanks for your response. I have not looked up the references that you have cited. Since there is quite a bit to the Torah, it may take me a while, but I will try to find the parts you reference. As I am not Jewish, and I am just learning of the debate here, I still do not have the knowledge base to respond quickly. I do not know the motive of the person or organization who sent it to him. I will read up on Moses though. I appreciate the response.
Russ
Russ,
Here are two examples: Deuteronomy 12:2-3 and Deuteronomy 13 (all of it).
There are many more.
Kenneth Greifer
It’s good you want to educate yourself. Keep it up!
The new testament is not Torah.
Hey Kenneth, I looked at your website, although I did not have time to check out your book. If you don’t mind, could you give me a little bit about where you are coming from and your study? Just like to have a little primer before I get to it.
Shalom to all.
Russ
Russ,
I think there are a lot of mistakes in the Hebrew Bible that scholars have overlooked and that many quotes are totally misunderstood. Originally, I focused on the Messianic proof quotes in the Hebrew Bible, but then I started looking at many other quotes too, so now the book is about all kinds of quotes.
I am not sure my book is good for you because it is kind of technical and it might not really be fair to you since you are new to these subjects. I think you should first look at regular books about the Messianic proof quotes like the ones written by Dr. Michael Brown, and then look at my ideas, so you at least have a pro-Christian side and a pro-Jewish side to consider. Actually, religious Jewish people won’t like my ideas either because I disagree with the traditional Jewish explanations and translations of many quotes.
Dr. Brown’s books are very thorough and give you all of the usual Christian arguments, but I think they are all wrong, but for different reasons than he discusses in his book. He gives the traditional Jewish objections to the Messianic proof quotes, but I don’t like most of them.
Kenneth Greifer
http://www.messianicmistakes.com/
Of course we would break their statues. We are commanded to.
What statutes are those?
coming soon! Yad Lachim’s new Origami division! we make artistic paper models out of Christian bibles to sell so we can show how evil missionaries are and how they should be worshipping the Chabad Rebbi dude instead!!
Maz, why do you have to be so insulting to Jews who don’t want your religion? Don’t you get it? We don’t want you shoving your new testament down our throats! We don’t want to follow your messiah! Why is that so hard for you to live with?
Im only insulting to creepy organizations that spy on Messianic Jews. Mwah hahah
if you don’t want anything to do with us, why do you keep coming back? Dont you get it, why is that hard to figure out
P
With that kind of reasoning Maz then lets take the gloves off and I’ll be insulting to “creepy” Messianic organizations that prey on Jews for conversion. If it wasn’t for missionaries (messianic and christian) who force their bible on us whether we want it or not we wouldn’t need to form organizations to rescue our own. If it wasn’t for missionaries who move into our land for the sole purpose of “bringing us the saving grace of jc” we wouldn’t have to form groups to go out and stop you. Is that hard to understand? Just stop Maz. We are not your life’s mission!
The impression I got as a kid at a religious school was that Jesus, his fans, his disciples and his family were all Jews and that when Jesus rebuked priests as ”liers” and ”sons of the devil ”and so on it was because he felt that they were following the letter of the law but forgetting the spirit of it. Reading the words today from a Jewish perspective I can see how it sounds anti-Semitic but when you learn the gospel stories as a kid , the overall effect is to impress upon you a story about a hippy who says to love everybody , even your enemies. Its sad that Jews come away from the gospels feeling that its really all about ”the Jews”.
I have a question for anyone who would like to comment. Jesus referred to religious leaders as vipers and sons of the devil, and various other derogatory phrases. I have read that at the time this occurred, many in the religious power structure were corrupt (similar to the Catholic Church several centuries later) and additionally, had to be approved by the Roman authorities. Does anyone know if this is historically accurate? I think whether or not it is true would shed a great deal of light as to context. Thanks and Shalom. Russ
He was a fool. He makes religious Jews look like the Taliban, and Israel a bigoted, intolerant society. And Judaism no different than militant Islam. So when some stupid person decides to burn the Talmud, the Tenach, a Torah Scroll, – which in this crazy world is very likely, – he can say nothing. It is so silly really, all he should have done is throw it away, send it back-return to sender. Done all the time by intelligent people who want to respect others enough though disagree completely with them. I do it with all the Chabad literature I get through my door, not to mention the door knockers.
