About

The Rosh Pina Project is a blogging collective and online meeting place for Messianic Jews and all those who believe that Messianic Jews deserve fair treatment in Israel and the Diaspora, and protection as a religious minority in Israel. Bloggers and others in this collective are affiliated with the Messianic Jewish community. The Rosh Pina Project will be highlighting any unfair treatment of Messianic Jews in Israel, in the mainstream media, post-cultural and political reviews and whatever else we find interesting and even funny. We will also often find ourselves to be dissident voices within the Messianic world as we will not gloss over things we disagree with simply because it comes from people within our own faith community. We have no sacred cows and will discuss pretty much anything whilst at the same time not seeking to be unnecessarily offensive, even if our willingness to challenge ideas and behaviours we think are not the best for our community will offend some.

615 thoughts on “About

  1. Pingback: Introducing the Rosh Pina Project | The Church of Jesus Christ

  2. Wow… though it sounds noble, seems to me you’re like the disciples struggling on the sea of Galilee against the wind and the waves, when what you really need is the Lord to simply say ‘Peace be still’

  3. Hey folks,

    Just want to say that I support the work you are doing. Back in 2008 I wrote the Jewcy article on the mistreatment of MJ in Israel. The goal was to help raise awareness and get a constructive debate going. I hope that it helped create some positive change. In the next few days I will link and reference your blog on my blog.

    All the best,

    Roi

  4. The problem reverts to the existential issue that there is no such thing as a “Messianic Jew”. You people are Christians who like to speak some Hebrew and follow some traditional Jewish practices.

    However, Judaism is very clear that there is no belief in Jesus. Thus, if you believe that Christ is/was the messiah, then you are a Christian.

    We Jews are offended that anybody would try to convert us. Messianic Jews are simply evangelical Christians by another name, and your goal is to commit religious genocide. Sounds really mean, but it’s the truth. The absolute total blissful goal you have is to get all of us Jews to believe in Jesus, right?

    That’s why we don’t think you are evil and full of hatred and intolerance, we know it.

    If you love us, the leave our religious beliefs alone.
    If you are tolerant, then prove it by not preaching the gospel to us.
    If you respect us, then you MUST respect our religious beliefs.

    However, the goal of “Messianic Jews” is to convert Jews to Christianity.

    That’s why you are hated and despised, because you really are not full of love and respect for us.

    Joe

    • Should we love you enough to die in your sins? Joseph, when you ask God to show you who the Messiah is instead of following tradition, He will show you.

      Only Talmudic Judaism is “clear” that Jesus is not the messiah. Read the Holy Scriptures for yourself, PRAYERFULLY, and you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.

      Yeshua is a “son of Israel” who observed the Law perfectly.

    • Respect is a two-way street, friend! Some people believe that Yeshua is the fulfillment of Judaism and that they are obligated to tell everyone. Are their religious beliefs inferior?

      You don’t have to convert. You don’t even have to listen. But everyone has the right to speak about what they believe.

      • Respect includes not dressing up to look Jewish when you aren’t. Sure, peeople have the right to believe whatever they want, and to tell others what they believe, and people have the right to listen or not. But fraud is fraud, and that’s the objection.

      • Mark P. what if Jewish Christians sincerely believe they are in fact true Christians and true Jews both by ancestry and and by religion? Unless one owns a patent or copyright on the term “J-E-W”, Christian Jews are at liberty to self-identify, as Jews who reject Jesus Christ as Israel’s Messiah.

      • Christian Jews are at liberty to self-identify, as Jews who reject Jesus Christ as Israel’s Messiah.

        Should be

        Christian Jews are at liberty to self-identify, as [are] Jews who reject Jesus Christ as Israel’s Messiah.

      • Using that logic we can obviously conclude that “some people believe that sex with children is the fulfillment of the child’s human sexuality and that they are entitled to do it with adults.”
        We call them perverts. We do not allow them to spread their evil, and they do not have the right to speak what they believe.

        HRWilliams is just another blind Christian pretending that there is no offense when Christians try to subvert another person’s beliefs. And when we take offense, they tell us they “love” us and they are just expressing their “freedom of religion” to try and deny us our own.

        If Christians have no respect for Jews and hide behind a false label of “Messianic Jew”, they are on a one-way street.

      • Joe,

        You’ve left some very incisive comments here, and I’m enjoying your postings.

        It’s a pity that Ken is not motivated by logic. Irrational anti-Semitism is all that propels him. Of course, he calls it his “Christian love”. Because of people like him, we need laws and prisons. There’s no reasoning with Ken.

      • A thoughtful post, Joe ben.

        ///Using that logic we can obviously conclude that “some people believe that sex with children is the fulfillment of the child’s human sexuality and tht they are entitled to do it with adults.”

        Belief is a human right. So what? Yes, they believe false things. As long as their false beliefs do not lead to false behavior, they have a basic human right to believe what they will… and a basic human right to attempt to persuade others that their beliefs are correct. I welcome dialog with false beliefs in order to convert them to correct beliefs.

        …We call them perverts. We do not allow them to spread their evil, and they do not have the right to speak what they believe.

        We have the right to call them perverts and they have the right to call us whatever. So what? That is exactly what freedom of speech requires. They DO have the right to speak what they believe… truthful or false. That is not for gov’t to decide.

        ===HRWilliams is just another blind Christian pretending that there is no offense when Christians try to subvert another person’s beliefs.

        Subvert? Or enlighten? I think very much more the latter than the former. As for offensive, so what? That is exactly the price one pays for freedom of speech.

        ===And when we take offense, they tell us they “love” us and they are just expressing their “freedom of religion” to try and deny us our own.

        No one is denying you your freedom of speech. If some tries let me know and I will protect on your behalf… as I have done against Arab and Moslem nations that deny Jews and Christians equal freedoms… and as I have done against the old Soviet bloc for the same reason.

        ===If Christians have no respect for Jews and hide behind a false label of “Messianic Jew”, they are on a one-way street.

        Huh? This is what is sometimes called a strawman arguement. Try to create a phoney argument and refute it instead of dealing with the real issue. In this case Christians disagree with Joe Ben and he supposes disagreement is disrespect. The rest of the argument fails on its own.

        === on a one-way street.
        If you don’t like the way Jews who believe the Name of the Jewish Messiah is Jesus (Yeshua) drive in Israel, then get of the sidewalk! :-)

        • Deuteronomy XIII. Either you accept the Hebrew Bible ie.Tanach or you don’t.
          I should seek to kill you except later Halakah says “the law of the land is the law”
          But if I were a true Reform Jew, I would reject the oral law, and only follow the “ethical” Biblical halachot, and dealing with idolater and false prophets is a matter of ethics, as well as national survival, so then I would be back to needing to kill you. CF Parsha Pincus….Just pondering What would Moses say?

      • What an excellent example of parapraxis.

        Ken, I do not find it strange at all that you describe the behavior of your fellow messianic Christians as akin to driving their car on the sidewalk and demanding that people get out of their way if they don’t like it.

        I accept your description, and it is obvious to any rational human being that the danger to humanity is the person behind the wheel.

      • You ignore the meat of my response to you and focus only upon the comic relief? Okay, sure.

        Now have you any additional comments… say about this:

        ///Using that logic we can obviously conclude that “some people believe that sex with children is the fulfillment of the child’s human sexuality and tht they are entitled to do it with adults.”

        Belief is a human right. So what? Yes, they believe false things. As long as their false beliefs do not lead to false behavior, they have a basic human right to believe what they will… and a basic human right to attempt to persuade others that their beliefs are correct. I welcome dialog with false beliefs in order to convert them to correct beliefs.

        …We call them perverts. We do not allow them to spread their evil, and they do not have the right to speak what they believe.

        We have the right to call them perverts and they have the right to call us whatever. So what? That is exactly what freedom of speech requires. They DO have the right to speak what they believe… truthful or false. That is not for gov’t to decide.

        ===HRWilliams is just another blind Christian pretending that there is no offense when Christians try to subvert another person’s beliefs.

        Subvert? Or enlighten? I think very much more the latter than the former. As for offensive, so what? That is exactly the price one pays for freedom of speech.

        ===And when we take offense, they tell us they “love” us and they are just expressing their “freedom of religion” to try and deny us our own.

        No one is denying you your freedom of speech. If some tries let me know and I will protect on your behalf… as I have done against Arab and Moslem nations that deny Jews and Christians equal freedoms… and as I have done against the old Soviet bloc for the same reason.

        ===If Christians have no respect for Jews and hide behind a false label of “Messianic Jew”, they are on a one-way street.

        Huh? This is what is sometimes called a strawman arguement. Try to create a phoney argument and refute it instead of dealing with the real issue. In this case Christians disagree with Joe Ben and he supposes disagreement is disrespect. The rest of the argument fails on its own.

      • Ms Williams, I absolutely can respect you, even admire you as a righteous gentile among the nations as a but not respect your lack of knowledge and understanding of G-d and Judaism. I would like to encourage you to truly seek after G-d by having the courage to actually learn broadly and deeply from educated Jews. And solely on a personal note, why do so called Messianic Jews never actually keep shabbos, kosher, or follow the family purity laws? And why as a group do they lack even basic knowledge of Jesus, Talmud, Torah? Just for arguments sake, if I was a MJ, I would do everything in my power to keep the mitzvohs just like James, Mary, and the other Jewish followers of Jesus. But in 25 years of searching I have yet to meet an MJ who really practiced his beliefs or even tried to practice his beliefs. I promise I ask these questions as an opened minded person and I would be willing to follow up on them by meeting with competent, well educated MJ’s in my area.
        Shabbot Shalom,
        Moshe Ben Aaron

    • May G_d’s peace be in us, that we may extend His peace to each other. Can’t help replying when I read the various views. Am reminded on the following article which admits the atrocities of of so called Christians against the chosen people and points out how only the Messiah is the Anointed One.

      http://www.moriel.org/Discernment/5Q_2_Jew/01_Intro.html

      If one cares to know whether the Torah is G_d’s instructions for mankind, and whether Jews are the chosen people to be His messengers, then read on, for the early rabbis also have the answer!

    • Dear Joe Ben Avraham,

      It’s always soul-refreshing to hear the truth. Thanks for your post above. I know its over a year old, but it’s still true!

      You’re right. A Messianic Jew is a Christian. And that’s that. The first followers of the alleged Jesus were all Jewish, and they are considered to be the first Christians, although the term wouldn’t be coined for some time.

      What I find offensive about Christians, however they label themselves, is the way they take our Most Holy, G-d-given Scripture and change it; cut parts out, add parts in, and quote phrases and verses out of context.

      Don’t Christians/Messianics realise it is forbidden to change one “jot or tittle ” of the Torah.

      Even Jesus said there was only one G-d, lived as a Jew, and supported Judaism.

      E.G.
      Rich man: “Rabbi, what must I do to merit eternal life?”
      Jesus: “Keep all of G-d’s commandments.”

      Rich man: “Good teacher.”
      Jesus: “Why do you call me good? No one is good but G-d.”

      Thank Our Mighty G-d that he gave us “stiff-necks” or there wouldn’t be a Jew left on the face of the earth G-d forbid, with all the seemingly ‘well-intentioned’ people who would have wiped us out in their Christian zeal.

      And thank G-d for Rabbis like Tovia Singer, who spend their lives going around quoting our Torah and showing what it really means, when you put the verses back into their original context.

      E.G.
      When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.”

      Christians (beginning with Matthew) always leave off the first part of this verse – it doesn’t suit their purposes.

      Don’t tamper with the Word of HaShem!

      • Jesus said ” why call me good only God is good” simply because he could read the heart and mind of the man he was talking with . The man didn’t believe that Jesus was the messiah the son of God. So he picked him up on this. also Jesus came to die for many and he was not to be known as the messiah until he was crucified. As Jesus said when you raise up the son of man, then you will know that i am he (the messiah) so you see all came together in God’s plan and in his way .
        God works in paradox to test not to trick.

      • Gentile christians shot themselves in the foot by dividing and divorcing themselves from the Messianic Jewish church circa 100-400 CE. Cutting themselves off from the root and trunk of the cultivated tree was a huge error!

      • a jew is a jew not matter what. there neshoma will always remain jewish, even if they sadly choose to follow messianic Judaism which is a clear replacement of the torah and the mitzvot given to them, even if they break the chain of command in Yehoshua whereby G-d commands us to obey Moshe, Yehoshua and all the leaders following them. Even if they believe that a man can be G-d and engage in avoda zora. Even if they read the torah in English and don’t know enough Hebrew to know what the “messianic prophecies” really refer to. Even if they’ve lost their connection to the One true G-d of Israel and his ETERNAL covenant and mitzvot. Even then, halachically messianic jews are and will always remain jews if their birth mother is jewish. BUT YES – Messianic “Judaism” could not be further from Judaism if it tried, and is essential christianity with a little bit of jewish seasoning. Just as the karaites abandoned the oral torah and were deemed heretics, so too the messianic jews who claim the new testament supercedes the eternally given brit between Hashem and his people.

    • Wow Joe, Where’s the Love? I understand how you feel as I have studied how horribly the Christians have treated the Jews over the years (1000’s). Please give me a break, I was not among them and your predjudice is reaking with hatred. Certianly you know that hatred is not from Elohim? At least those who are becomming of the importance of the Jew in the eyes of God are calling themselves something other than Christians (MJ). My self personally, I do not know what to call my self. I love the Jew. If it were not for them (you) I would not even know of a Messiah. The Messiah is Jewish and according to the scripture I have been grafted into the tree which mmakes me part of the Roots. The Roots are Jewish without the Jew the Gentiles would never have know of the exsistence of the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. So personally I thank you from the bottom of my heart. I learned of the truth about the Messiah from the Torah. Moses wrote of him long before he arrived so that the Jew would have the proof that they would require in order to accept Him, yet most did not. I do not want to convert you my brother, I want to join you, in honoring Elohim with the Love of his choosen people and the Messiah in which he clearly said that you may not enter into the kingdom of Heaven is you do not except him. Don’t hate us brother, embrase us, we too are from the seed of Abraham grafted into the family of Elohim, adopted as sons. We mean you no harm, no conversion is necessary, we love you and only wish to be accepted by you and loved by you. We are not against you, we are with you, You not having a relationship with the Messiah is sad to us, not demeanning. We love you.

      • Donny,

        If you really love the Jews, then honor their right to decide whether or not to include you in their family. Just imagine if I showed up at your doorstep claiming I’d been “grafted in” to your family according to my own personal rules of how your family works. Just imagine if I told you that I’d taken your father, grandfather and greatgrandfather to be my own, and that everything they’d taught you was bunk, and that really you ought to accept me as your proper teacher of all that they had wanted conveyed to you. And then imagine that I told you, wierdly, to love me. Because that’s the exact message you’re sending to the Jews, and it’s quite bizarre and unwelcome.

        Real love respects the needs and individuality of the beloved, and does not seek to insinuate and impress itself on the other. So you tell me, Donny: where’s the love?

      • Donny Hakes, If you love God you must love God’s chosen people. You ask how to do this as a Christian. Pray for the Jewish people and the State of Israel.
        Associate yourself with Christians who respect Jews and are respected by many Orthodox Jews, Look for the CUFI identity. AS a non Jew (gentile) there is no expectation that you observe 613 mitzvot, seven Noaichde laws are enough. Dayanu!!!!. Your post is three years old, If you are still interested and get this and follow it, the God of Israel will bless you for your efforts. XII:3

        May the Messiah come soon to bring Peace to ALL the children of God.

    • To Joe,

      The problem is actually one of truth, not of labels, tolerance or “genocide.”

      If a man told me 1+1=3, then I am not “intolerant” or “subversive” for telling him he is wrong and should believe correctly that 1+1=2.

      If Jesus is not the messiah, then Christians are heretics who follow a false god. They should be treated like any other apostate, heretic or pagan who tries to convince you that he is right. Rebuke him and show him the error of his ways, that he may repent and believe in the true God.

      If, however, Jesus is the messiah, then you are the heretic who has denied God’s anointed. You would be in that category of apostates, heretics and pagans. In this case, it is you who should be rebuked and should repent and believe in the truth.

      It is one or the other, or neither, but it cannot be both. Those on the wrong side of this equation won’t be able to ask God to tolerate their stiff-necked unbelief.

      This has nothing to do with nationality and everything to do with raw truth. You may have the right to be wrong in the west, but God gives no such rights to people. For the stiff-necked and obstinate unbeliever, there is only judgment.

      George

      • To George:

        I promised I would pray first this morning instead of internetting, but I hope God forgives me for just a short thought. First, I your answer above, the 1 + 1 + thing. I am always surprised that people who would admit your principle in say, program language use, or even cooking, will not admit it in religion. But I wanted to ask you this about what Joe Ben Avraham is saying about Israel: that maybe it should be allowed in principle that some kind of rules apply in a country with a religious state. I myself carry on a small campaign to honor Quas Primas and the reasonable notion that there cannot be separation of Church and state and that no successful state can deny Christ the justice of His centrality (I’m just putting it that way to be as broad as I can be, for the moment). I say that Catholicism has always taught that Christ is King, not only of our hearts, but of our civic systems, too. So, I would want rules regarding ‘free’ evangelization in my country, and thus logically I would think (even though error has no rights) that I could accept, for the sake of accepting the greater principle of the legitimacy of a religious state (so that I could have one too!), Israel’s right to control efforts to convert. By the way, I have heard Malaysia’s state of Kelantam (I hope I’ve spelled it right–hurrying) which is an islamic religious state, allows four days of ‘open house’ to other religions, and they use it to evangelize, and use food as an enticement. This is for buddhists and Catholics. Those four days a year are MORE THAN WE DO HERE IN THE US WHERE WE ARE FREE TO EVANGELIZE OUR BRAINS OUT. Sorry to shout. It drives me wild, though.

    • Joe, I believe the Bible. I am a Gentile follower of Yeshua. You appear to represent Rabbinical Judaism, which includes the “doctrines of men.” Which is more important the Word of God or the doctrines of men? If your answer is “the Word of God,” then why do Rabbinical Jews ignore isaiah 53? If you find Isaiah 53 offensive, read Psalm 110 and tell me who David is referring to when he says, “The LORD says to my Lord.” Who is David’s Lord?

      Christians are guilty of misrepresenting Christ by holding to our own doctrines of men. Constantine moved the center of Messianic Judiasm from Jerusalem to Rome and tried to Christianize pagan holidays. He even changed the Sabbath to Sunday. No wonder Jews think that Christianity is a different religion! Not only that, but many Christians neglect the Torah. I was one of them.

      “Seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you search for Him with all your heart and all your soul.” If you do that, you will know that truth.

      .

      • Hello Sheryl, as Scripture says ” you cannot put old wine into new wineskins” if so both wine and wineskins would be lost . The Jewish religion couldn’t contain the full deposit of faith that Christ gifted his new church. The people taught that the messiah was going to win victory over the oppressive roman’s, he did just not qujte the way they taught. As the roman church is in roman and also adopted their language too. Constantine’s moving of the church was to set it up as the universal church of God. One God and one people serving the creator.

    • Christos (greek) and Mashiach ([Messiah] Hebrew) mean the same thing: “anointed.”

      But this does not validate the man or woman who calls him/her self a Christian or Messianic. Nor does the accident of ones birth and bloodline make one holy or acceptable to G-d!

      G-d will have the last and final Word. Every human knee will bow and every human tongue will confess that His Word is Truth. Every Jewish, “Messianic”/”Christian”, and pagan knee will bow to G-d.

    • Joe, you will see one day that it has been the “goal” of the Messiah Yeshua to seek and to save the lost sheep of the house of Israel, even to this day and beyond.

      Does this claim you read from my hand justify the Hitlerian violence of Judaists against Messianics who believe it too? No it does not. Were it not for God’s care for you and they, and God’s ability to restrain you, I fear you would build ovens for these who are your near kin!

      “Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.”

      “Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”

    • Dear Joe Ben Avraham ,

      The goal of a believer is to love people as God loves them. That is how you will know the true believer. Sometimes we must respond to accusations about our motives. Our Boss the Jewish carpenter was sometimes very sharp in what He said to those who did not believe Him to be Messias. But those sharp words were necessarily sharp that some would be cut and covenanted to Him in the Love those words came by. Too many christians DO try to convert others, Jews included, and fail to ask God for any assistance. Wisdom says: “Buy the truth, sell it not,” and also “Don’t hide the light of truth, let your light shine that all in the house may see!” In the end, God does the converting or it is not done at all.

      Leave aside for the moment the abysmal history of anti-semitism and persecutions against Jewish people from gentiles starting with Balaam and Balak and continuing on through the Roman and “Holy” Roman Empires, Lutheran Germany, the Klu Klux Klan, the present day sons of Ishmael and Easu, and all the other anti-Judaic movements God in His unfathomable(?) wisdom has permitted to exist… PLEASE!

      Consider these words of Jesus to a half breed Samaritan woman:

      >
      “Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”

      The woman saith unto him, “I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.”

      Jesus saith unto her, “I that speak unto thee am he.”
      >
      >

      I speak very little Hebrew and Greek, and could not tell Aramaic verses apart from others, but by the Spirit of God and with the resources His people have marvelously accumulated over the past 2000 years I have not remained in ignorance, nor in prejudice, nor in the chains of human traditions. What I do say here I believe to be true, not according to my own mind, but by the gift I have been given by God to KNOW Him.

      >
      Jeremiah 9:23-24
      23 Thus saith the Lord, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
      24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the Lord which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the Lord.
      >
      >

      You post shows a lack of understanding of the term, the language and the translations (I don’t have the time or the temperament to schmooze you).

      Start with ha Mashiach, the best english transliteration of the Hebrew word: מָשִׁיחַ. We usually see and hear it in english as Messiah or Messias. Then in Greek the word for מָשִׁיחַ is Χριστός best transliterated in english as Christos but which is seen and heard most often as Christ. There is also a word in the Greek Μεσσίας translated Messias. It is without doubt that these are all words meaning: the anointed one.*(*see below)

      The question is THIS: Is the Messiah of Daniel (Ch.9) the same One the New Covenant scriptures call Messias and Christ, and by Name: Jesus? I leave you with the following introduction and opening paragraph excerpted from “Testimony of the Evangelists” by Simon Greenleaf. Greenleaf was a Jewish man, and after believing on the Messiah Yeshua we should let him and let God say what he did then become. I do not presume to say what you are Joe, whatever thoughts I might entertain on that subject. As for myself I offer the words of the apostle Yochanan.

      >
      “But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the authority (power, privilege, right) to become the children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name—” John 1:12 Amplified Bible (AMP)
      >
      >

      The excerpt:

      “Testimony of the Evangelists by Simon Greenleaf” (1783-1853)
      ‘Greenleaf, one of the principle founders of the Harvard Law School, originally set out to disprove the biblical testimony concerning the resurrection of Jesus Christ. He was certain that a careful examination of the internal witness of the Gospels would dispel all the myths at the heart of Christianity. But this legal scholar came to the conclusion that the witnesses were reliable, and that the resurrection did in fact happen.’
      ——————————————————————————–

      In examining the evidence of the Christian religion, it is essential to the discovery of truth that we bring to the investigation a mind freed, as far as possible, from existing prejudice, and open to conviction. There should be a readiness, on our part, to investigate with candor to follow the truth wherever it may lead us, and to submit, without reserve or objection, to all the teachings of this religion, if it be found to be of divine origin. “There is no other entrance,” says Lord Bacon, “to the kingdom of man, which is founded in the sciences, than to the kingdom of heaven, into which no one can enter but in the character of a little child.” The docility which true philosophy requires of her disciples is not a spirit of servility, or the surrender of the reason and judgment to whatsoever the teacher may inculcate; but it is a mind free from all pride of opinion, not hostile to the truth sought for, willing to pursue the inquiry, and impartiality to weigh the arguments and evidence, and to acquiesce in the judgment of right reason. The investigation, moreover, should be pursued with the serious earnestness which becomes the greatness of the subject–a subject fraught with such momentous consequences to man. It should be pursued as in the presence of God, and under the solemn sanctions created by a lively sense of his omniscience, and of our accountability to him for the right use of the faculties which he has bestowed.

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~
      * anointed
      From the hebrew lexicon:
      מָשִׁיחַ (Daniel Chapter 9)
      1) anointed, anointed one
      a) of the Messiah, Messianic prince
      b) of the king of Israel
      c) of the high priest of Israel
      d) of Cyrus
      e) of the patriarchs as anointed kings

      From the greek lexicon:
      Χριστός
      Christ = “anointed”
      1) Christ was the Messiah, the Son of God
      2) anointed
      and also from the greek lexicon:
      Μεσσίας
      Messias = “anointed”
      1) the Greek form of Messiah
      2) a name of Christ

    • Hullo Joe, I am a 50-year old, Born-Again Christian, of Jamaican parentage, [and thus a citizen of Jamaica]-and I am also a UK citizen. Ironically enough, my deceased dad had Jewish ancestry on his side of the family in Jamaica, and I remember him telling me of the Macabee Kings, and other Jewish history.

      Joe, please don’t hate the ‘Messianic Jews’ for they are only doing what they have been commanded to do by Christ The Messiah [the Pharasee-Paul, Peter/John/Mark-The Apostles of Christ]-and that is/was to ‘preach the Gospel to all nations…’ [that includes the nations of Israel, the Arabic, African, European, Eur-Asian, American, and Asian, nations: see Matthew Chapter 28, verses 18-to020, and Luke Chapter 24, verses 47 and 48.]

      Furthermore, the Old Testament [of Torah] records that the Jewish prohets such as Isaiah, Daniel, Amos, Enoch, Micah, Jerimiah,Nehimiah, Elishah, Elijah, King David in the Psalms, and so on;-all accurately prophesised the Christ The Messiah’s birth, and manner of death: even Luke mentions Christ’s birth-see Luke Chapter 2, verses 11 and 1.

      It is the preaching of, and the Gospel of, Christ that sometimes offends the Muslim/Hindu/Judiac/Bahai/Sikh/Shint/Buddhist, believers,[because I believe, by reading and analysing the Old and New Testament writings,- that Christ is the word of God made carnate].

      In the Holy Bble book of Matthew Chapter 5, verses 11 and 12, Christ says: ’11. Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely for my sake. 12. Rejoice and be exceedung glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.’

      Finally, but not least, I would love to travel to Israel and evem fellowship/email Jewish believers and non-believers of Christ]-for me to learn more about the Jewish way of life according to the Old Testament/Torah Once again, please do not hate, or teach/tell people to hate, the Gospelof Christ and its messengers: -because Christ has already said what needs to be said about the issue of hate-in Matthew 5, verses 11 and 12.

    • Joe,
      I understand your hatred towards the Christians. Yet, there comes a time when what is obvious has to be revealed. Hashem will do that in His due time. You too will be eager to discover Yeshua HaMashiach because He is the Torah that came from G_d.
      Those who call you to Christianity are wrong. G_d calls you to know Him through His Mashiach. Know Him who IS, and WAS and IS TO COME

    • Great post Joe, you are absolutely spot on. I resent and am appalled that a soldier in the officer training program was recently removed because he refused to listen to a presentation( that he was forced to attend), given by a messianic “Jew” on Jesus for crying out loud. Unbelievable that here in the Jewish state a Jewish soldier is is thrown under the bus for following his faith and not wanting to be forced to listen to a Jesus lecture.

    • Thank you Joe. I was involved with so called ‘Messianic Jews’ for 15 years. The Jews I knew over that period were either (like me) grew up ignorant of being Jewish or ignorant of Torah and Mitzvot, had a reformed view of Torah or a few had abusive/controlling people involved in their upbringing and didn’t find the kind of sympathetic teachers I have met…so like me they found sympathetic christians who appealed to the child in me, but couldn’t help me grow as a Jew as Hashem intended. As a christian I was expected to have belief in the christian historical authority and told to doubt and ridcule Jewish historical authority. “Messianic Judaism” is the same as the anti-Torah christianity that grew up when so many Jews realised the Messiah had not arrived c.1975 years ago but dressed up in mock Jewish traditions. It has taken a few years now to enjoy ‘Dayenu’ at Pesach without the bitter taste of J4J/Messianic mock seders. I learn with a Rabbi who was brought up as a christian but went through conversion when he learned about the Torah from source. I have found out that many gentiles in the first 2 centuries who folowed Yeshua ben (?Yosef) realised how similar christianity was to the paganism they were saved from, and so wanted to convert to Judaism or keep the Noachide laws.. The Roman empire was crumbling and this new religion saved it under a new pagan g-dhead symbol, even though he was Jewish!

  5. By the way, the only way you will gain “fair treatment in Israel and the Diaspora, and protection as a religious minority in Israel” is to cease and desist from all missionary activity.

    What you obviously don’t understand that “fair treatment” of Jews means you are not allowed to proselytize to and convert Jews. If you try to convert Jews, it means that you, the Messianics, are not being fair to other religions. And if you yourselves are guilty of not being fair, how do you expect to be given fair treatment by the state since you are by nature opposed to the laws of the land?

    No. You do not have the right to try and convert Jews in Israel. By doing so you are guilty of intolerance and unfair treatment of Jews. And you obviously cannot expect to be treated fairly if you yourselves refuse to leave other religions alone.

    Joew

    • How is proselytizing “not fair” and “intolerant?” That seems to be a rather brittle self-assurance on your part. No one is forcing you to convert. If you reject the proselytization, then simply ignore it. If you were confident in your own beliefs, I would expect a little more self-confidence and indifference to those you believe to be wrong. The logic you’re using seems to me to be the same logic underlying the so-called “blasphemy laws” prevalent in Muslim countries, as well as the logic that some Muslims use to justify violence in the name of “insults” to their Prophet.

    • “Fair” What is fair? Fair is a pretty maiden picking wild flowers in an Alpine meadow in July.

      In real life satan deceives, snares and murders countless thousands of humans every day. In real life the God who spoke to Moses and even to Balaam would speak today to you if you would give Him your ears and attention. Stop listening to man, to rabbis whose destination you is the grave. Yeshua also died and it was His destined purpose to die, and not only to die but to rise from the dead! If He had not risen His name would not be remembered at all as it is today, but it would be have become a historical fact that He did not rise! I think with all that transpired in the 4 years before His death his remains would be memorialized! As it stands, His power over deat and the grave is memorialized and His PROMISED return is expected!

  6. The problem reverts to the existential issue that there is no such thing as a “Messianic Jew”.

    Er then how could you be on a Messianic Jewish blog?

    By the way, the only way you will gain “fair treatment in Israel and the Diaspora, and protection as a religious minority in Israel” is to cease and desist from all missionary activity.

    I thought you just said Messianic Jews don’t exist. How can a non-existent religious minority gain legal recognition? I don’t believe your offer, Sir. :)

    What you obviously don’t understand that “fair treatment” of Jews means you are not allowed to proselytize to and convert Jews

    Go tell that to the Chabad missionaries!

    If you try to convert Jews, it means that you, the Messianics, are not being fair to other religions

    This sounds a bit preachy and converty of you, Joe…

    No. You do not have the right to try and convert Jews in Israel. By doing so you are guilty of intolerance and unfair treatment of Jews.

    Nice logic, A plus!

    • I was in Judaism but now I am a proud follower of Yeshua HaMashiach. If someone call me a Christian, I feel honored and happy. The most Jewish thing I have done is to accept Jesus.

  7. Sorry Yeze – but you just seemed to prove my point by avoiding the issues. The people who call themselves Messianic Jews will continue to have harsh conditions in this country until they stop trying to convert Jews to Christianity.

    I know about your blog because of work I do with an organization that fights against missionaries, and unless I’m very wrong I don’t know of any Chabad person who goes out to convert Christians to Judaism. All the Chabad people do is try to get Jews to do more mitzvot and learn Torah.

    Bottom line: if you keep up your missionary work, you do not deserve equal rights in this country because missionary work is the antithesis of every religion except your own.

    Joe

    • I agree with Joe, most Messianic Jews are gentile followers who came from a Church. They practice Torah and try to understand some Hebraic roots of Christianity but never go pass the bible into Jewish lifestyle, culture or conversion to Judaism, or read Talmud, go to Yeshiva to get a proper Torah education or anything. Then they want to push Yeshus down Jews throats whenever they can. That is wrong. If Yeshua is Messiah, which I do believe, stop trying so hard to convience people. Jews will see that he is him when he returned and those who come to know Him as MAshiach before then ONLY COME to Him through HaShem drawing them near, not through “Hey Jews follow Torah, Yeshua is in the Torah. Stop wearing all black, you are free…” This is the same reason why Christians eat pork and women don’t cover their hair. Jews already have Torah, so it don’t make sense to go to a Torah observant Jew and teach him Torah. You teach him Yeshua through your lifestyle and through study of Talmud and Zohar so you can show where the sages and Rabbis taught who MAshiach was…. If you are MEssianic Jew and are trying to convert Jews to Jesus, it will not work and if You are MEssianic Jew and are trying to Tell Jews about Yeshua, but don’t know any of the Jewish sages and rabbis, then it ain’t gonna work. Sorry.-One one Messianic Jew to another, “in all things gain wisdom. It will teach you when to speak and when to walk your walk. People will hear and you will stop being persecuted…NEver walk into a other man’s house and try to take over his home without asking. MEssianics do this by moving to Israel, attending synagauges and trying to pass out bible tracts in a chabad somewhere….ok, seriously.”

      • Katurah, you’d be right to say the majority of people that attend a Messianic meeting be it a fellowship or synagogue would be Gentiles, however they would not be called Messianic Jews. Only someone with a Jewish mother, and like in Reform Judaism patrelinal descent is also accepted, is a Messianic Jew according to most definitions in the international Messianic Movement.

        I agree that going to shul to hand out tracts is unethical and counterproductive.

      • Katura,
        You are right as to “convincing”.
        The work of the Spirit can be done only by G-d. Convincing is no man’s job because it deals with the inner parts of one’s conscience known in depth only to G-d.
        But letting the message go through is. Now you know. Yeshua came from G-d for the Jewish people. He is the living Torah.
        And in G-d’s time, the sons of Israel will know it.

    • One of the fundamental principles of Christianity (literally, “following the anointed one”) is that its followers proclaim their faith to the world.

      Basically, you are denying people the right to believe what they believe.

      • You must not have read the following, then:

        1 Corinthians 3:5-8
        New King James Version (NKJV)
        Watering, Working, Warning

        5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.

    • Shalom, Shalom,

      I am not a jew and I am very confused …
      Dear gentlemen, I must tell you that I do not know how to ” walk” in a Derech Eretz? The Way of the G_o of Abraham, Itzak and Iacov?

      I need help!I need to understand the Torah and Shavuot is coming!
      G_D of Abraham, Isac and Iacov bless all of you!
      Shalom from Romania!

      • uminasionului – I once helped a young man understand how simple – not easy – it is to know Master’s Way. He came to where I usually sat with my spiritual studies, and asked “How can I be received by [The Deity] as His son?”

        “I went to this group and they said I had to study a year with them, and IF they accepted me, I would be received by [The Deity]. I went to another group, and they said almost the same thing.”

        “But, year after year I see you do not attend any spiritual meeting, yet you search and study the [Scripture] every day, and you do not curse and act evil like they do outside of their religious meetings. How do I find what you have?”

        I said to him, “[The Deity] is right here with us, listening, and He will show us His Word when we ask.”

        He looked surprised. “How do I talk with [The Deity]?”

        I said, “Just as you talk with me now, direct your words to Him. You ask me how to know Him, now ask Him.”

        He then made a simple request to [The Deity], and then said to me, “How will I know what He says?”

        I said, “See this stack of half sheets of my records for the past several years of what He tells me in His Living Word? (I kept half-sheets of paper, 3 columns, one line per entry of Scripture reference, both sides of each half-sheet, and had about 50 in that stack.) “Here is my proof of [The Deity] guiding me through His Living Word. He leads me to what He wants me to know, and when I ask about anything, He guides my hands to open His Word to what I need. As you see, there’s thousands of times He gives me exactly what He knows I need.”