Im only insulting to creepy organizations that spy on Messianic Jews. Mwah hahah
if you don’t want anything to do with us, why do you keep coming back? Dont you get it, why is that hard to figure out
When you stop sneaking into Israel and pretending that your beliefs are Jewish; we will
stop coming in here!!
bubby and Leah8,
so how is Yad Lachim these days? do they pay you well, give you much holiday? Excursions to China sound like a nice perk. Say hi to Binyamin for me.
lolol so Yad L’achim pays well? you must be one paranoid dude to think
that anyone who tells you the truth works for Yad L’achim. Thanks for the tip.
Maybe Leah and I will consider looking at new career paths since you made it sound so wonderful
“you must be one paranoid dude to think that anyone who tells you the truth works for Yad L’achim”.
Now THERE’S an admission! LOL At last Bubby has said something I can agree with. Though why she should would think it would make anyone paranoid to believe that YLA don’t possess an individual capable of telling the truth… But “thanks for the tip” anyway. Definitely one for my quotes collection.
PS I get more fliers through my door about fast food than religious literature.
Do you think we should set up a group for Jews against non-kosher pizza?
you try to make light of the fact that christians spend millions to convert Jews
and steal them away from Torah to worship an idol. I am sure that is part
of your defense mechanism since you feel rejected.
found it. Your very first statement of fact……unproven but cited here as true. I was just answering you….I said it was rubbish and asked for evidence for this…. your quote…”of the fact that christians spend millions to convert Jews and steal them away from Torah”
You upped it later to billions…..”billions is more in line with the facts though” but sited no source. Anyway, really boring topic but I do like facts when claiming truth and I still think it is rubbish. There are far more important things for Christians to spend their money on. So no evidence or source just speculation and words will have to do…….
Having lived in two of the three great pizza cities in the world, lets not dis non-kosher pizza, Maz. No offense, but Chicago and New York have Jerusalem and Tel Aviv beat in the pizza department.
Yechiel,
You are not the only one who has had one of those uncomfortable moments. You had the one eye one horn variety. A friend took me to temple with him once on Rosh Shoshona eve (sp?) After the service, he introduced me to the Rabbi, who was smiling until introduced to me. The facial expression went from smiling to “I just stepped in something repulsive” and was very hesitant to even shake my hand. I was told later that due to my heritage, i did not look Jewish, I look more like my Scandinavian ancestors. My question is this: What will it take to make people see each other as human being, and not just different? Am I any less of a human being because I am not Jewish? (Although I could be because my grandmother was raised in an orphanage in NY). Is there something in Jewish law that says a Rabbi cannot shake hands with a goy in a synagogue?
Shalom to all
Russ
PS it was a reformed Rabbi if that makes a difference.
what passages did your minister friend not like?
Bubby, Christians have a gazillion dollars to spend on converting Jews, hmm, yeah you are kinda right.
however your black and white thinking is that Israel has a more simple structured idea of whose a religious Jew and whose not.
My observations are that many people flaunt with many different belief systems.contrary to Judaism as people are searching for something and not finding something to fill the hole.
Much of Israel is Jewish, but much is a bit of everything else. The glass panels around the security section of Tel Aviv airport have astrology signs on them which you and I know is forbidden by torah. Many mainstream pop music in Israel has elements of new age and Buddhism in it. David Ben Gurion had some interest in Buddhism at some point sad to say. Many Messianic Jews I know turned full circle from Jewish upbringing, rebelling against family by joining what ever was the new age latest thing, to being delivered at finding Jesus as their Lord and saviour and thus rediscovering their Jewishness.
So you, me and everyone else are religious salesman of some kind regardless of how much you shout and scream at everyone against your idealogies
astrology is fortune telling which is expressly forbidden by torah. I think theres other passages on this I will find later.
Deuteronomy 18:9-14
New International Version (NIV)
Occult Practices
9 When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. 10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord; because of these same detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you. 13 You must be blameless before the Lord your God.