        I said, “First you must search your heart to see if there is evil inside. Then you must surrender your expectations to His Will for you, like the “Kosher” concept of Him only giving you what is best for you, even if it hurts.”

        “Then you hold His Living Word in your hands and ask Him to use your hands to open to what He would have you know – like this;” and I opened the scripture on the table. What Master Y’suah had to say to that young man at that moment, from where He used my hands to open His Living Word, was exactly what that man needed at that moment.

        But, from you comment that you are a Jew, it may be difficult to trust that the Brit Chadashah (“New Testament”) is part of the Hebrew Scripture, so I offer this remedy that will make it easier for you to see how to use the Brit Chadashah to study Hebrew Scripture with.

        In the Brit Chadashah, Y’suah quoted lots of His Hebrew Scripture as He shared His Divine Truth to your ancestors, the Jews in Y’srael. He shared each quote in context with the principle He was teaching about in a really clear way to understand each Hebrew Scripture text. Anyone can see how the Hebrew Scripture applies when they read Y’suah’s words as He shared The Way to Life and Truth in His Hebrew Scripture. So, uminasionului, it will really bless you to carefully read what this message says, and then ask [The Deity] how to apply this to your own life. He will not fail you!

      • Shalom Lumina Sionului,
        Cauta o comunitate mesianica si fii cu rabdare. Dumnezeul lui Yakov te va indrepta si te va invata ce sa faci. Ramai credincios si Lumina iti va arata cararea. Nu dispera. El te cunoaste are planul Lui cu tine

    • Joe, that’s exactly the attitude false priests in the Temple had 2000 years ago when Y’suah HaMassiach – a full Jew – told them to their faces they were liars. You follow in the same foots steps of the rebelling people The Deity led out of Egypt, who complained at every step, and earned 40 years’ wandering in the desert instead of immediate entrance to the Master’s land.

      An old saying asks, “Why do you kick against the goad?” I ask you, sir, “Why do you resist the Truth with such wrath, except again prove that HaMasiach has picked the most stiff-necked people of all His Earth to be His Witnesses to all the rest of people?

      He was not received by your forefathers, and He was not sent to His cross by the Romans, but by Jews who preferred a criminal instead of the One Who calls them to their own safety under His wings. Joe, the reality is, you are making life for your only hope miserable, as usual.

  8. Joe: if you’d prefer to live in a country where there is no freedom to persuade others to change their religion, try Iran. nu?

  9. Great. I’m glad you made yourself clear.

    That means if my religion happens to tell me that I should convert Christian children so that they worship the devil, then you obviously won’t object. According to you, that’s simply my “freedom to persuade” your kid that the devil is really the true lord.

    See how hollow your argument is? So can I introduce your kids to some great devil-worship cults since you can’t deny me my “freedom to persuade” them?

    Joe

    • I would LOVE that! :) The reason people are so culturally ignorant is because they cannot stand to listen to something they don’t believe in.

      In order for their to be peace, we need to patiently listen to each other’s points of view. :)

      • hr, listening may lead to going the wrong way, unless the listening is done through the filter of Truth. The Truth is Y’suah HaMasiach, and His Living Word defines what to listen to, and not listen to. The world is filled with liars, and many use a little truth that they wrap in books of deception to cause unwary, uneducated people to stray off into Deception.

        So, to the wise, there is judgement. To the fool, there is speculation.

    • My! You truly do follow in the footsteps of ancient false Temple priests! The used the same arguments, almost word for word as you! Of Y’suah they said he cast out devils by the power of devils!

      Yikes! Cannot you see how deep your darkness is, Joe? But, that is also what Y’suah taught in His “Sermon on the Mountain.” He asked, “How deep is their darkness, those whose light is darkness?” The rationale being, “If one’s “illumination” is darkness, how then shall one know the depth of such, for there is no light to illuminate its depth.”

      Joe, you use so many double negatives that appear to the human mind as facts, such as “Don’t preach to me, since I am already perfect, and in fact, I am [The Deity], I am so perfect!” And, “I will castigate and cause evil to come on you if you dare share that I am evil minded and need to change my ways!” But, Joe, by your own double negatives you are displaying a wicked, self-centric heart that is utterly devoid of any Truth.

      Why not come to the One Who states He is Truth, Life, and the Way to both? What is so difficult, other than your own self-pride, to simply surrender your heart to Your Y’suah HaMasiach, Who gave His Own Life for you to have The Life?

      Is that so hard?

  10. See how hollow your argument is? So can I introduce your kids to some great devil-worship cults since you can’t deny me my “freedom to persuade” them?

    Sure, go for it!

  11. “All the Chabad people do is try to get Jews to do more mitzvot and learn Torah.”

    You forgot to mention the bit about reciting the Yechi.

  12. Joe Ben Abraham “your goal is to commit religious genocide”
    With such hysterical statements you encourage violent men like Teitel.

    “Bottom line: if you keep up your missionary work, you do not deserve equal rights in this country because missionary work is the antithesis of every religion except your own.” What a load of old cobblers, everyone deserves equal rights in whatever country they are citizens of and visitors to!

    Universal Declaration of Human Rights of the United Nations.

    Article 18 – Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

    Article 19 – Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression: This right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

    • Gev,

      I find it rather interesting that you appeal to the United Nations for the preservation of rights . The UN has proven to be vehicle by which the nations express their animus against G-d and his Anointed (Psalm 2). Where prophetic history is concerned, the UN existed to usher in the existence of Israel is a viable nation-state so the prophecy to be fulfilled. That is the only ‘good’ they accomplished.

  13. Gosh, the “freedom to hold opinions without interference”.

    That certainly means that Jews have the freedom to be Jews without being voraciously pursued by Christians trying to steal their souls.

    Thanks for pointing out that Jews are protected by international treaties from you soul-stealing mercenaries for Christ. Oh sorry, you call yourselves missionaries instead of mercenaries.

    I don’t encourage Teitels. You do that yourselves. You simply can’t stand up in public and say “I believe that the Jews have the right to be Jews without interference from missionaries – we will not try to convert them to believe in Jesus because their religious rights are protected by the UN”.

    Come on, say it: Jews have the right to be left alone by Christians. If you can’t say it, then you are telling us all that you continue to threaten our existence, that if you can you will try to convert our children into Christians.

    Sorry, but there is a great evil when you know that people are trying to steal you child’s soul and convert them to a different religion.

    Missionaries are evil to everybody except themselves, of course, because you simply cannot contemplate that stealing another person’s religion is not right, despite you writing that other religions have the rights to protect them from people like you.

  14. I don’t encourage Teitels. You do that yourselves.

    So you do encourage Teitels, if you’re honest!

    Sorry, but there is a great evil when you know that people are trying to steal you child’s soul and convert them to a different religion.

    Joe, some Messianic children may be reading this blog!

    Are you trying to convert them away from their natural beliefs by labelling those beliefs as evil?

    Are you a missionary?

  15. Ben,

    I am an evangelical Gentile, not Jewish by birth. I do not claim to be Jewish. Would you and your fellow Israelis persecute my family if we tried to win Israelis to Yeshua Messiah while we visit Israel?

    Does tolerance of free speech apply only to us visitors and not to Israeli citizens?

    • Illegal activity isn’t protected by free speech. Missionary activity is illegal in Israel and rightly so. Stop trying to force your ignorant nonsense on Jews.

      I have once question for Christians: if someone claims that a book is from G-d can this book contain mistakes in simple matters of fact?

      • Israel is a democratic state with freedom of religion, including freedom to preach minority religious views, missionaries are not illegal in Israel, only preaching to kids withot parental consent or using financial incentives, both sensible caveats.

      • Stephen, that’s why your ancestors had your Y’suah HaMasaich murdered – they, as you, adamantly denied His right to call them, as He now calls you, to His Life, away from the Deception you call “truth.”

        Good job! You perpetuate your ancestor’s hatred of Truth and life in rejection for your own children!

  16. Hi Ken – Sorry, but free speech does not include yelling “fire” in a theater, and by our beliefs it does not include allowing people to try and convert us away from our religion. That is not freedom for us, it is persecution that we have fought for 2000 years.

    You are free to come and visit and enjoy Israel, but you have no inherent right to do missionary work. As article 19 says “freedom to hold opinions without interference”. That means that Jews have the freedom to hold their religious opinions with interference from missionaries.

    Missionary work is by definition interfering in the life of another person. We really don’t care if you consider it part of your religion, since it is NOT part of ours and we do not want it.

    If sacrificing babies was part of my religion of XYZZY as was trying to convert people to XYZZYism, then according to you I have the right to try and convince you to sacrifice your baby on my altar. If you prevented me from doing so, you’d be persecuting me, right? Obviously this is a horribly exaggerated example but very pertinent to this debate.

    No, you do not have the right to come into Israel and try to convert Jews to Christianity. That is intolerant of you, offensive of you, and very objectionable to us Jews.

    The problem seems to be that missionaries simply don’t care about being tolerant of other people, nor respecting their objections to your behavior.

    If you insist on doing missionary work while you are a guest in this country, then no, you are not welcome, just as I would not be welcome in your house if I tried to pry your children away from you and Jesus.

    Does tolerance of free speech apply to me when I am in your home? Will you leave me alone with your children so I can convince them that Jesus is not the messiah and they are worshiping a false god?

    I don’t think you would, nor would you call that free speech. Because it’s not.

    Respectfully,
    Joe

  17. “according to you I have the right to try and convince you to sacrifice your baby on my altar… Will you leave me alone with your children”

    I am worried now!!!

  18. Yeze – please stay out of the conversation unless you have something substantive to offer.
    And no, I do not encourage Teitels and I do not encourage anybody to take violent action and break the law. Teitel will be tried in a court of law, and he is innocent until proven guilty. If guilty, they should lock him up and throw away the key.
    I’m more than a little disgusted and disappointed by you lowering the level of talk to nyaa nyaa.

    • Joe, your immaturity is breaking out of the mask you try to wrap it in! This is a PUBLIC forum, for the entire world to read, if not participate in! What’s so interesting about you is the fascism you hate Hitler for, but practice yourself.

  19. “Yeze – please stay out of the conversation unless you have something substantive to offer.”

    Dude, you’re on my blog! I talk about what I like.

    “If guilty, they should lock him up and throw away the key.”

    Good, we’re in agreement.

    “I’m more than a little disgusted and disappointed by you lowering the level of talk to nyaa nyaa.”

    Well, you started it…

  20. Joe,

    You wrote that the law in Israel protects the right to hold one’s religious beliefs without interference. Great! Would that same protection apply equally to Christian Israelis who choose to hold worship services inside their own churches? If so, will you unite me in condemning those who frequently enter their churches and yell unkind words?

  21. Joe Ben Avraham,

    Does “the freedom to hold opinions without interference” protect Israelis who believe that Yeshua is Israel’s Messiah?

    Aren’t acts of interference with their private worship services “interference”?

  22. Of course I condemn those who enter churches and launch verbal attacks. It is totally unacceptable, just like trying to convert people is unacceptable.

    And yes, Israelis have the right to believe in whatever god they like – and that right includes Christians who believe Jesus is the messiah and Buddhists and Bahais.

    Yes, acts of interference with private worship services are illegal and the police should press charges of trespassing and disturbing the public order.

    Messianics have the right to believe and worship what they want.

    Messianics do not have the right to go out into the streets and try to convert people.

    I hope you see the difference, but I doubt you’ll change your ways. The result of missionary activity in Israel will only be the sowing of more hatred.

    If you want respect, you have to earn respect. You do not get respect by trying to convert people – that only breeds hatred.

    I have many, many Christian and Catholic friends. I even have some Muslim friends. Absolutely none of them has ever tried to convince me that I should change or modify my own beliefs and accept theirs instead of mine. They have my enduring love and respect.

    Missionaries, on the other hand, by their (and your) own admission cannot leave people alone. They believe that God told them to go and convert people, and they go out and try to do just that. This is the type of activity that breeds hatred, disrespect for other peoples’ religions and beliefs, intolerance for other peoples’ beliefs, and causes the anger that is vented at Messianic Christians in Israel (including the ones who call themselves Jews).

    You have the freedom to believe what you want. This is not America and you do not have the freedom to try to impose your religious beliefs on Jews. There is no such “right” in Israel.

    Ken, bring your family to Israel. Go worship in the church of your choice. Say and do whatever you want inside that chuch, inside your hotel room, inside your rental car.

    No, you do not have the right to approach Israelis and try to convert them – that is called missionary work and not a visit to Israel. If you do so, it means you entered Israel under false pretense (not to visit, but to preach) and you will not be welcome. I also support the arrest and deportation of people who do so.

    You will not that Brigham Young University was allowed to establish a campus in Jerusalem only under their honorable agreement to ensure that their staff and students engage in absolutely zero missionary work in Israel.

    If the Mormons can honor and respect our wishes, you should be able to do so too.

    Ken – are you an honorable person and do you respect our beliefs and our wishes not to be preached to?

    • That is the most reasonable and common sense arguement I’ve seen on here so far. If more people had this kind of respect for one another, the world would be a far better place.

      • Then, you have no respect for those who interfere with thugs as they murder your neighbor, or run around with high explosives they blow up occupied buses with, and you promote every act of hatred for health committed in the name of sexual freedom, and you believe Hitler had every right to slaughter all those he decided were a problem, and you think those who murder unborn humans have every right to do so without interference, and . . . Well, if you don’t get the absurdity of your support for Joe Ben’s nonsense, you’re ethically dead.

  23. Joe your line of argument is similar to that of blaming antisemitism on the mere existence of Jewish people or asserting that a rape victim “had it coming” because her skirt was to short!

    Anyone can say no to a leaflet in the street or no to Chabad nagging you to lay teffilin or telephone marketing, you can switch over when adverts come on tv. You yourself are trying to convert others to your beliefs in this very interchange of opinions! Central to faith in Jesus is the go and tell element, how can you say you respect Christians if you are so keen to convert them from such a core value? Your professed love and respect is conditional on them never telling you why they believe what they believe or thinking it so wonderful as to want to share it with others, or follow what they believe, as you noted, is a command of God, a central element of their faith.

    If you don’t want to “be preached to” that is your prerogative, but you cannot speak for a whole nation. It is obvious that many Israelis want to hear about Jesus, there are large numbers that do believe Jesus is the Messiach despite that belief and conviction setting much of their own society against them. It is a false characterisation to say that all Christians who want to talk to people about their faith are”imposing” American religious beliefs on anyone, you just want to gag people you disagree with, arrest and deport tourists who don’t keep your thought police rules. C’mon Israel is not Iran!

    Israel defends religious freedom, and despite what you say missionary work is not illegal in Israel, it may be hated by large sections of society, but not illegal. The only law is the sensible restriction in Israeli law is on approaching minors without parental consent.

    • Considering the first century CE understanding that would be committed to parchment some two centuries later in Pirke Avot, Yeshua was operating well within the parameters of ‘being deliberate in judgment, raising up many disciples and building fences around the Torah’. Yeshua did not criticise outreach per-se (he would later order his followers to do the same), it was the doctrinal content of some of the Pharisees in his day that were propagated in those they reached (‘make them twice a son of hell as you’ in the gospels). I believe that much more scholarly attention must be paid to the period between the resurrection event to Justin Martyr’s bad-mouthing in his “Dialogue with Trypho”.

  24. Joe Ben,

    Kudos and gratitude for condemning acts of violence against Messianic Jews and the disruption of their worship services. I am always looking for common ground. Let us buiild upon it.

    I still have a problem with how you interpret “interference”.
    You wrote that missionaries do not have the right to go out into the streets and do missionary work. I don’t see why not even under Israeli law. How is that interference?

    The law does not outlaw religious speech… even persuasive speech. The law outlaws only “interference”. Evidently the police and courts in Israel agree that persuasion is not interference.

    So my question is this: Do you, Joe, know of any Israeli court ruling that holds that religious persuasion is illegal?

  25. Gev – you yourself admit that missionaries are “hated by large sections of society”.
    Do you not get it?
    Do you not understand that if you behave with respect to Jews you will not be hated?

    If you respect our religion and do not try to convert us, then you will not be hated.

    As you yourself now admit, you have brought the hate upon yourselves.

    Be a Christian without trying to convert Jews, and you’ll have no problems.

    But missionaries will always be hated and despised in Israel because they are missionaries and can’t keep their noses out of other peoples’ religions.

    Sorry, but you’re simply wrong. I don’t speak for my nation, but I am certainly part of it. My nation speaks for itself and you have heard the message: “hated by large sections of society”.

    I know you missionaries will not change. Therefore, the hatred against you will continue.

    I don’t think you are doing the Lord’s work at all. To the majority of us you are doing evil.

    • “They will make you (followers of Yeshuah) outcasts from the synagogue, but an hour is coming for everyone who kills you to think that he is offering service to God. “These things they will do because they have not known the Father or Me.” (John 16:2-3 NASB)

      • That references people who think that they are doing HaShem’s will when they are actually doing evil. This is not about Torah observant Jews who are one with HaShem. They are in prayer and listen to the spirit of Adonai. Plus this verse speaks about end time things that has not yet come that will occur once the Anti Messiah and False prophet insitute the One world religion amongst other things.

        There is also a verse in REvelation I believe that reads this in defence of the Jewish people you were referencing in that verse. Yeshua said,”Many people will come to me and say “Have I not done miracles and wonders in your name, etc. etc. And Yeshua will tell them, “Depart from me you workers of law-less-ness, I do not know you.” Meaning 1. Not all people are doing g-d’s work unto Him, but to themselves and 2. MAny Christians and some MEssianics do not practice law or instruction from HaShem (Shabbat, blessing those who curse you, 613 commandments, etc. Yeshua was a Jew and his first followers where JEws and they taught and spoke amongst RAbbis and JEws. Most MEssianics only speak around Christians to convert them over to Torah and that is ok, but you guys are not prepared to speak to a Jew. It is evident by the things you say here in the comments as well as the mass ignorance of jewish law regarding LAshon Hara (the law against evil speech), which ironically Yeshua taught his disciples.