The Prophet
14 The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the Lord your God has not permitted you to do so.
Everyone,
This is not a reply, but something I saw on the net this morning I thought that you might be interested in. A little divine justice? Maybe. But an interesting read. Let me know your opinions.
http://news.yahoo.com/hungary-far-leader-discovers-jewish-roots-155354165.html
Thanks and shalom.
Russ
Very common story. I heard Rabbi Pash from Poland speak on Arutz Radio a few years ago after some hidden Jews who were raised Catholic discovered their past. There was a wonderful homecoming for them in Israel. Rabbi Pash spoke about how often young people come to him sensing something deep inside, a feeling they might be Jewish. He said “now is the time of the awakening of the Jewish soul arise, arise and return!” I identify very much with this experience as I too discovered a hidden Jewish past I didn’t know about. It was an awakening of my soul I can’t explain. I returned according to Halacha and want to see others find their way back. It grieves me when they get caught up in the messianic movement. From where I stand now it’s as if they have their hands out ready to snatch them back! The Amalekites have never left us. This happened to me as I was seeking a path of return.
Leah,
Good to hear from you. This guy was not a messianic. He was a virulent anti-Semite who accused Jews of all kinds of foul things who found out ooops. I am one of them. It reminds me of a movie that came out about ten years ago starring Robert Duval and James Earl Jones. Duval was a redneck who did not like black people and then found out he was black.
Shalom to all.
Russ
I’d love to stay and visit more Russ but I’ve been putting in lots of OT at the office (thankful for the job!) – gotta run.
[....of your defense mechanism since you feel rejected.]
I don’t feel rejected as if you put your faith in people, you will always be disappointed. I know my Lord and savior loves me, you and everyone else.
The myth of billions/gazilion dollars Christians spend in order to ‘convert’ Jews is rubbish. Who has gazillions of dollars…the Christians? Yeah really. And are the majority of Christians are so obsessed with Jews? No, not at all. The majority would not care a toss.
actually don, the statistics and facts prove your comments to be wrong.
billion is not gazillions. billions is more in line with the facts though.
Prove it. Where is the evidence, statistics and facts you have?? Where do they come from? Cite them page and paragraph, name and source. Specifically.
Prove it. Where is the evidence, statistics and facts you have?? Where do they come from? Cite them page and paragraph, name and source. Specifically.
No Don, you prove you were the one that made a ridiculous false statement.
Now prove that its “rubbish” as you clearly stated.
You are afraid or can’t find the evidence you need to prove it. Asking me is a diversion. Thanks, I thought it would be like this. I hear such hype all the time it makes me think you guys think the world is black or white and no one can think for themselves.
Excellent link, thanks for sharing! I shall refer to it often. I have known this for a long time and it sickens me the way they target Jews!
Rick Ross, ah him!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Ross_%28consultant%29
yep not sketchy at all!
Two wrongs often do make a right, especially in this world, sadly. Logic would require respect of all holy books , and receiving a holy book is not wrong, The New Testament has more historic connection to the Land of Israel than anywhere else ( and in this case I think it was the whole Bible/Tenach that was sent). Reading a holy book is not wrong either and no one was compelled to read it or even keep it. No harassment or inference at all, it was just a book mailed, he himself made a spectacle out of it by his public act. Simply the man’s hatred and prejudice overcame him. No one is really hurt here It is much too much fuss about something so small.
Don, there is much hurt here. Its a campaign to convert Jews. Why else would anyone target Jews for a mass mailing of the new testament knowing full well we reject it? It’s forcing your religion on us. No one asked for the new testament. It was sent unsolicited and to most Jews it’s offensive. I tear up offensive, unwanted mail. I would not have torn up the new testament. I would have thrown it in the recycle bin.
It’s a bunch of Bibles- whole Bibles- sent to Israeli leaders. No mass mailing or coersion, no need to even read the book itself. In political circles you say thank you but no thanks, return it, give it away, or throw it unseen. No one is afraid of a book, no one can ‘convert’ anyone. You give no one any credit for being intelligent. I was given a Koran once by a well meaning Muslim, did I get paranoia? Did reading a few lines harm me? Nope, was I converted by it’s very touch? No. Okay I get the NT is the bogey man to most people like you, offensive and ugly , it cannot even be read with respect. Nothing doing ……but plenty of Jews can and do and still manage to be Jews. The hurt? That guy, the one who ripped it to threads is an extremist even within Judaism. He hurt himself, and the only others on this site who rant and rave about this are either professional anti missionary types or converts to Judaism proving their metal……..
I’m against book burnings and destroying written works. However, it was a protest. The books were sent as a targeted campaign to reach Jews with the word of JC. Don’t send us this stuff! Don’t you get it? After 2000 years we’re tired of being targets for conversion. This guy was a little more than fed up and made his point.
GOD commanded Moses to speak to a (second) stone to bring out forth its water. Instead, he struck it, just like what he did to the first stone. The event caused the displeasure of his GOD that he was not permitted to enter the Land, although he was the supposed to be quintessential follower of Torah. The lesson to be learned in that story is: even though you follow all of the Torah but given the chance, you’ve disobeyed even once or did not take heed to the Voice, to the Word of GOD that tells you to love your GOD with all your heart, soul and strength and to love your neighbor as you love yourself, YOU ARE NOTHING. If you totally love GOD and since the Name is even written in the pages of that book, the NT, you should have not done that. You also show how the other group should treat your things… Sometimes, it’s “eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth” (another way of saying, “do unto others what you want others do to you”, a good eye for a good eye and a good tooth for a good tooth). Love and treat others well so that others will treat you as well, the way you treat and love them (in the first place).
The way we are commanded to destroy the idols of the goyim in Moses’ time is in the context that they are at war with those goyim. A collective action. Israel is not at war at them right now, theocratically (no, Israel is not a theocratic state NOW) neither democratically (more so). His action is out of context and shows extremism, which Solomon might deplore if he is the King of Israel now. He lacks wisdom and tact. That is NOT CHESED. He disobeyed GOD.
What does Chesed mean?
GOD is Chesed… He is Love, Loving-kindness, Kindness. Is it not the message of the NT?
so let me get this straight. G-d is G-d, HaShem, AND Chesed? Are there anymore names? Good question, is that the central theme of the NT?
Chesed means “loving kindness”.
The central theme of the NT is not HaShems loving-kindness. It’s about jc being a human sin sacrifice. This concept has no place in Torah.
Gev, Joseph, Leah, and Kenneth, A little help please for an ignorant goy who would like to learn. Have you heard of something called the Mishna? If so, can you tell me what it is, if it is published in English, and where I might get a copy?
Thanks.
Shalom and Good Shabbos to all.
Russ
It’s the “written oral law”. I could try to write a long explanation on it but the Jewish Virtual Library will not only tell you about Mishna, you can learn a lot about Judaism here http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/talmud_&_mishna.html
Anyone here who justifies the action of the MK is nothing but a pure bigot. I don’t know what is going on with you, people. You’re too hooked with extremism, anything that bash the Christians and elevate the status of Judaism, being the aggrieved or whatever, is nothing but bigotry. And I believed here that you, yourself(selves) are nothing but hate in your heart(s). You have nothing left but to come here in this website instead of praying and have a self evaluation of your thoughts and motives. You may not have realized the spirit of Judaism yourself(selves). So better be silent and go back to GOD and ask Him to purify your mind(s) and heart(s).
“It is an honour for a man to keep aloof from strife; but every fool will be snarling.” Proverbs 20:3 JPS 1917
Classic Christian response goyish! We Jews don’t know the heart of Torah, only you Christians do through jesus christ your lord. We’re living the letter of the law with hearts of stone and stiff necks. It’s your god given mission to lead us to jc.
Here’s a newsflash goyish: we Jews have it right. It’s you Christians who are mixed up and don’t understand what it means to follow “The One True G-d of Israel”. Instead you follow a god who is like the gods of all the pagan religions: born of a union between a god and a woman, a demigod half man half god, resurrected from the dead……
Thanks! I won’t argue with you anymore.
“And He said: ‘Go, and tell this people: hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they, seeing with their eyes, and hearing with their ears, and understanding with their heart, RETURN, and be healed.’”