        Missionaries should stop missionizing. You got a bad history of running up in people’s countries and killing people, raping the children of their cultures and identification as well as stealing from the lands you enter. Not everyone, but your history is bad. No wonder Jews and Muslims do not want you there. If you can learn to reach people in a better way than forcing yourselves on others by “Thinking YOU are doing G-d’s work” then Jews would not mind. Instead you go over there and tell them they are bound by stupid laws, YEshua is the lamb who fulfilled the law and although you mix hebraic-ness to the bible, you are still a part of Christianity.

        The way to make a Jew jealous, according to the biblical way is by doing Torah. I am Messianic but I am also Chabad Breslov and you would be surprized how many Messianic Yeshua believers there are in Chabad, but you will never know or hear of them because you gentile Christian cover ups give us all a bad name in the face of our brother. You should go home, get off the net, pray to HaShem and learn Torah. Love you brother as your self as this one teaching sums up the Commandments. IF you love your brother you would not hate. If you hate your brother you do not love Yeshua. Simple as day. The enemy in Israel is not the Jews, It is the way of life that divides the line between everyone. REspect a jew and he will listen. Impose on a Jew and he will lash out. This is the nature of the yetzer hara, or do you not know and understand spiritual things?

  26. Ken – no, I have not gone through the court records to know if there has ever been a ruling like that.

    In fact, I’m not interested in doing so.

    As Gev noted, missionaries are hated by the majority of Jews in Israel. If you started up with the Muslim community I think their reaction would be even worse.

    Again. You are welcome to come to Israel and visit. See the holy sites and enjoy your stay.

    You are not welcome to come and do missionary work.

    As I have said before and say again, and as Gev noted above: the majority of Israelis despise you for your work and your belief that you cannot leave people alone and must try to convert us to Christianity.

    We have been persecuted and untold tens or hundreds of thousands of Jews – men, women and children – have been murdered at the hands of Christians over the past 2000 years.

    We are now the masters in our own house and we offer religious freedom to all our citizens. That does not include the freedom to steal Jews from their families. That work is evil, it is despicable, it is among the most ultimate forms of hatred you can foist upon a family.

    If you love us – leave our religion alone.

    If you are still full of pride and hate and despotism for anything that is not Christian, if you are truly intolerant, if you do indeed have no respect for your fellow non-Christian human beings – God’s creations – then you will arouse our wrath. It is not persecution against Messianics, it is preservation of Judaism.

    I hope you see the difference and will have a pleasant vacation and a safe trip back to your home.

    If you do go out in the streets and try to convert Jews, pray that you don’t come across me.

    Respectfully,
    Joe

  27. “We have been persecuted and untold tens or hundreds of thousands of Jews – men, women and children – have been murdered at the hands of Christians over the past 2000 years…. If you do go out in the streets and try to convert Jews, pray that you don’t come across me.”

    Is that a threat? And if it is, how are you any better than those who threaten your co-religionists?

  28. Gev – you yourself admit that missionaries are “hated by large sections of society”.
    Do you not get it?
    Do you not understand that if you behave with respect to Jews you will not be hated?

    Exactly what anti-Semites say to Jews, and pretend it’s all about their behaviour. It’s not – it’s about existence. Same applies with Messianic Jews.

    Joe, you clearly have no problem with Chabad missionaries, despite their belief that the Messiah was God, and their attempts to convert Jews.

    So why the hatred to Christian Jews?

  29. Chabad people do not try to convert Christians to Judaism. The goal of Chabad is to get Jews to perform more mitzvot.

    Therefore, Chabad are simply not missionaries, and to even use the term on Chabad shows a high level of ignorance as to what Chabad is all about.

    I have no hatred to Christian Jews because there is no such thing. You cannot be both at the same time. You are either a Jew who believes that the messiah has not yet come and you are obligated to perform all 613 mitzvot, or you are a Christian who believes that Jesus is/was the messiah.

    There is no such thing as a Messianic Jew. It’s like me being a multi-millionaire capitalist living in Caesarea and calling myself a marxist revolutionary. I and my small band of followers are the only ones who believe me – everybody else sees me as the capitalist I really am. Thus, we Jews see you as the Christians you really are.

    You, sir or maam, are a Christian who may be following some Jewish ritualistic practices. You believe in Jesus, therefore by definition you are a Christian, not a Jew.

    A Christian Jew is like a blind optometrist.

    And no, Ken is still not welcome to come to Israel to try and harvest Jewish souls.

  30. Therefore, Chabad are simply not missionaries, and to even use the term on Chabad shows a high level of ignorance as to what Chabad is all about.

    Why do they call themselves emissaries then?

    What’s the difference between an emissary and a missionary?

  31. Are you aware that Chabad also believe the Messiah died and was divine? So what’s your theological opposition to Jews believing in Jesus then?

  32. Joe Ben Avraham,

    From your reply you say you don’t know if any courts share your opinion that religious persuasion is the same as religious interference. Is your opinion just your private, personal opinion? If it is, then it means Christians and Israelis who believe in Yeshua as Messiah are legally free to evangelize (persuade) in Israel.

    Is this true? Is it truly legal in Israel to persuade others on matters of religion? If so, then missionaries and evangelistically-minded Christians like myself are legally free to do so inside Israel. Is this correct?

  33. I just read from Yeze the following:
    “Proselytizing is legal in the country and missionaries of all religious groups are allowed to proselytize all citizens. However, a 1977 law prohibits any person from offering material benefits as an inducement to conversion. It is also illegal to convert persons under 18 years of age unless one parent is an adherent of the religious group seeking to convert the minor.”

    He cited this source link:

    http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2009/127349.htm

    So it appears that Christian Messianic Jewish evangelism for the purpose of persuading Jews that Yeshua is the Messiah is legal in Israel.

  34. Ken – why do you care if it is legal or not?

    The vast majority of Jews in this country see missionaries as slightly lower on the evolutionary scale than drug dealers and pimps.

    Again – if you love us, leave us alone.

    If you hate us, then preach as much as you want. You will reap what you sow, as does the Messianic Christian community here in Israel.

    Joe

  35. Yeze – It’s hard to believe that you really wrote this:
    “What’s the difference between an emissary and a missionary?”

    Do you represent the average member of the Messianic Christians in Israel? Either English is not your mother tongue, or you don’t own a dictionary. Crikey, there are lots of them online! There is indeed a huge difference between the two words.

    And then you have the bizarre notion that since “Chabad also believe the Messiah died and was divine” and from this you determine that Jews should believe in Jesus?

    That’s got to be one of the dumbest attempts at extrapolation I’ve seen in a long time.

    Seriously, go take Philosophy 101 and Theology 101. You obviously need both of them.

    And no, Messianic Christians are not Jews. You are Christians.

    Joe

  36. Either English is not your mother tongue, or you don’t own a dictionary. Crikey, there are lots of them online! There is indeed a huge difference between the two words.

    Okay then, let’s have a look in a dictionary!

    EMISSARY

    noun 1. a representative sent on a mission or errand: emissaries to negotiate a peace.
    2. an agent sent on a mission of a secret nature, as a spy.
    3. Anatomy. sending or coming out, as certain veins that pass through the skull and connect the venous sinuses inside with the veins outside.
    4. pertaining to an emissary.

    –adjective 5. Archaic. sent forth, as on a mission.

    ——————————————————————————–

    Origin:
    1595–1605; < L ēmissārius one sent out, equiv. to ēmiss- (see emission ) + -ārius -ary

    Synonyms:
    1. delegate, ambassador, envoy, legate.

    MISSIONARY

    mis⋅sion⋅ar⋅y  /ˈmɪʃəˌnɛri/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [mish-uh-ner-ee] Show IPA noun, plural -ar⋅ies, adjective
    Use missionary in a Sentence
    See web results for missionary
    See images of missionary
    –noun Also, mis⋅sion⋅er. 1. a person sent by a church into an area to carry on evangelism or other activities, as educational or hospital work.
    2. a person strongly in favor of a program, set of principles, etc., who attempts to persuade or convert others.
    3. a person who is sent on a mission.

    –adjective 4. pertaining to or connected with religious missions.
    5. engaged in such a mission, or devoted to work connected with missions.
    6. reflecting or prompted by the desire to persuade or convert others: the missionary efforts of political fanatics.
    7. characteristic of a missionary.

    ——————————————————————————–

    Origin:
    1635–45; < NL missiōnārius. See mission, -ary

  37. And then you have the bizarre notion that since “Chabad also believe the Messiah died and was divine” and from this you determine that Jews should believe in Jesus?

    No I’m asking, why do you have a problem with Jews believing in Jesus if you don’t have a problem with Jews4Schneerson?

  38. The vast majority of Jews in this country see missionaries as slightly lower on the evolutionary scale than drug dealers and pimps.

    Really? Why don’t Yad L’Achim receive more volunteers and more donations then?

  39. Joe Ben,

    I understand from your reply then that you admit that Christian evangelism of Jews is legal in Israel. That is important to me and to my evangelism-minded fellow Christian believers, because this knowledge empowers us with more freedom to be bolder and more open in our evangelism in Israel.

    I also fully understand that our proclaiming Yeahua as Messiah to Jews in Israel makes us subject to the hatred of many Jews in Israel, to which I reply (speaking only for myself), “So what?”

    Did not our Messiah warn us that we would be rejected and attacked? “Blessed are you when men shall revile you and persecute you and say all manner of evil against you falsely for My Name’s sake.” Did not Apostles Peter and Paul warn us not to think it strange or a scandal when we are subjected to abuse? Did not they warn us that those who oppose us violently will think they honor God? Did they not also give us this precious promise, “All they who will live G-dly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.?”

    This suffering for privilege of proclaiming Yeahua (Jesus) as Messiah is only to be expected. I willing and gladly choose to accept persecution as a consequence of my faithfully proclaiming Yeshua as Israel’s Messiah.

    I listen to a higher voice. The most precious words in the universe are “Well done, good and faithful servant. Enter into the joy of your Lord.”

  40. Ken – glad you admit that your goal is to promote hatred.

    In that you just said publicly that you are willing to come to Israel and promote your views which promote hatred, why shouldn’t I alert the police that you are planning on coming to do that?

    When you arrive at the airport you are declaring that your purpose in Israel is for tourism. If the purpose of your visit is to promote hatred, then of course I’ll let the police know that your are making a phony claim to be a “tourist” to make sure they arrest you and stick you and your family on the next plane home.

    As I said, you reap what you sow.

    Joe

  41. The bottom line: Missionaries are a blight on humanity that won’t go away.

    Messianic Christians in Israel will continue to misrepresent themselves as Jews, and will continue to draw the hatred and disgust of the nation.

    Why do you complain about “persecution” if that’s what you want?

    You’re the one who quoted: “All they who will live G-dly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.?”

    So stop complaining about being persecuted and admit that it’s what you want.

    Take your punishment and smile. Don’t complain about it.

    And Ken, you might get an unpleasant greeting at the airport and a very, very short trip to the Holy Land. But it’s what you want, right?

    Joe

  42. Joe BA you sound like you want to live, or think you life in a theocratic police state that arrests people for their outlawed religious convictions, rather than in a democratic country with freedom of religious expression. You are doing your best to convert people to your point of view about their religion whilst on the other hand threatening them with the police when they seek to do the same as you!

  43. Well Joe, you’ve revealed your true colours. You can’t make an argument on its own merit without threatening other people or invoking state authority. You must feel very proud of yourself.

  44. “The bottom line: Missionaries are a blight on humanity that won’t go away.”

    Joe isn’t that the kind of thing that antisemites traditionally say about Jewish people?

  45. ‘Joe isn’t that the kind of thing that antisemites traditionally say about Jewish people?”

    Kevin, you’re overreaching with your anti-semites analogy. Jews are not being persecuted for trying to make Gentiles into Jews or for any specific and real action that affects another person positively or negatively – they are hated for just BEING Jews, even if they don’t live as Jews. That’s a tremendous difference in reasons for hatred that can’t be compared to protestant, catholic, mormon or JW missionaries (defined as religious clergy or lay workers who voluntarily actively seeking to convert others into their religion).

  46. Not so Gene, “blight on humanity” is precisely the sort of language used by antisemites about Jewish people and there is no justification in Joe using it about people who have different religious views to him.

  47. “That’s a tremendous difference in reasons for hatred that can’t be compared to protestant, catholic, mormon or JW missionaries (defined as religious clergy or lay workers who voluntarily actively seeking to convert others into their religion).”

    Q: Then why don’t they hate Chabad missionaries too?

    A: Because it’s who we are not what we do.

    Gene, it’s got nothing to do with standing on street corners handing out leaflets. For Yad L’Achim and Joe BA, we are Amalek, we are Esav, and we’re gonna get destroyed when Moshiach comes.

    If you don’t believe me, ask them yourselves!

  48. “For Yad L’Achim and Joe BA, we are Amalek, we are Esav, and we’re gonna get destroyed when Moshiach comes. ”

    Yeze… I think that just about ALL observant Jews feel this way about Jewish (and some non-Jewish) followers of Yeshua (or followers of other “deities,” whom the Orthodox view as idols and foreign gods), and not just the groups or people you mentioned. The bottom line is that Yeshua is viewed as an idol and foreign god, which is of course false, but is based on historic reality of how Yeshua was presented and still presented to our people ever since the first century CE, and how they were treated in his name by his followers. I understand it and I am not angry at all for our people for feeling this way. Only Yeshua can remedy this and he will when he returns. The Jewish rejection of him opened up a way to salvation for the Gentiles (it’s in the NT). It’s all G-d’s plan.

  49. Fair enough Gene, but I’ve got Jewish friends who aren’t keen on missionaries or Messianic Jews, but they’ll still hang out with me. That I can live with.

    However I’m talking about a small minority who hold to the Redemption doctrine David Ortiz referred to:

    http://www.hurryupharry.org/2009/11/03/redemption/

    It’s good that you’re not angry at other people for disagreeing with your views on Yeshua, which is to your immense credit.

    I hope you realise that we’re not angry with people for disagreeing with us, we’re specifically angry with those who incite hatred and bigotry towards the body of Messiah in Israel!

    Thanks though also for reminding us of the bigger picture.

  50. Pingback: Jewish enough for you? « The Rosh Pina Project

  51. Joe Ben,

    Thank you for your frank replies. You admited that proclaiming Yeshua Hamashiach to Jews in Israel is legal. You also acknowledged that persecution does not deter Bible-believing, born again Christians from evangelizing Jews in Israel.

    Now you suggest that Israeli law prohibits foreign visitors from entering to Israel to proclaim Yeshua Hamashiach to Jews. Is this what you are saying?

    Thanks everyone including Joe Ben for the interesting replies and comments. Everyone’s contributions are sincerely appreciated.

  52. Ken Thomas, I have a question for you:

    Would you agree to support (actively and financially – with your own time and money, or at least by supportive postings on anti-missionaries blogs), in the name of freedom of religion, the legal rights (with freedom from persecution) of Mormons or Jehovah’s Witnesses missionaries to evangelize the Jews in Israel into their version of Jesus and faith?

    • Gene,

      I just learned how to reply specifically to posts here. You asked if I would support with my time and money and posts the rights of those with whom I am in disagreement. The answer is an unequivocal YES. By coincidence I posted this reply to a similar anti-missionary post earlier. I think it apt here.

      Hello Tabitha,

      I am an evangelical Christian and a Gentile, so I look at this from a different perspective. You wrote that we Christians would be enraged if a believer in Yeshua Hamashiach were to convert to a non-Christian faith and yet call him/herself a Christian.

      This happens all too frequently. Guess what? WE ARE NOT ENRAGED. Nor do we harrass these people, persecute them, or harm them. We don’t attempt to prevent them from speaking or from calling themselves Christian. Instead we continue to love them and care for their souls and be the best friends and fellow human beings we can be to them, and pray that God will lead them back to Jesus as Messiah. He does and often!

      I refer to people who join pseudo-Christian cults and try to convert others. Let me assure you of this: I may strongly disagree with their message, but I strongly support their basic human rights including the right to lawfully proclaim their false beliefs regardless of my personal opinion. That is the America Way. Let us both respect the human rights of others.

      • I should add that this means I support and would defend the legal rights of anti-missionaries too! The only caveat is that their actions must be non-violent and lawful. I don’t support free speech advocation violence or persecution.

  53. Would you agree to support (actively and financially – with your own time and money, or at least by supportive postings on anti-missionaries blogs), in the name of freedom of religion, the legal rights (with freedom from persecution) of Mormons or Jehovah’s Witnesses missionaries to evangelize the Jews in Israel into their version of Jesus and faith?

    Why would that matter?

    I totally support the right of Jehovah’s Witness missionaries to evangelise in a democratic country.

    Yad L’Achim target them every bit as much as they target Messianic Jews.

    • But one could turn this question round, Gene:

      Would you agree to support (actively and financially – with your own time and money, or at least by negative postings on pro-Messianic blogs), in the name of religious convictions, the arguments (with deep sympathy for the persecutors) made by other theocratic terrorists and nutters, such as Hamas and Hezbollah, or is it only the Jewish ones you respect?

  54. Yeze, that’s an easy answer for me: I do not support any terrorists of any group. As for “nutters”, shouldn’t we be compassionate to people with mental illness?

    Let’s hear from Ken now.

    • Oh totally, I meant that in another way. “Bigots” is a better term.

      But you’re always talking about understanding Yad L’Achim.

      And you’ve compared me & Gev to Yad L’Achim previously.

      If I compared you to Hamas, how would you feel?

  55. Jews have endured over 2000 years of Christian Evangelicals trying to do virtually everything they can to convert us.

    Why don’t some of you have the basic decency to leave us be in the ONE, tiny corner of the world that is ours?

    I bet you, as Christians, hate it when Muslims persecute Christians and pressure them to convert.

    Yet you will do all you can to justify your fixation on Jews and your desire to convert us to YOUR faith.

    And the irony of this?

    That with your efforts, and the millions of dollars/pounds that you spend on your evangelising – it’s STILL NOT WORKING.

    The Messianic movement has attracted far, far more Christians to it than Jews.

    • I bet you, as Christians, hate it when Muslims persecute Christians and pressure them to convert.

      Yeah – forced conversion is totally wrong.

      That with your efforts, and the millions of dollars/pounds that you spend on your evangelising – it’s STILL NOT WORKING.

      So why do you spend your free time blogging against evangelising efforts by Christians?

      The Messianic movement has attracted far, far more Christians to it than Jews.

      Which explains why the Messianic movement has grown from seven families to 15,000 people in Israel in the last sixty years?

  56. “But you’re always talking about understanding Yad L’Achim.”

    I do understand them – I understand the reasons behind their attitudes and actions. They act this way (zealous for G-d and against those whom they view as enemies of G-d) because they do not know that Yeshua IS the true Messiah. I feel sorry for them and it’s my prayer that Yeshua opens their eyes when he returns.

    “And you’ve compared me & Gev to Yad L’Achim previously.”

    Only in the zeal for opposition to your enemies and support for your cause – I was not making a moral comparison.

    “If I compared you to Hamas, how would you feel?”

    Hey, at least I picked a JEWISH group to compare you with! Compare me with settlers or something:)

    • Haha fair enough :p

      “zeal for opposition to your enemies”

      We feel like you Gene, we feel tremendously sorry for them. Understanding why people think in a certain way doesn’t mean we can’t comment and criticise that.

  57. Tabatha, the reality is that Christians spend far more time and effort on Muslims and other people groups than Jews. In Britain for example, many nominal Christians are converting to Islam, do I need to have protection from the State in order to maintain my religion or can it stand by itself. Do ideas need to have geographical boundaries? In anycase if it is not working, what are you so worried about?

  58. Gene, may I share a verse with you, just to explain where we’re coming from:

    2 Corinthians 10:4-5
    The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Messiah.

    Blessings,

    Yeze

  59. YEZE:

    I blog to *counter* blatant lies that *some* people tell about Judaism.

    You don’t find it significant that prior to the late 1960s, there were no “messianic jews”, really…?

    They described themselves as Hebrew Christians.

    While still not an entirely accurate name, I’d suggest that it’s far, far LESS deceitful than “messianic jews”.

  60. YEZE:

    No, the Christian scriptures were not ‘written by jews’.

    They were written and compiled decades after Jesus died. By that time, Christianity had evolved a great deal and was an entirely Gentile faith.

    Only a very, very small number of Jews ever followed Jesus, because virtually all Jews were aware that Jesus didn’t fulfill the 23 prophecies in the Tanakh BEFORE he died. Which the Jewish maschiach must.

    No ‘second coming’ in Judaism.

      • Right on! Nicole! Judaism is a cult of Satan – always was, and that is why Y’suah went on two rampages in their heathen temple! In fact, Nehemia Gordon really spells out how deceptive and evil these Judaism rabbis are in his “The Hebrew Yeshua vs. the Greek Jesus” as he details how modern Pharisee rabbis claim that they have authority to write scripture and even [The Deity] cannot change what they write!

        The real issue with those opposed to Believers’ missions activities is that it exposes their own deceptions, and their self-pride hates that just as that same self-pride hated Y’suah for exposing it in His hearers’ hearts 2000 years ago, in Y’srael!

        • Claudius,
          Since this is a video and most will be prone to gravitate here, I hope you wouldn’t mind my commenting here?…Wow!, so much hate in the hearts of men…I’ve been reading now for about an hour…There is much persecution in the world…In defense of others such as African Americans who were just as Israel was in Egypt…they were beaten, raped, hung, starved etc, during slavery era…Many are Christians…Remembering Perpetua in her bravery b/f entering the coliseum in Rome to be executed in front of a stadium full, wow, what a witness for Yeshua G-d that must have been, Then we have Nero who took Christians and used them as lamppost torching them to death, and persecuting many in the name of Jesus (Yeshua). My point, Jews were/are not the only ethnic group being dehumanized in some fashion. Jesus, the King of the Jews paid the ultimate sacrifice and was tortured above all and we can’t even comprehend what he endured, and He did it for all Man kind…First the Jew then the Gentile…G-d had a design in mind…for us all to live as ONE BODY, in Harmony with G-d and His precious son Jesus (Yeshua), the anointed one…We should all come from a mindset and perspective that each had to endure suffering…for in suffering we find the true character and nature of G-d and thru this Jesus is revealed…as much as we argue and fight we will not thwart G-d’s plan…Everyone will live eternally…the question is where?…The Bible OT/NT is the standard of what we should follow and live by. Both sides have reprinted (or whatever the case may be). But the Holy Spirit will give discernment and this, above all Men and re-written/revised doctrine, can be trusted. I am a believing Gentile Christian who has always felt deep compassion and love for G-d’s people…I love them just a I love a lost sinner…but G-d made them HIS chosen regardless what we say or if we like it or not. So instead of all this slander and dissention…why not grab your brother and sister and throw your arms around them and kiss them cheek to cheek giving praise and thanks…We are all guilty in some way…Thanks be to G-d that he loved us enough to send the perfect sacrificial lamb to rescue us…if not for this, we would all be doomed and enslaved for an eternity…
          Josey

  61. No, the Christian scriptures were not ‘written by jews’.

    They were written and compiled decades after Jesus died.

    So when were they written and who by?

    Given the amount of Hebrew phrases and direct translations from the Tanakh (1/3rd of the New Testament is quoting Tanakh), I don’t see how a non-Jew could have written it.

    The letters of Hebrews, James and 1 & 2 Peter are all specifically addressed to Jewish believers in Jesus. Who was also Jewish.

  62. Tabatha you now show your ignorance of the New Testament. All were written by Jews, the final authoratative list of books of the NT was collated later.

    Acts records that thousands and thousands of Jews in Israel followed Jesus as Messiah, including Cohenim.

  63. I never said that there are not Jewish ‘influences’.

    Christianity adopted the far earlier Jewish teaching of ‘love thy neighbour.

    The Christian scriptures were clearly not written by Jews – just look at how much misinformation on Jews there is in it.

    The minute any of the early followers of Jesus affirmed belief in his ‘resurrection’, and later on in his being ‘divine’, they were blatantly contradicting Torah and on the latter point, blaspheming.

    Note: I know Jews who converted to Christianity.
    It has never, and never could, affect my friendship with them.

    But they are happy and proud of their belief in/worship of Jesus.

    They don’t disrespect Judaism by describing AS ‘jewish’ their membership of an entirely separate faith.

  64. YEZE

    Go on – show me where Chabad speak of a ‘second coming’ :) (in the same sense that Christians speak of it)…. :)

    GEV:

    No, I have stated accurately. Jesus never had thousands of *Jewish* followers.
    That’s WHY Paul preached TO the Gentiles and Pagans. Precisely because Jews refused to abandon Torah and instead worship Jesus.

  65. YEZE:

    It is my understanding that the official Chabad position is, and was, that Schneerson was not maschiach.

    I have also read – but in fairness will try to confirm – that the minority of Chabadniks who did affirm that Schneerson was maschiach, were and are in danger of being….. shall we say ‘ex communicated’ for want of a better word.
    Cherem, maybe.

    • As far as I understand it, they don’t announce it publicly for fear of rejection. They’re sort of crypto-Jews in a way. Try finding a leading Lubavitch spokesman who denies that Schneerson was messiah…

  66. Tabatha, Read Acts and you’ll see thousands and thousands did.

    Paul twice turned away from preaching in a local Synagogue but after each time in the next town goes straight back to the Synagogue, seriously read Acts and you’ll see for yourself.

    Paul was supposed to be the apostle to the Gentiles. it was Peter was supposed to be the apostle to the Jews!

  67. Tabatha… one thing I can tell you for certain, one day you will bow (hopefully, voluntarily and with joy) your knees before Yeshua, who will (G-d willing within our lifetime) appear to our nation as the Messiah and the King of Israel. You will look back at this time in your life with regret and sadness (though I do not fault you this – this world is a confusing mess), but hopefully look forward to your future in the Kingdom of HaShem with happiness.

    Shalom.

  68. Guys –

    I would genuinely *love* to stay and continue this discussion, but it’s time for me to head out for the evening.

    Shame we never got around to discussing support for Israel.
    I suspect we might have agreed on a few things :)

  69. GENE:

    I can promise you something faithfully.

    I’m Jewish and I shall never, ever, ‘bow on my knees before yeshua’ – or anyone else.

    You be happy in your Christian worship of Jesus, I’ll be happy in my Judaism :)

  70. Permit me to address Joe Ben Abraham again. I am afraid this is buried by many other excellent posts. I would really like to know Joe’s reasoning for the “airport ban” threat.

    Here is my previous post for Joe or anyone else who knows…

    Joe Ben,

    Thank you for your frank replies. You admited that proclaiming Yeshua Hamashiach to Jews in Israel is legal. You also acknowledged that persecution does not deter Bible-believing, born again Christians from evangelizing Jews in Israel.

    Now you suggest that Israeli law prohibits foreign visitors from entering to Israel to proclaim Yeshua Hamashiach to Jews. Is this what you are saying?

    Thanks everyone including Joe Ben for the interesting replies and comments. Everyone’s contributions are sincerely appreciated.

  71. Ken – I never proclaimed any such thing. I am not a lawyer and have no idea if it is legal or not. I hope it is illegal, because you’ve admitted you are coming here to spread hatred.

    I’ll make sure the authorities are alerted that you, a missionary is coming to Israel under false pretenses of a “visit”, when your true intention is missionary work.

    Thanks, Ken, for posting the online truth about your intentions as opposed to your first post above saying that you were coming on a simple “visit”.

    Missionary means you are working, and you are not allowed to do that without a work visa.

    I’ll do my best to protect my family and my fellow Jews and try to get you arrested and deported without setting foot outside of the airport.

    I to will rather die than bow to any false G-d. I am commanded by Hashem to have no other gods before me, and that includes false messiahs like JC.

    And if I have to die, I’ll take as many enemy with me as I can.

    You missionaries who cannot leave Jews alone disgust me. You hide behind the excuse of scriptures to pretend you spread love, and enjoy getting hatred thrown at you because your book tells you.

    It’s a vicious circle that you can’t break, and probably anti-missionary legislation is the only way to go.

    Again, there is no such thing as a “hebrew christian” or “messiaic jew” – if you believe in jesus you are a christian.

    If you’re a missionary, then you spread the word of jesus, and you are a christian and cannot be a jew.

    If you are a missionary, then by definition you are intolerant and hate other people because they are not like you. your goal is to commit religious genocide….kind of like the islamic extremists who want to convert the world to islam.

    That’s it! Ken – go to Iraq or Afghanistan and do your dirty work there!

    That’s a real challenge for you! You’ll reap such hatred and attacks, you’ll simply be glowing in the glory of the word of the bible.

    Joe

  72. “And if I have to die, I’ll take as many enemy with me as I can.”

    Chill out! Have you lost your marbles, Joe?

    No-one wants to kill you – no-one even wants a fight!

    You need to try some stress management. Maybe go for a run, or take a shower, or something.

    By the way, do you work for Yad L’Achim?

  73. Joe BA, meshigineh dude! So when anyone talks about their religous convictions they are “working” and need a visa? Does that go for everyone or only for the Christians that you seem to hate so much. Could you not see your mental attitude towards Messianic Jews lead you down the path of Teitel taking as many as you can?

    “probably anti-missionary legislation is the only way to go.” You gonna force Messianic Jews to wear a special badge so unsuspecting Israelis know who they are? Sounds disturbingly familar.

  74. Hi Joe,

    You wrote, “Missionary means you are working, and you are not allowed to do that without a work visa.”

    In the Christian faith all of us Christians evangelize, not just so-called “paid professionals.” In fact I am gainfully employed as a computer consultant and support myself. My wife just retired and travels more than I do as a missionary at her own expense.

    We do not need payment to pray for others as do the so-called rabbis at the Wailing Wall. We travel at our own expense. You, therefore, are unable to interfere or prevent our entering Israel without a work visa.

    Is there anything else you think you could do to stop us?

  75. Wow, you’re one persistent jerk. Sorry, but when somebody says you are not welcome in their house and you insist on coming anyway and doing things that they object to, well, as I said, you reap the hatred that you sow.

    Yes, Ken, you are telling me that despite my asking you repeatedly not to come to my home and try to convert my fellow countrymen, you are insisting on doing it.

    If foreigners suddenly came to America, to your state and to your hometown saying out loud that their goal was to turn you and your family and your friends away from Jesus, what kind of reception would you give them?

    If you told them “hey, hold on a second buddy, you are welcome to visit America but please don’t try to convert me and my fellow Americans to Islam/Judaism/Buddhism/Aetheism” would you want them to listen to you?

    Of course you would. But if I bumped into your 18 year old teenage daughter downtown and did my best to convert her to some other religion, you’d be mighty pissed off. If a bunch of us came to your town and tried to get all of you to abandon Jesus, you’d probably meet us with an angry mob.

    You’re not a Christian, because true Christians are full of love and respect for for their men and women. I have met many and many are my friends.

    You also show your ignorance with stupid statements about “payment to pray for others as do the so-called rabbis at the Wailing Wall” – you really don’t know what you’re talking about.

    Again. The only people who believe in “Messianic Jews” are the Christians who call themselves that.

    I know I’m not going to change your minds, since you are brainwashed to begin with to believe that attacking peoples’ beliefs is love. It’s not.

    You missionaries are indeed lower than drug pushers and pimps. Your goal is to commit religious genocide.

    Yes, I’ll do my best to make sure you not allowed into my country, because it is my country and the vast majority of us believe that we have the right to be Jews and stay as Jews, and Christians have the right to be Christians.

    We also believe that NOBODY has the right to try to convert people.

    You are not a welcome guest. You are a a self-admitted rapist of souls who want to steal Jews.

    Ken. Stay home. You are not welcome.

    Joe

    • ” If a bunch of us came to your town and tried to get all of you to abandon Jesus, you’d probably meet us with an angry mob… You missionaries are indeed lower than drug pushers and pimps. Your goal is to commit religious genocide.”

      My oh my, you’re absolutely petrified of Christians, aren’t you Joe? I feel quite sorry for you.

    • ” If a bunch of us came to your town and tried to get all of you to abandon Jesus, you’d probably meet us with an angry mob… ”

      Far from it! We Christians honor the Old Testament command of Yahweh to treat the stranger in our country by the same laws as apply to us. This principle of equality of treatment is the bedrock of American Bible-based law.

      We tolerate all faiths at work here. Let the dialogs continue. There ARE countless groups actively at work to subvert the faith of our fellow believers. But guess what? We do not persecute them or censor them. They enjoy the same legal right to religious free speech as we enjoy. That is the American Way thanks to our Christian founding fathers who enshrined these rights in our First Amendment.

      Christians respect the basic human rights of missionaries of all faiths. So should you. So does most of Israel. That is why we are free to go there to preach Jesus Christ as Israel’s Messiah… and the Israeli legal system protects us. Isn’t this correct?

  76. Chabad tries to get Jews to perform more mitzvot. They are concerned with bringing mashiach. They have nothing to do with Jesus or Christians.

    Christians, on the other hand, especially missionaries and Christians who call themselves “messianic jews”, like to pretend that they are like Chabad.

    Why?

    Because that is the only way they can legitimize themselves.

    The truth is that Christians, especially the ones who call themselves “messianic jews”, are not Jews, nor is their activity anything like Chabad.

    The goal of messianic christians is to convert people – especially Jews – to Christianity. They have no connection or similarities to Chabad at all.

    Read my lips folks: Missionaries are not welcome in Israel! You are disgusting, despicable, vile and evil people who thrive on people hating you when you try and steal our religion.

    We have suffered your hatred and evil ways for 2000 years and will continue to reject them.

    Joe

  77. Neither. I am simply a Jew living in Israel who stumbled across your blog. I never really heard of Yad L’Achim before you people mentioned it, but I’ll definitely check them out and/or send a donation.

    I did a quick google search and found this gem from Ken: “That’s fair. In like manner I – as an evangelical Gentile Christian – will offer my wealth and protection to help the victims of any persecution. That too is the American Way.”

    Hey Ken ! !! We are being persecuted by evangelical missionaries who are pretending that they are Jews and trying to convert us to Christianity!!!

    PLEASE HELP STOP THE PERSECUTION OF BELIEVING JEWS BY THESE “MESSIANIC JEWS”!!!

    We are crying out to you in pain, Ken. Please help stop this now!!!

    Joe

      • Yeze,

        I’ve had only good face-to-face relationships with people of all faiths including devout Roman Catholic priests, Jehovah’s Witnesses at my door and school, SDAs offering classes, atheists and agnostics and skeptics, Mormon missionaries, The Way cult, Jews (religious) of various types and Messianic Jews as well as New Agers, Hindus, Sikhs, and Moslems. I can honestly say that I have been most fortunate in my personal life in that I seem to get along well with almost everyone. For some reason people find me likeable.

        On the other hand the only religious people with whom I’ve ever had serious personality conflicts were ironically religious conservatives… one an independent charismatic and the other an extreme separatistic fundamentalist. I have forgiven them long ago for their unkind words and pray God’s rich blessings upon them. They are in God’s hands, and we will be in God’s Kingdom forever in friendship in the future.

        I have been blessed with sharing the Gospel with many people including several Jews (by birth and by faith) who later accepted Yeshua as the Messiah, Lord, and Saviour. I am also friends with Jews (by birth) and gentiles whose ministry is to win Jews to Yeshua.

        Won’t the Kingdom of Heaven be wonderful! Imagine so many brothers and sisters from diverse backgrounds united around the Lamb fellowshipping and celebrating for an eternity. Amen.

  78. Busted shmusted. Are you guys that thick that you don’t know that there are other anti-missionary organizations?

    Yes, I have had unpleasant experiences with missionaries and Jews for Jesus in the past.

    • Do enlighten us Joe BA, who are you then Jews for Judaism, Lev L’Achim, The Red Line?

      Have your experiences with missionaries been as unpleasant as Ami Ortiz experiences with his anti-missionary sympathizers?

    • Well if you work for another anti-missionary organisation in Israel then why are you saying you’re going to give a donation to Yad L’Achim? If I work for Pepsi then I don’t donate to Coca Cola. I think your employers have cause for concern.

    • RedLine? JewsforJudaism? Yad? Do you know if any of these actually believe that persuading Israeli Jews that JESUS is the Messiah is illegal in Israel?