Isaiah 6:9-10 JPS 1917
I am actually listening to Hallelujah Chorus the moment I am typing these words… BTW, G. F. Handel’s family WERE Jewish before becoming Christians.
You are always coming across as a person who hates Jews and targets them for conversion. If we’re christian you might be willing to put up with us.
It’s obvious you have little grasp of the Hebrew scriptures.
If you knew ONE thing about the Jews and European history you’d know that Jews did not convert to Christianity because they believed in jc or had an “eye opening” experience. They converted for 2 reasons: 1, forced conversions upon threat of death. 2, advantages in society. Secretly they still maintained their Jewish identity.
leah8, I don’t hate Jews. For me, it is so unnatural. Actually, if it is wrong to hate Jews on the grounds that you are hating GOD, it might be as well wrong if we hate other people. If you find me hateful of Jews, which my self is oblivious of, then I am sorry for that.
As for my less knowledge of the Hebrew Bible, thank yo for that. I will try to learn more. What is important is that I practice what I am learning, in my actual life. I don’t go to a church and flaunt that I am a Christian and become supercessionist. While some people, though not a Jew by birth, never experience the ordeals real Jews experience in the past, go to synagogues and by facade, because perhaps they have a repressed insecurity that actually they are not really Jews, go at extremes and live lives of display. They think that bashing Yeshua and His believers and everything about the “NT” would make them look authentically Jewish. Hohohoho! Pathetic fools. Come on, focus now to Judaism and don’t look back. What “The One True G-d of Israel” deserves is more than that. He does not want that you guys focus on elevating only your Jewishness and your Judaism but on real worship in “Spirit and in Truth” and live a CHANGED LIFE (even without your neighbors’ or rabbis’ knowledge that you are Jews, or be cocky that you are one or loud of being one).
Oh, I sounded very much like a candy-cloud, love-your-neighbor-hippie-Christian. Well, I am proud to be one! Thank you JESUS CHRIST!
You sound like a hippy. Right On! Good philosphy, never be afraid to learn and use (do) what you learn. I actually can’t agree with your mantra – “Each religion has the correct way”‘ sort of a……all mountains lead to Muhamed proverb, I don’t see how you can think so, especially after comparing the main literature of many. I guess, if you view the religions of this world as all different versions leading to the same path , then it would make sense, but then one thing begs an answer, the end, the arrival of the soul to it’s destination, What would be there? Budda? Moses? Krishna? Mohamed? Christ? All the Hindu gods? Enlightenment? There is no logic to your mantra, unless of course their is different destinations for all the different groups……Then it makes sense. You don’t have to answer, am just thinking out loud. Interesting
No hope of a sensible conversion….Opps…must not, conversation was the word. You can repeat yourself a thousand but still get thrown the old stables as rational and paranoia, I mean this is a big world and not every one thinks the same. Da ya think that visiting this site destroys the brain somewhat?
Sometimes, I find commenting in the threads, foolish, in general. People might find your points, pointless, which should be understandable. We have different views and experiences. On the other hand, reading some people’s good points helps a lot, especially if one is “filter-minded” or loosely, if one is open minded (without filtering and a great lot for gullible blokes). I learned and enjoyed visiting this website, nevertheless.
Dear goyishyehudim;
If you are a goy, you are not Jewish. Two different theologies.
Many “Goyiim” are coming to Torah, as Christians who have learned what Jesus taught-Torah- and try to live the life he taught, Noahides, who follow the 7 Laws of Noah (Google Noahide), or they have a “Jewish” spark in them, and recognize it. Many have become converts to His Way. Once they “convert”, they are as Jewish as one born by a Jewish Mother.
We have Torah, because HaShem requires it of us. Our Choosenness is a job, not a priviledge.
Judaism to bring Torah to humanity, Christianity to (eventually) bring humanity to Torah [In that day, all the nations of the world shall worship HaShem at the Holy Temple.] But, first, you have to know the true G-d; he is not human in anyway!