      Christians respect the basic human rights of missionaries of all faiths. So should you. So does most of Israel. That is why we are free to go there to preach Jesus Christ as Israel’s Messiah… and the Israeli legal system protects us. Isn’t this correct?

  79. Yeze – your illogical analogies give me serious doubts about your ability to convince anybody of anything, let alone that JC is/was the messiah.

    If I give to the American Cancer Society you’re telling me I should not give to the oncology ward at my local public hospital?

    Are you really trying to equate rights organizations with soft drinks?

    Are you telling us we should only give to one charity, since they all compete with each other for our funding?

    Are your arguments for messianism as weak?

    Joe

    • Joe, I think what you are saying is that you heard of this website on that of an anti-missionary site and that said website is not Yad’s website. I can appreciate that others wonder about your relation to any anti-missionary groups. I personally do not care, but my concern is for telling the truth.

      So I ask you again… Is there anything any anti-missionary group can legally do to prevent my entering your country to proclaim Jesus as Israel’s Messiah? I think not.

    • “rights organizations” what Yad L’Achim, a rights organization? What rights are Yad L’Achim advocating? They are a rights-depriving organisation.

      Seriously, who do you work for/volunteer for? Why are you being so coy about this? Are you ashamed of your employers or are they ashamed of you?

  80. Ken – I’m not a lawyer, so don’t ask me. My answer is I have no idea, and you already know that I would support legislation making missionary work illegal.

    Yeze – you again totally ignored my point – I give to all organizations I see fit and many that duplicate work. There is no coca cola or pepsi in there, since I’m sure you give to more than one charity.

    I work offline from the organization I referred to, and have the right to keep its name to myself. Sorry if you don’t like that, but I happen to not like missionaries who try to convert Jews to Christianity. I also despise Christians who pretend that they are Jews and refuse to call themselves “messianic Christians” – which is what they are.

    Calling yourself a “messianic Jew” and preaching about Jesus is simply bearing false witness. It’s a sin. It’s a lie. It’s misleading and misrepresenting yourself as something you are not.

    Yeze and Ken – you already know that most Jews in Israel are opposed to missionaries and the attempt by Christians to convert Jews to Christianity. You already know that anytime we hear the term “messianic Jew” we know that it is simply Christians pretending that they are Jews.

    Yet despite our opposition and our request that you do not try to convert us, despite us telling you the pain and suffering it causes us, you continue to insist that you have the right to preach to us, to try and convert us.

    For Jews, trying to convert us to Christianity is the ultimate hate-filled act you could commit.

    Ken – Yeze does not care, but I hope that you do. Think about the pain and hatred you are causing by trying to convert us. You may think you have the “right” to “practice” your religion, but do you have the right to inflict such pain and suffering on people who do not want you?

    I repeat – the entire premise of being a missionary is that you have no respect for other religions and you do not believe that other people have the right to their religion.

    Ken. Stay if you admit that you simply can’t respect other people when you are in Israel, then stay home. You are guest in the house of Israel when you are here – do not behave like a boor and insult your hosts.

    Joe

    • Which anti-missionary organisation in Israel do you work/volunteer for Joe? You have told us you do work with one other than Yad L’Achim, but won’t specify who. You accuse others of ignoring you, but you repeatedly ignore this question. Why?

    • Joe,

      It grieves and truly hurts me to read the following from you:
      “Yet despite our opposition and our request that you do not try to convert us, despite us telling you the pain and suffering it causes us, you continue to insist that you have the right to preach to us, to try and convert us.

      For Jews, trying to convert us to Christianity is the ultimate hate-filled act you could commit.

      Ken – Yeze does not care, but I hope that you do. Think about the pain and hatred you are causing by trying to convert us.”

      I don’t want to hurt anybody’s feelings. You my heart. I believe Jesus is the Messiah and am sincere. I realize that for you and for many others like you — and for many muslims (but not all) and for many militant atheist/secularists (but not all) and for many members old “state church” dead religion perversions of Biblical Christianity (but not all) that it causes grief when evangelical, born again Bible believers proclaim Jesus as the only Way to God. I know it surely angers and sometimes freightens or causes inner pain for those who understand that we are proclaiming their current faith as false and out of favor with G-d. I know that, but I don’t try to cause it. Most people of all faiths do not feel the intensity of anger that you seem too.

      Apostle Paul warned against preaching the message of the Yeshua without love. “Though I speak with the tongue of men or of angels and have not love it profits me nothing.” And he specifically wrote that some people are preaching the Gospel maliciously to cause harm. I am not one of those. May my proclaimation of Yeshua reflect only G-d’s love for His Jewish people.

      So here is my question. I have asked this before on other forums to Jews who reject Jesus as Messiah. I asked, “Since I do not want to cause my Jewish friends pain, but I am obligated by divine duty and divine love to proclaim Yeshua to Jews, how might I do so in a most kind and gentle manner?” Sadly the only answer was, “Do not speak to any Jews about Jesus.” This is something no Christian can do and obey G-d. Have you any advice? I am sincere and wish to disturb no one and cause no or minimal emotional pain. Thank you, Joe.

      • “Sadly the only answer was, “Do not speak to any Jews about Jesus.” This is something no Christian can do and obey G-d. Have you any advice? I am sincere and wish to disturb no one and cause no or minimal emotional pain. Thank you, Joe.”

        You are correct, Ken, you CAN’T stop teaching others about Yeshua, especially Jews. The only advice that I can give you is to educate yourself about Yeshua the devout Jew and Jewish Messiah, who was, is and will be THE devout Torah and covenant faithful JEW, and try not to put a stumbling block to another Jew or offend him by disparaging his Judaism in any way or making Yeshua looks like he wants nothing to do with Judaism (either of his day or of today). When it comes to the Jewish people, Yeshua himself should be your ONLY offense and stumbling block.

      • I’m saying the ones who are violently opposed to Messianic Jews are, or think Messianic Jews should be stoned for apostasy are – yes.

      • Yeze,

        Please help me understand your analogy with hostage takers and those who persecute believers in Yeshua the Messiah. I understand the comparison with hostage takers, but who exactly are the hostages? Is it the souls of other average Jews? And as in the Stockholm Syndrome, do the “victims” try to gain favor with and identify with their captors? If so that would explain a lot… about centuries of Jewish mistreatment of Christian Jews and Gentiles. They fear the rejection of their so-called Jewish religious and cultural leadership.

        No matter what, we who know Yeshua as Lord and Savior rejoice in the privilege of sharing Him with everyone including the family of Israel. Social rejection has no power over us when we have experienced the living G-d Himself.

      • “If so that would explain a lot… about centuries of Jewish mistreatment of Christian Jews and Gentiles.”

        Ken, what are you talking about, who have Jews have been mistreating for CENTURIES? Gentiles and Christian Jews? I think you have it reversed – are you sure you didn’t mean to say “Centuries Christian/Gentile mistreatment of Jews AND Christian Jews (converts/moranos/conversos/forced converts)”? Because that would be a far more accurate statement.

      • Ken – it is in the power of the many prominent religious leaders of Judaism to call for an end to the persecution of Messianic Jews – instead there are some who inflame the situation.

        Some Messianic Jews try cope with this by seeking sympathy with their captors: those who try to shackle followers of Yeshua and judge them according to their empty version of God’s Torah.

        They will defend those who attack them from “outsiders” in a bid to find common ground and identify with their persecutors. This should be recognised for what it is: a survival mechanism, and definitely not evidence of love for one’s fellow Jew.

      • “Some Messianic Jews try cope with this by seeking sympathy with their captors: those who try to shackle followers of Yeshua and judge them according to their empty version of God’s Torah.”

        Yeze… what are you talking about? I don’t care about ANYONE’s sympathy! But of course you would say what you did because you automatically view those who are traditional and coventant-faithful Jews as BACKWARD, as your comment about them following “Empty Torah” so nicely illustrates. You, my friend, have a nice classic supercessionist mindset and have no clue about Jews, other than some caricatures you base on a few ultra-Orthodox nutcases.

        I think I know why – you have been so detached from the real, breathing Jewish community, that the only good Jew to you is a Jew is as secular or Christian Evengelical as you are and looks down on the Orthodox as “those Pharisees”. Fourth generation Messianic, I read somewhere? Usually, especially in your case since, but your own admission, you care about neither Shabbat nor anything else Torah observance related, this means that you are probably well-churched for a few generations, with many intermarriages / mixing in between and likely have never set foot inside a real synagogue with real Jews in it.

        • Gene that is an impressive rant there, did you breathe!
          All your assumptions about Yeze are incorrect, I guess you need to disqualify him in your own mind rather than struggle with the issues he is challenging you about. You ignore “version of God’s Torah” and jump to accusations of supercessionism, in order to characterise him as seeing Jewish people as backward and him not being a real Jew anyway. You put up a good fight usually, but this is a bit below the belt.

      • Fourth generation Messianic, I read somewhere? Usually, especially in your case since, but your own admission, you care about neither Shabbat nor anything else Torah observance related,

        But funny how your assumption about Messianic Jews is that they inevitably intermarry, and then based on this assumption (and nothing else!) you discredit me for that!!. Why are you a Messianic Jew exactly if you have such negative assumptions about Messianic Jews?

        this means that you are probably well-churched for a few generations, with many intermarriages / mixing in between and likely have never set foot inside a real synagogue with real Jews in it.

        So Gene is as anti-Gentile as those who he’s been defending so long – this explains a lot!!!

        Your comment about “mixing in” (with Gentiles, no doubt) is disgusting and racist, and we won’t tolerate it. You should apologise.

    • Joe, I’m Jewish and I believe Yeshua is the Messiah. When I came to faith in him I didn’t lose the ability to speak Hebrew, celebrate the festivals, keep Shabbat or answer a question with a question. I didn’t get my bris reversed either! So you’d better get used to it coz the 10-15,000 Messianic Jews living in Israel are there to stay. They have the right to explain their religious beliefs to you just as you have the right to explain yours to them: that’s what makes Israel a democracy. As has been said before, if you’d prefer to live somewhere where you wouldn’t have such freedom – try Iran.

  81. Joe, I’m Jewish and I believe Yeshua is the Messiah. When I came to faith in him I didn’t lose the ability to speak Hebrew, celebrate the festivals, keep Shabbat or answer a question with a question. I didn’t get my bris reversed either! So you’d better get used to it coz the 10-15,000 Messianic Jews living in Israel are there to stay. They have the right to explain their religious beliefs to you just as you have the right to explain yours to them: that’s what makes Israel a democracy. As has been said before, if you’d prefer to live somewhere where you wouldn’t have such freedom – try Iran.

  82. Gene,

    I wrote:
    “If so that would explain a lot… about centuries of Jewish mistreatment of Christian Jews and Gentiles.”

    You replied:

    “Ken, what are you talking about, who have Jews have been mistreating for CENTURIES? Gentiles and Christian Jews? I think you have it reversed – are you sure you didn’t mean to say “Centuries Christian/Gentile mistreatment of Jews AND Christian Jews (converts/moranos/conversos/forced converts)”? Because that would be a far more accurate statement.”

    Gene,

    Interesting observation you make. I really mean what I wrote about non-Christian Jews’ persecution of both Jewish and Gentile believers for centuries… since year 30! The suffering and rejection of Messianic Jews by some in the larger Jewish community is nothing new. This has always happened.

    I suspect your early years in the Ukraine as a Jew victimized by Gentile Orthodox members and by Communist haters may leave you the impression that persecution is only one way. I don’t want to dwell on this fact. (This is definitely not the forum for it.) I say forgive and show love to anyone who persecutes us and bury the past 2,000 years of anti-Christian persecution. Besides the ones who persecute Jews ethnically also persecute us Gentile believers. God is the ultimate target here.

    Hope this clarified my post.

    • “…non-Christian Jews’ persecution of … Gentile believers for centuries… since year 30!”

      Ken, what historical evidence will you present to support your statement that Jews have been persecuting non-Jewish Christians “for centuries”?

      “I say forgive and show love to anyone who persecutes us and bury the past 2,000 years of anti-Christian persecution. ”

      I buried and I forgave those who wrongly personally. But I am not going to forgive on behalf other Jewish people – it’s up to them do so. After 2000 years of hatred, expulsion and murder in the name of Christ, it’s very difficult for them to embrace the FAITH of their persecutors, don’t you think?

      “Besides the ones who persecute Jews ethnically also persecute us Gentile believers. ”

      Who was the founder of Protestanism and whom did he persecute?

      • Gene,

        I don’t care to discuss the history of Jewish persecution of other people here. While Israel has existed only since 1948, Jewish individuals have existed since way back. It is they of whom I speak. We cannot discuss this as it will serve no useful purpose and possibly lead to charges of blood libel. Gasp!

        As for Martin Luther he was boldly anti-Semitic and he was not the father of Protestantism. In fact his followers also persecuted Christians. (I am not saying a Lutheran is not a Christian.) Before Luther there have always been true believers bucking the state church whether in Rome or Constantinople or Antioch etc. But yes your point is well taken that it is possible for a true Christian to be anti-Semitic just a true Christian can persecute other Christians.

        The point I was making was that the Stockholm Syndrome would account for some of this anti-Christian violence and persecution by Jews who otherwise would be more like us in America…. tolerant and easy-going. You see God chose America for an example to the rest of the world. The USA is a shinning city upon a hill, created by Christian founding fathers and based upon Biblical values. I believe God has a special plan for America and tolerance, religious freedom, and equality for Jews is part of God’s plan. The American was largely funded by Jewish money incidently and the modern Zionist movement which led to the restoration of Israel was started in the late 1800s by a born again, American evangelical.

        As you can tell from some of my other posts here I believe strongly in care very much for religious liberty and freedom of speech. I believe this is part of America’s mission to the world and part of God’s plan. And ofcourse God used American money and lives to spread the Gospel worldwide since the 1700s.

        America is sinning now. We are in a battle for the morality and national ethics of the nation. America is pouring judgement upon herself by abortion and homosexuality, pornography, and easy divorce. Yet I believe that this too is part of Messiah’s plan, and that there will be a restoration.

  83. ‘You ignore “version of God’s Torah” and jump to accusations of supercessionism,”

    Gev, don’t forget to add words “their empty version”.

    “l your assumptions about Yeze are incorrect, I guess you need to disqualify him in your own mind rather than struggle with the issues he is challenging you about. ”

    I would love to hear Yeze whole story in detail. He can email via the contact form on http://www.bethavinu.org.

    “You put up a good fight usually, but this is a bit below the belt.”

    I am still in training.

    • I would love to hear Yeze whole story in detail. He can email via the contact form on http://www.bethavinu.org.

      I stand by my words 100%. A Judaism in which you get stoned to death for believing in Yeshua is an absolute disgrace.

      A Judaism where you don’t – that I’ve got time for.

      If your Judaism doesn’t including murdering believers in Yeshua, then you’ve got nothing to feel defensive about.

      What do you disagree with in that, Gene?

      • Yeze… one more thing. You speak of this persecution as if something strange is happening to the believing community in Israel or elsewhere, as if it is something that we must work hard to halt. Do you actually think that it can be stopped by your “activism” or by merely “raising of awareness”? It will not stop or even slow down until Yeshua returns. In fact, it may get worse, much worse, before it is all over. Do you not know the words of our Master to his talmidim?

        “And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake” [Mt. 10:22]

        Now, since we are hated for Yeshua’s sake and not at all because of ourselves, what should our reaction be to them that despise us (remembering that they really hate Yeshua, not us, and they only do this because they just DON’T KNOW WHO HE REALLY IS)? Ridicule? Name-calling? Denunciation? Lawsuits? Rejection of Judaism? Rallying the Evangelicals to pressure the Israeli government to clam down on the Orthodox extremists? Arouse sympathy of the seculars?

        Is this really what the earliest Jewish believers did? I suppose not, since I can find no record of it in Brit Chadasha (New Testament), can you? I can only find exhortations to bless, pray and forgive our fellow Jews that they may know Him, and pray for the persecuted followers that they may be strong and be good witnesses as JEWISH talmidim of the Jewish Messiah in the midst of hatred that is really directed at Him, not us.

        Is this being too weak and rolling over before the Jewish “fascists”, having a “Stockholm Syndrome” episode, in your mind?

      • . You speak of this persecution as if something strange is happening to the believing community in Israel or elsewhere, as if it is something that we must work hard to halt. Do you actually think that it can be stopped by your “activism” or by merely “raising of awareness”? It will not stop or even slow down until Yeshua returns. In fact, it may get worse, much worse, before it is all over. Do you not know the words of our Master to his talmidim?

        So let’s sit back and allow grown men to blow up teenage boys, bullies to beat up their classmates, teachers to spy on their pupils and the police to interrogate children for their faith! That is a great idea! Surely in this way all Israel will be saved!

        Let’s ignore that bit in the Bible where it says seek justice for the oppressed, or where Paul instructs Timothy to lead a quiet and simple life, and instead do our darndest to increase the persecution against us. Let’s submit to the same religious authorities that deny our Messiah and our right to follow him, and let’s accept Yad L’Achim’s definition of mi yehudi.

        Must not criticise – our loyalty is to our nation and not to the subversive New Testament teachings….

        And you wonder why the Church was so quiet in the Holocaust? For precisely this way of thinking, Gene.

  84. “Gev, don’t forget to add words “their empty version”.”
    Yes Gene, but in my reading of the comment it is still their version not the actual Torah that Yeze is writing about.

    “I am still in training.” Fair nuff’ – we can all get a blood rush sometimes.

  85. “A Judaism where you don’t [get stoned to death for believing in Yeshua] – that I’ve got time for.”

    Really, I thought you had no time for Judaism of any sort, Yeze? In fact, I clearly remember you recently stating that a Jew who believes in Yeshua leaves Judaism [which is strange, since I know of many Jewish believers throughout history who did nothing of the sort, even under severe pressure). You may know of them too.

    • I never said “I have no time for Judaism”, I said what Messianic Jews practise isn’t official Judaism. And it’s not, and you said you agreed with me. So don’t then try to turn the comment around back on me!

  86. Gene, you ask: “Do you actually think that it can be stopped by your “activism” or by merely “raising of awareness”?”

    Yes, it can be slowed down and people brought to justice for acts of violence and intimidation.

    This verse “And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake” [Mt. 10:22] is an explanation of why disciples of Yeshua will face persecution, it is not however a Messianic inshallah where we have to just do nothing for others, where one part of the body suffers the whole body suffers!

    In my opinion, doing nothing is not a Biblical option.

  87. Ken wrote:
    “So here is my question. I have asked this before on other forums to Jews who reject Jesus as Messiah. I asked, “Since I do not want to cause my Jewish friends pain, but I am obligated by divine duty and divine love to proclaim Yeshua to Jews, how might I do so in a most kind and gentle manner?” Sadly the only answer was, “Do not speak to any Jews about Jesus.” This is something no Christian can do and obey G-d. Have you any advice? I am sincere and wish to disturb no one and cause no or minimal emotional pain. Thank you, Joe.”

    Ken – you have no way out that does not cause pain to the Jews. Your Catch-22 means that you have to stand in front of me and tell me about Jesus, despite me already telling you I’m not interested and don’t want to hear it.

    The only thing I can think of is commission a public survey with some kind of question phrased like (and you’ll have to talk to a social science polling expert, not me) “Do you as a Jew feel offense and hurt when a Christian approaches you to proclaim Jesus as the messiah and attempt to convert you to Christianity?”

    Just like I’m not a lawyer, I’m not a polling expert. If the results come back with the majority saying “no, we do not take offense” then I’ll have no argument with you coming over here and standing on a soapbox. If I happen to walk by I will definitely be offended and I’ll definitely let you and any other passersby know my objections.

    However, if the majority say “yes, we will be offended and hurt” then what are you going to do?

    Joe

    • “I’m not a lawyer, I’m not a polling expert”

      But you are a Yad L’Achim activist? Or Jews for Judaism? Or Magen League? Which one?

    • Joe,

      I am willing to share the Messiah with everyone including Israeli Jews. This is an “inalienable right” from God, not from government. Polls don’t change God’s gift of freedom of religious speech including proselytism.

      So what would I do if we were next door neighbors or buddies at work and wanted to discuss Yeahua as your rejected Messiah? If you wanted to discuss this, I would gladly do so. If you asked me not to, we change the subject. What could be more respectful?

      Yeshua told us we are under no obligation to preach to everybody. Didn’t He tell us, “Don’t cast your pearls before swine. Do not give that which is holy to dogs.”? Didn’t He remain silent at His trial? Didn’t He tell His disciples to leave a city that rejected them when He sent them on a short term mission trip in Israel? “Shake their dust off of your sandals” He said.

      (I am not likening you to a swine or a dog. No offense intended.)

      I have shared Yeshua with some of my Jewish friends. Some asked me to stop. Others gladly continued the discussion. Some even came to me to ask. I honored the wishes of those who were willing to talk.

      One young man later became a believer in Yeshua and I heard he joined the staff of a Messianic evangelistic team. Another man for whom I have respect helped develop the Israeli atomic bomb. He was my honors math professor and my wife I and I knew his family for years and even baby sat for them. Later in life he also became a believer in Jesus. We have some interesting conversations over a period of about five years.

      I don’t know why but many people seem to like me. I have friends with whom I can discuss our different religious and political views. They don’t persecute me or burn my car or invade my church. They don’t beat me or threaten my famliy. They know I respect them; people can tell. This kind of free exchange of ideas is possible anywhere… especially in Israel.

      Let me ask you something. Did you think I would force you to listen to me? I don’t do that.

      Or are you trying to censor me from talking to other Jews about Messiah Jesus?

      TX for hanging in there with us.

      • Correction–

        I have shared Yeshua with some of my Jewish friends. Some asked me to stop. Others gladly continued the discussion. Some even came to me to ask. I honored the wishes of everyone.

        instead of

        “I have shared Yeshua with some of my Jewish friends. Some asked me to stop. Others gladly continued the discussion. Some even came to me to ask. I honored the wishes of those who were willing to talk”

  88. Kevin – by definition if you accept Jesus as the messiah then you are a Christian, not a Jew.
    It is theologically impossible to be both. I have yet to meet any person who keeps all 613 mitzvot and at the same time says they believe in JC.

    I’m just another believing Jew who is setting the record straight: Messianic Christians are not Jews and cannot be Jews. You might carry out some Jewish rituals, you might speak Hebrew (as do a million Muslims and Christians), but you are by definition not Jewish.

    • I’m just another believing Jew who is setting the record straight

      If you work for Yad L’Achim, then you’re not “just another believing Jew.” You’re a Jew who pretends that harassing, spying on and causing chaos amongst Messianic Jews, and making sure Jews and Arabs don’t marry each other, is the essence of your religion.

  89. So Joe BA considering you deference to a majority poll what is your reaction to the 1988 Dahaf poll which found 78 percent of Israelis favored granting oleh status to Messianics on the same basis as to other Jews?

  90. My reaction is that 1988 was 21 years ago and the Israeli population has changed by several million since then.
    I also have no idea what questions the poll posed, what skew they had, what biased weighting factors were used, nor who commissioned the poll.

    So I obviously can’t give any value or comment to a poll that is decades out of date.

    • Joe BA, just goes to show one of the weakness of polls in regulating long term policy then doesn’t it, they change over time. In any case I’d be suprised if it had changed that dramatically. In any case there has been a lot of postive reporting of Messianic Jews in the Israeli media recently.

      Anyway polls aside, I’d rather stick to the virtues of human rights and allow Israeli citizens who believe Yeshua is their Messiah to be allowed the full rights they enjoy in a democratic, not theocratic state. They should not be forced to shut up because of their beliefs, they should have as much right to defend and promote their views as anyone else such as Chabad and the Breslovers in a free society.

  91. “Must not criticise – our loyalty is to our nation and not to the subversive New Testament teachings…. And you wonder why the Church was so quiet in the Holocaust? For precisely this way of thinking, Gene.”

    Yeze, I’ve read the history of German Church during the Holocaust extensively. Their indifference to the plight of Jews was brought on not so much by blind loyalty to the Third Reich, as by the preceding centuries of systemic theological antisemitism and anti-Judaism of the German Christians (and we all know which theologian we can thank for that) that Hitler was able to capitalize on quite well. The Church by in large simply didn’t care much about Jews to begin with, but saw their plight as G-‘d just punishment on them not to be interfered with.

    • “Their indifference to the plight of Jews was brought on not so much by blind loyalty to the Third Reich, as by the preceding centuries of systemic theological antisemitism and anti-Judaism of the German Christians (and we all know which theologian we can thank for that) that Hitler was able to capitalize on quite well. The Church by in large simply didn’t care much about Jews to begin with, but saw their plight as G-’d just punishment on them not to be interfered with.”

      Exactly – now apply the same moral standards to organised Judaism’s treatment of Messianic Jews as you apply to organised Christianity’s treatment of Jews.

  92. Joe: sorry but I’m Jewish and I believe in Jesus, get used to it. Had you not noticed that it’s impossible to keep all 613 mitzvot as some of them need to be done in the temple?

  93. Joe, is Leonard Cohen Jewish or a Buddhist? What about the growing numbers of HinJus or Israeli Satanists? What about Jewish atheists? Or is it just Jews who believe that a rabbi from Bethlehem whom Talmud says died at Pesach is Moshiach, that you have a problem with?

  94. Gene & Joe, we think you’d be great in helping us to crack down on religious minorities. How do we contact you?

  95. A poster here wrote:
    ” I’ve read the history of German Church during the Holocaust extensively. Their indifference to the plight of Jews was brought on not so much by blind loyalty to the Third Reich, as by the preceding centuries of systemic theological antisemitism and anti-Judaism of the German Christians”

    I must disagree. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Bible believing, evangelicals in the Confession Church and in many independent churches actively opposed Hitler while only the liberal dead mainline Protestant churches winked at the persecution.

    When Christian pastors opposed Hitler or did not support him enthusiastically enough, they were drafted into the Wehrmacht as combat medics. Fortunately God used even this evil for good as these wonderful pastors were able to procliam Jesus Christ to wounded and dying Germans who otherwise would not have listened.

  96. Oh and did I mention the countless numbers of European Christians of all nationalities who willingly placed their lives and their families in peril to save the lives of Jews? And did I mention that after the war, Christians visited their former Nazi captors in allied prison camps with gifts of chocolate and kindness. Some of these former Nazis were overwhelmed with love and forgiveness and some of these even came to faith in Christ.

    • If this report is true, this guy was working for the Christian Evangelical Joshua Fund, while mascaraing as a Charedi. This reminds of the recent story of that Hispanic fellow that pretending to be Jewish. Does end (evangelism) justifies the means (deception)? I don’t have any intention of doing that if I ever aliyah into Israel or pretend to be someone I am not.

      • Does end (evangelism) justifies the means (deception)?

        Alright then, try being openly Messianic in Israel and see what happens!

      • “Yes but Gene that is exactly what they contend you are!”

        Ah, Gev – that’s exactly my point. If they accuse me of something falsely, then I am suffering for His name – this is something to rejoice about, not lament (1 Peter 4:13). But if I am doing something wrong (as in being deceptive, as that “charedi” fella supposedly was), that’s a whole different ballgame!

      • ‘Alright then, try being openly Messianic in Israel and see what happens!”

        Yeze, what’s your point? If they allowed to aliyah into Israel, you would hide the fact that you are a believer while in Israel? I thought that you of all people would have the bravado to be open about it.

      • Yeze, what’s your point? If they allowed to aliyah into Israel, you would hide the fact that you are a believer while in Israel? I thought that you of all people would have the bravado to be open about it.

        Being open in a closed society isn’t always possible. So should the individual be open in a closed society and be persecuted, or should the individual close himself up and hide from the closed society and live a life of fear?

        The answer is neither: the onus is on the society to open up and stop being closed, not on the individual to adapt himself for no reason.

    • “What’s the difference between yourself and a Yad L’Achim activist then, Gene?”

      This is fun. Well, first compare the similarities between myself and an imaginary YL activist:

      1. Jewish
      2. Zealous for HaShem
      3. Zealous for my people to stay Jewish and not become Evangelicals, Catholics, Mormons, JW, Buddhists, or atheists. (not a value judgmental on these faiths or faith expressions, just I don’t believe that this is G-d’s intention for Jews to adopt any of these things as their own).
      4. Love Israel
      5. Teach people about Messiah (see below)

      Now, the differences:

      1. Believing that Yeshua is that Messiah, not someone else
      2. Knowing that Christian Gentiles, Christian Jews and Messianic Jews who believe in Yeshua believe in true Messiah too, and that they are not idolaters (except perhaps in some streams of Christianity) that must be expelled from the land.

      • Okay:

        #1 sure
        #2 how far are you willing to take that idea? Would you assertively express your opposition to someone claiming that Christians/Messianic Jews should be expelled from Israel?

      • Gene,

        This is all confusing. What is this discussion about really?

        I am an American. I have free speech rights and the right to dwell securely in my home. If someone tried to violate my free speech rights, I would start World War III, getting Christian civil rights law firms, politicians, and the media involved. That would be my pleasure and my ministry… to fight oppression.

        Do not deny Christ. You don’t have to. Be bold and take a hit for the King and Messiah. If you die, so what? To live is Christ and to die is gain.

        Okay, what are you guys debating here? TX

      • “#2 how far are you willing to take that idea? Would you assertively express your opposition to someone claiming that Christians/Messianic Jews should be expelled from Israel?”

        I would, but not on religious grounds, rather on the grounds that no Jew should be expelled from Israel, but even that those Jews who are criminals should stay and be punished by our own people, instead of being handed over to foreigners (as is indeed currently the law in Israel, citizens are not extradited).

      • What if a rabbi were to agree with you, but then suggest that Messianic Jews and Christians should be dealt with internally as criminals?

      • Ken: we’re discussing whether there’s an alternative for Messianic Jews to a) suffering persecution without being assertive and b) hiding away with your beliefs. I believe there is a 3rd option, which is to call for society to adapt to Messianic Jews as well as Messianic Jews adapting to their own societies (which in Israel they do).

      • “What if a rabbi were to agree with you, but then suggest that Messianic Jews and Christians should be dealt with internally as criminals?”

        Only if they commit criminal acts or knowingly violate on the law of the land.

      • What if they didn’t, but incited others to do so, or perverted the course of justice in order to blame the victims for crimes against them?

      • “What if they didn’t, but incited others to do so, or perverted the course of justice in order to blame the victims for crimes against them?”

        Then, I would like to see a trial and let the facts be presented for everyone to see and let the accusers come forward. This wouldn’t be any different than if say Christians did the same to Jews.

  97. First look at this site. Interesting and confusing at the same time.

    Alot of fuss. No one can convert anyone. You can discuss religion till the cows come home, plead your ideas, stress your point, argue your proofs, yet, faith if it means anything must be comprehended not blindly but with reason and logic. What is that old cliche – You can bring a horse to the water but you can’t make him drink (unless of course you bribe him, then again there are many, including orthodox, that go into religion for material gain.

    With the paranoia on this site you would think that no one had any brains or reasoning, nor will power, and can easily be “forced” to believe something just by speaking about it or discussing it. Grow up. Their are a Jews who do not believe in God or religion, or could not care less to believe that the Messiah is a good fountain pen, does that make them dangerous to discuss with? Is there any logic in religion??? All passion and no brains.

    I do believe that Jews can believe what they want and can discuss with passion what they want, all the taboos too, anti missionaries are missionaries too- they have their religious agenda like all else, and as long as the do not resort to violence or hurtful behavior and deeds they are within their rights, as are those who do the same in the opposite direction. But in the end give the guys a brain, some of the arguments here are so stupid and simplistic. Humankind is far more brave, or so I hope.

      • Yeze,

        You might consider upgrading the format of this site. Many other sites provide “threaded discussion topics” showing graphically which replies fit with which prior posts. This is very helpful in keeping our conversations on topic.

        Donna,

        Have you ever talked to real life Jews? ‘-) You might find their conversations hard for some Gentiles to follow.

        Also, Donna, the paranoia may or may not be the right word. After all there really are Jewish religious leaders in Israel calling for the expulsion of Messianic Jews, denying them citizenship, and taking away their free speech rights. And there already are a few nuts who regularly commit hate crimes against churches and members who are Jews and get away with it in Israel. That is present reality.

        I bet you are a Gentile!

  98. When evangelizing in hostile areas of Israel, where free speech rights are violated, I recommend having one or more third parties nearby to video record any possible police or crowd violations.

    This is how an American evangelist protects his team. He ALWAYS records his evangelistic forays.

    >>> We had the right to do this, but a cop can essentially do whatever he wants because he has a gun and the authority of the State. I told our team that we should move to another part of the pier to be on the safe side. I also encouraged our cameraman to always record these incidents—just in case. <<<

    http://stonethepreacher.com/2006/07/20/ev-tips-guys-with-guns-always-win.html

  99. Ken, just what do you mean by “hostile areas of Israel, where free speech rights are violated”?

    Would you come to my town where 90% are religious Jews and the other 10% are secular who chose to live in a religious community?

    If so, why would you come? I can guarantee you that we do NOT want missionaries invading our town and trying to convert us. We find it offensive. We would be insulted. You would bring hate to our town, not love.

    Give that, would you still insist on coming to claim you have some “freedom of the right to try to convert Jews”?

    If we do not want missionaries and if we do not want to hear what you have to say about Jesus, why do you consider us hostile?
    Why do you think we are infringing on your American “freedom of speech” for an individual which is not the law hear and is not constitutionally enshrined?
    Why do you think that American law applies in Israel? I guarantee you it does not. Israeli law rules here, and there is wide public consensus that missionaries are contrary to the public good in Israel.
    If the Knesset votes in a law to ban missionary activity, that is because the national religion of our country is Judaism, and while we protect the rights of religious minorities we do not think anybody has the right to actively promote that Jews should leave Judaism and adopt Christianity.

    When you visit here you are a guest in our house and you should behave accordingly.

    Missionary activity is NOT accepted in Israel. It is rude, offensive, threatening, and inspires hate. If you choose to pursue it, I again state that I support you being arrested and deported from my country. You can then go home to America and be happy that you fullfilled whatever it is that your religion tells you to do.

    You will be in Israel, not America. You must behave by Israeli standards, not American standards.

    Joe

    • Joe, you’ve been at this for three months now, and no-one is convinced by your persistent bigotry. I don’t think Yad L’Achim are getting value for money!

  100. Joe Bin Avraham,

    I enjoy discussing evangelism with you. Permit to respond to various matters you’ve raised. Your excellent coments and querries are prefaced by >>>. I believe I understand your feelings and emotions. I wonder if you understand mine in reply. What do you think of these replies?

    >>> Would you come to my town where 90% are religious Jews and the other 10% are secular who chose to live in a religious community?
    Ken comments: Yes, I would gladly come. All people are precious to God. If only one solitary human being had sinned and all others were righteous, don’t you agree that Messiah (yours or mine) would offer that sinner a chance to repent? A chance to be forgiven and transformed? Surely your Messiah would want him or her to have an opportunity to repent and believe. So does mine. That is why Christians gladly go wherever there are people. All of us are sinners and all of us need a change of heart… including the people in your town. Yes, I would gladly come.

    >>> If so, why would you come? I can guarantee you that we do NOT want missionaries invading our town and trying to convert us.
    Ken comments:
    I acknowledge that you do not want missionaries coming to your town. Do you acknowledge that there might be atleast ONE of your neighbors who want and would welcome a visit from a Christian evangelist? Since you do not speak for everyone unless you have a survey of 100% of the town. Do you?

    Since there are possibly several souls open to hearing my message, I would come. It would not be an “invasion”, but a kind and friendly visit.

    Even if 100% of the town voted against missionary visits, I might still come anyway! Why? Because such a vote may be coerced and phoney. I might come just to defend my religious freedoms. I would come to prove that I can as a matter of human rights and free speech. After all the next week someone in your town may change his/her mind and want a missionary. I will be there.

    Lastly I would be challenged to come to speak in public to proclaim Jesus’ Messiahship and Lordship over all the Earth. No place is beyond redemption. What kind of message would it send if we Christians sacrificed our free speech rights because of opposition?