Shalom;
Yechiel
I suppose tearing the good book up is actually a step up from the other hateful ideas and teachings by men like this…I.e. sending Jesus to hell and boiling him in hot excrement for eternity, calling him the bastard child of a Roman soldier, and cursing his mother Mary a filthy traitor and whore, as is written in the Talmud, right?
Dear JDee
Please either provide the exact Talmudic references for those claims, with sources, or kindly take your anti-Semitic libels elsewhere.
Thanks.
Dov,
Sanhedrin 106a says Jesus’ mother was a whore: “She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters.”
In the Talmud, ignominious names are given by the rabbis to Mary and the Son. Mary/Miriam is called “Charia” which means dung or excrement. Jesus/Yeshua is called “Jeschu” which means “May his name and memory be blotted out.” I don’t remember the exact references for these. Sorry.
I’m not anti-Semitic. Just providing information here.
It seems that while chapter and verse are not quoted, you do have something of an answer Dov. Are these things true? If so, you owe JDee an apology for use of the term Anti-Semitic libel. If it is not true, can you please refute it? Are there things in the Talmud which contradict what is being alleged here?
Shalom to all.
Russ
If and when JDee can substantiate in full, with references, I will withdraw and apologise. In any event, the use of the term “men like this” is very unhelpful as it draws a straight line from the writers of the Talmud to today’s ultra-Orthodox MKs.
I would say that is a good offer. As to the statement “men like this” you may be right. But lets be honest, this guy is an MK. He is smart enough to know what he is doing is going to, or at least has the chance to, incite bad blood between two groups. Groups that seem to be beginning to come together, at least in terms of mutual respect, after thousands of years of animosity. I find it interesting that the biggest supporters of Israel in the US are evangelical Christians.
Here a link to Sanhedrin 106a – read it but couldn’t find the reference Mary is talking about??
http://www.dafyomi.org/index.php?masechta=sanhedrin&daf=106a&go=Go
Admit i read it pretty quickly so might have missed it?
Meant Alice not Mary – Haha freudian slip mebe
See my comment on this here:
http://biblicalanthropology.blogspot.com/2012/08/member-of-israeli-parliament-destroys.html
See this: http://jandyongenesis.blogspot.com/2012/05/was-earth-repopulated-after-noahs-flood.html
Excellent posts hyechiel and all very true. I’m enjoying following them.
Yechiel,
why do you think the gospels are pagan?
I know hechiel will have better answer for this and I don’t really have much time now but if you study early church history you’ll see that most of the Christian doctrine was formed by the Greeks and Romans whose cultures were steeped in paganism. Demons are rooted in pagan culture for one thing. Look at the history of Paul who is famed for writing most of the apostolic writings, he was a hellenist http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13232-saul-of-tarsus
Micah 5:1 – But thou, Beth-lehem Ephrathah, which art little to be among the thousands of Judah, out of thee shall one come forth unto Me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth are from of old, from ancient days.
Psalm 2:7 – I will tell of the decree: HaShem said unto me: ‘Thou art My son, this day have I begotten thee.
Isaiah 7:14 – Therefore the L-rd Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isaiah 9:6 – For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom; (Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.)
Zechariah 12:10 – And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto Me because they have thrust him through; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born.
Isaiah 53
1 ‘Who would have believed our report? And to whom hath the arm of HaShem been revealed?
2 For he shot up right forth as a sapling, and as a root out of a dry ground; he had no form nor comeliness, that we should look upon him, nor beauty that we should delight in him.
3 He was despised, and forsaken of men, a man of pains, and acquainted with disease, and as one from whom men hide their face: he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely our diseases he did bear, and our pains he carried; whereas we did esteem him stricken, smitten of G-d, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed.
6 All we like sheep did go astray, we turned every one to his own way; and HaShem hath made to light on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, though he humbled himself and opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before her shearers is dumb; yea, he opened not his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away, and with his generation who did reason? for he was cut off out of the land of the living, for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due.
9 And they made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich his tomb; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.’
10 Yet it pleased HaShem to crush him by disease; to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and that the purpose of HaShem might prosper by his hand:
11 Of the travail of his soul he shall see to the full, even My servant, who by his knowledge did justify the Righteous One to the many, and their iniquities he did bear.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion among the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty; because he bared his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
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