    Consider this: What if a town resident such as yourself claimed that your town doesn’t want visits from members of a certain political party or from a certain secular business sales representative? The political party would come anyway and try to organize in your town. The business would come anyway realizing that you cannot fulfill all the demand in the market. You yourself admitted in your question that your town still have 10% of the population undecided about faith.

    >>> We find it offensive.
    Ken comments:
    Yes, you do find evangelism offensive. You resent the implication that you and generations of your spiritual ancestors missed out on God’s blessings and are living in opposition to God today. That would offend me if I were you. Yet I will not change the Christian message to avoid offending you. I believe the message is absolute truth. I regret the offense and do not wish to cause you distress. I do not see any alternative.

    >>> We would be insulted.
    Ken comments:
    You may feel insulted, but that is your problem, not mine. I intend no insults whatever. Yet I must agree with you. My Christian message is offensive. In fact the idea that Messiah would be killed is scandalous according to the New Testament itself. So your reaction is normal.

    >>> You would bring hate to our town, not love.
    Ken comments:
    I would bring love. The hate is already there. It only comes out into the open when confronted with Christianity. Don’t you think we Christians would love to find a loving and kind way to proselytize for Yeshua without arousing offense? I know of no such method either in the Bible or in 2,000 years of history.

    The best we can hope for is tolerance and non-violent opposition. That requires you — the offended one — to limit your opposition to words and signs etc., but to forego violents and unlawful acts.

    >>> Give that, would you still insist on coming to claim you have some “freedom of the right to try to convert Jews”?
    Ken comments:
    Yes, the freedom to convert anyone — including gentiles and Jews — is a basic human right, not a vote of government. All governments can do is either respect this God-given right or try to oppose it. If the government opposes this God-given right, then the government brings down God’s judgement upon itself. That is why our American founding fathers respected free speech and freedom of faith in our Constitution. Israel does too. That is why evangelism of Israeli adults is legal.

    Let me ask you this. What do you think evangelism is? It is merely persuasive words and kind deeds. It in not coercive. It does not offer money or rewards to convert. The appeal is to human beings to respond to God’s offer of full atonement for sin. Against that there can be no law.

  101. >>> When you visit here you are a guest in our house and you should behave accordingly.

    Ken comments:

    Here is what would happen if we were neighbors in the same town. We’d proabably play chess together or meet each other in a public park or at a gun club. Whatever the reason we’d start a conversation and eventually a friendship. Later it would be natural to discuss our families, our countries, and our interests etc. Sooner or later over the days or weeks we would discuss matters of faith. This may happen if you mention a holy day or a religious activity. I would share with you something about my religious activities. You would realize I am a missionary as well as a private individual living in and working in Israel.

    At that time you may ask questions about my faith. I know I’d ask you about yours, especially your knowledge of Hebrew. Or you may say to me something like, “Don’t tell me about that.” or “I’ve heard that before. Please stop.” I would respect your wishes — to change the subject or to continue the discussion –either way and we’d continue to be friends.

    We could continue our friendship based upon football, science, sports, politics, economics, technology, healthy lifestyles, gourment cooking etc.. If at sometime in the future you wished to discuss the matter of faith further, I would gladly do so.

  102. Kevin wrote: “oe: sorry but I’m Jewish and I believe in Jesus, get used to it. Had you not noticed that it’s impossible to keep all 613 mitzvot as some of them need to be done in the temple?”

    I want to comment about that.
    How to live in order to enable the Creator in His loving kindness to provide His foregivness is outlined in the Jewish Bible ; and was also taught by the first century Ribi Yehoshua from Nazareth (the Mashiakh; the Messiah).

    The Jewish Bible – for example Yekhëzqeil (Hezekiel) 18 – promises foregivness to those who do their sincerest to keep Torah. The Creator cannot lie and He does not change (Malakhi 3:6)! According to Tehilim (“Psalms”) 103 the Creator gives his foregivness to those who do their sincerest to keep His berit (“covenant”; the pre-conditions to be included in the berit is according to the Jewish Bible to do ones sincerest to keep Torah).

    So it is impossible to keep all the mitzwot in Torah and the Creator does not require the impossible.
    Furthermore, that you are believing in Jesus implies that believe in the NT-doctrine of salvation and what I wrote above implies that that is not correct.

    You will find Ribi Yehoshuas teachings here: Netzarim

    All the best, Anders Branderud

  103. Ken writes: “You resent the implication that you and generations of your spiritual ancestors missed out on God’s blessings and are living in opposition to God today. That would offend me if I were you. Yet I will not change the Christian message to avoid offending you. I believe the message is absolute truth. I regret the offense and do not wish to cause you distress. I do not see any alternative.”

    There is a real easy alternative, Ken – if you do not wish to cause me distress, then you MUST accept me for what I am – a believing Jew and a human being with the right to believe that G-d put me here to do 613 commandments, and that I have the right to believe that I am in COMPLETE alignment with the Creator, not in opposition.

    As a human being and as a Jew, I believe that you have the right to your beliefs, and I do not believe that I have the right to impose anything upon you in America at all. You have the right in America to do what you want according to the laws of America. Here, you should fee subject to the 7 Noachide laws and that as a visitor in Israel you are subject to the laws of the land, just like you are in any other country on this planet.

    But then, from the rejection in your mind and heart you’d feel some kind of unfulfilled lust (a sin in itself) to challenge me, and then you would bring the offense and I would have no choice but to repeatedly reject you.

    Your accusation that I and my fellow Jews are ” living in opposition to G-d today” is not just insulting, it’s downright disgusting.

    You don’t hear me insisting that I have the right to come into your town and accuse you of living in opposition to G-d, do you?

    I restate my claim: you are by definition offensive. By self-admission as you yourself said, you are unable to leave innocent people alone. You admitted that your purpose in life is to offend people (Ken writes: “That would offend me if I were you.”).

    By your own admission, you say that your purpose in life is to offend me.
    I consider myself offended.

    No you do not have any “right” to come into my country and offend us believing Jews. Your rights are in America.

    Ken – do us all a favor and stay at home with your beliefs.

    Joe

  104. Thank you for addressing my replies, Joe.

    >>> There is a real easy alternative, Ken – if you do not wish to cause me distress, then you MUST accept me for what I am – a believing Jew and a human being with the right to believe that G-d put me here to do 613 commandments, and that I have the right to believe that I am in COMPLETE alignment with the Creator, not in opposition.

    Ken says:
    I accept you as you are. You are my fellow human being with all the same G-d given human rights I have. You believe G-d wants you to observe the 613 commands. You further believe that you are already complete without Yeshua as Messiah. I accept you just as you are. My fellow evangelicals are not using violence or financial pressure to punish you for your beliefs or to force conversion. We do not offer you any material bribes to believe in Yeshua as Messiah. I accept you as you are, and I still would like you to believe in Yeshua is the Messiah you seek. There is no contradiction there.

    >>> As a human being and as a Jew, I believe that you have the right to your beliefs, and I do not believe that I have the right to impose anything upon you in America at all. You have the right in America to do what you want according to the laws of America. Here, you should fee subject to the 7 Noachide laws and that as a visitor in Israel you are subject to the laws of the land, just like you are in any other country on this planet.

    Ken says:
    Yes, I always obey the law and agree with the above paragraph.

    >>> But then, from the rejection in your mind and heart you’d feel some kind of unfulfilled lust (a sin in itself) to challenge me, and then you would bring the offense and I would have no choice but to repeatedly reject you.

    Ken says:
    What rejection? I understand that a rejection of Messiah is not a rejection of me. I do not feel the desire to challenge when the non-Christian says he doesn’t want to discuss spiritual matters. We simply talk about something else. True, maybe in a few months or even years you’d have a crisis event or a thoughtful moment (say, the illness of a loved one or the passing of a friend). I seek your permission at that time something like this, “Joe, remember last year you told me you didn’t want to discuss Yeshua? I have respected that. Now that Benny is dying, I cannot help but wonder if you’d like to hear what is on my mind now? It is about Yeshua.” I’d leave it to you again.

    You can always tell when someone really wants to befriend you. I have had Jehovah’s Witnesses friends who could not help me with a political software sale, but did not feel rejected, and a Moslem friend who asked me to change channels on my car radio when I gave him a ride. It was Christmas season. I respected their wishes and gladly. What’s the problem with that?

    >>> Your accusation that I and my fellow Jews are ” living in opposition to G-d today” is not just insulting, it’s downright disgusting.

    Ken says: Yes it is. How do you think I feel? I have the most important message in the universe and of all time, and it is highly offensive to many people. Just ponder that a moment. I can understand why you might feel hurt, rejection, outrage, and alienation from missionaries. How dare we Christians say these things about you and thousands of years of Jewish history!

    >>> You don’t hear me insisting that I have the right to come into your town and accuse you of living in opposition to G-d, do you?

    Ken says: Yes, you have that right. You may come to my town and say that my faith is wrong, that I offend G-d, that I am preaching all manner of evil etc. That is your basic human religous free speech right.

    I will tell you a little secret. Most evangelical Christians would welcome such a discussion. True. Try it sometime. As long as you are polite and sincere (as am I), then they will hear your criticisms.

    >>> I restate my claim: you are by definition offensive.
    Ken says: Yes, sort of. I personally am inoffensive in my demeanor and bearing, in my tone of voice, volume, listening skills, and gestures etc. It is the content of my core beliefs in Yeshua as Messiah that are offensive. I cannot make them otherwise.

    >>> By self-admission as you yourself said, you are unable to leave innocent people alone. You admitted that your purpose in life is to offend people (Ken writes: “That would offend me if I were you.”).
    Ken says:
    I can leave anyone alone, and do so when asked. It doesn’t matter whether they are “innocent” or whether they have violated one of the 613 sometime ever in their lives. Either way I will talk with those willing to hear me about Yeshua.

    Am puzzled by the statement that my purpose in life is to offend people. I intend no offense.

    >>> By your own admission, you say that your purpose in life is to offend me. I consider myself offended.
    Ken says:
    In that case I will not tell you why Yeshua is your Messiah. Maybe next year in Jerusalem…

    >>> No you do not have any “right” to come into my country and offend us believing Jews. Your rights are in America. Ken – do us all a favor and stay at home with your beliefs.
    Ken says:
    The right to speak without threat of violence and without offering a bribe (material inducement) is a basic human right and is protected in Israel. Yes, we both enjoy that right.

    You see that freedom of speech means nothing if it means you cannot express ideas that may offend someone. Think about it.

  105. Ken says: “I have the most important message in the universe and of all time…”

    Funny, Ken, I also have the most important message in the universe and of all time that my new religion calls on me to worship Krishna and marry the teenage daughters of evangelical Christians.

    It’s my religion (The Church of the Newfound Vision of Ornery Old Men) and obviously my freedom of expression. I have the freedom of speech to come to your town and share with you my most important message. Obviously, if your daughters are listening in I want them to listen too so that when they turn 18 (or if they already are) then they can engage me in polite conversation about the subject. My church allows me to marry up to 18 teenagers (who must all be of legal age to marry in your state, of course).

    I’ll be polite, and I’ll respect you if you want to engage me in conversation or if you tell me you’re not interested, although I may be back in a year to check again just to make sure something hasn’t happened like a father-daughter fight and maybe they’ll be open to listening to what I have to say about my church’s world view.

    ***

    Back to reality – if somebody came to me with that argument I’d be put off, wouldn’t you?

    I’m going to be blunt: the “most important message” is a subjective and relative thing. It’s the absolute most important thing to you in your world, but to many of us it is NOT.

    It’s not even close.

    Not only is it not important to us, we’re not interested in discussing it just like you’re not interested in discussing marrying off your teenage daughters to some guy with a crazy religion.

    Others of us look at it as being totally irrelevant to our world and our world view. Even the thought of it is offensive.

    The message is important to you, but not to us. Get it?

    Actually, I’m pretty sure you don’t get it at all.

    Joe

  106. Thank you for your reply, Joe. I appreciate your staying with me.

    >>> Back to reality – if somebody came to me with that argument I’d be put off, wouldn’t you?

    Ken replies:
    Anyone would be off put. So what? That is my right to my own feelings just as much as it is your right to your feelings. But neither of us have a right to censor or take violent action against another adult trying to convert another adult to a view we don’t like. I would certainly CONTINUE to respect the basic human rights of other religions and of atheists/agnostics to preach their views. In fact I urge support for several CHRISTIAN civil rights law firms that have defended the religious freedom of Orthodox Jews as well as Sikhs, Moslems, Hindus, Buddhists etc. in the USA. We Christians freely donate our wealth and time to help EVERYONE.

    As a side note the example you gave involved several unlawful activities outside the protection of the first amendment guaranteeing free speech in the USA. The controversial issues are child sex, child pornography, sexual obscenity. and contributing to the deliquency of a minor. But if you talk to adults only, then most of these go away.

    >>> I’m going to be blunt: the “most important message” is a subjective and relative thing. It’s the absolute most important thing to you in your world, but to many of us it is NOT. It’s not even close.

    Dan says:
    Yes. I understand that to SOME Jews — but NOT ALL JEWS — faith in Yeshua as Messiah and Forgiver of sins is not of interest. I don’t talk to them when they say they are not interested. I gladly talk to those adults who wish to convert.

    I respect the rights of Israeli and American Jews who WANT TO TALK. Can you also respect our mutual right as two adults who want to talk about Yeshua?

    >>> Actually, I’m pretty sure you don’t get it at all.

    Dan says:
    Joe. what’s not to get? Ofcourse I get it. You personally and a few thousand of your closest friends and family don’t want to hear about Yeshua’s claim to be Isreal’s Messiah. Am I right?

    Please understand that you do not speak for all Israelis and for all Jews. There are many millions of people worldwide and in Israel who don’t object. Why not allow them their right to talk with the missionaries if they want to? And they can communicate online too. Would you ask the Israeli government to ban Messianic Jews and Jews for Jesus websites too?

  107. No Ken, you don’t get it. It’s not a few thousand, it’s most of us. Call it 12 million or so. It’s not some Jews, it’s most Jews. The vast majority.

    Ken, please understand that you don’t speak for all Americans and for all Christians. I have many Christian and Catholic friends and they all understand Jewish objections to missionaries. You, on the other hand, do not.

  108. Joe, thanks for addressing some of my comments. Perhaps you’d care to refine your answers.

    >>>Ken, please understand that you don’t speak for all Americans and for all Christians.

    Ken says:
    I, Kenny, have never claimed to speak for all Americans or for all Christians on this thread. I do, however, speak for myself and for Bible-believers like me, generally called evangelicals or fundamentalists. We believe in voluntary evangelism and voluntary conversions and freedom of speech.

    You, Joe Ben Avraham, do claim to speak for Israel. You do not. Let me expand on this fascinating point.

    You wrote:
    >>> It’s not a few thousand, it’s most of us. Call it 12 million or so. It’s not some Jews, it’s most Jews. The vast majority.

    I said you and a few thousand of your closest friends might object to my missionary work in Israel. I was being generous. You don’t have that many close friends! No one does.

    I don’t doubt that most non-Christians including Jews who are not yet Christians dislike Christian proselytism. So what? I gladly agree with you. No argument there.

    The real issue is does their opinion count for anything toward stopping Chrisian evangelism? Answer: No.

    A strong secondary question is one you don’t dare address. Do most Israeli Jews want a ban on proselytism of Jews by Christians? Answer: No in my opinion. Now that is telling.

    Why don’t most Israeli Jews oppose a ban on cross-faith proselytism in Israel? Answer: Because they know it is a violation of free speech. They are good and decent folk who have too much respect for others to allow extremists to censor anyone. They too remember the pogroms and murders that started the same way. It is to their credit that they re-elect leaders overwhelmingly who oppose such censorship.

    Ditto for unrepentent Jews in the USA. We in the USA – Jews and Gentiles – recall the words of Voltaire, “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it”

    >>> I have many Christian and Catholic friends and they all understand Jewish objections to missionaries. You, on the other hand, do not.

    I doubt that true Christians oppose evangelism. Proselytism is a core Biblical value. Did not Yeshua warn that most people claiming to be His followers are not so? His words to the unbelievers who think they are saved and are not is “Depart from Me you workers of evil. I never knew you.”

    Lastly you never did address this. Will you respect the rights of Israeli Jews who want to convert or who want to hear about Yeshua from a Christian missionary in Israel?

  109. “I doubt that true Christians oppose evangelism.”

    Here we go again, Ken. Why are you speaking on behalf of all Christians?

    Here you go judging your fellow Christians and committing a sin – who are you to judge who is a “true Christian”?

    Ken – you are talking the sin of pride. You are talking as if you are the judge and adjudicator of other human beings. You are not. Only the Big Guy is.

    Here you go being offensive again, but this time you are insulting other Christians. If my friend believes in his heart that I have the my right not just to be Jewish, but to not be constantly challenged by evangelists, then who are you say my friend is not a “true Christian”? Now you insult not just me, but him as well.

    I say he respects me and my humanity, and I call that being a true Christian.

    You, on the other hand, think that it’s open season on Jews. You give me the weak and pathetic argument that if Joe asks Ken to stop talking evangelism, then you’ll shut up.

    But therein lies the big lie. Your lie Ken. And you sin again by lying to me.

    You say at the same time that you will stop, but you want me to give the right to all evangelicals to come after you and tell me and my fellow Jews that we”missed out on God’s blessings and are living in opposition to God today.”

    See. You are a liar. You yourself may accept it when I tell you (and I’ve already told you I don’t want to hear it from you) to stop talking about Jesus, but you want a million others to do the same.

    I don’t want you to talk about Jesus to me. Because I know that another evangelical will come after you with the same message. And I’ll say no to him or her too. And then another, and another, and another.

    You want to flood the Jewish state with evangelicals trying to wipe the Jews off the face of the Holy Land and turn us all into Christians.

    How hateful of you.

  110. Hello again, Joe Ben Avraham.

    Let me address the new topic of phoney Christians, who are not Christians at all and have misrepresented Christianity to you.

    >>> “I doubt that true Christians oppose evangelism.”

    Yes, I should have been more forceful and direct. All true Christians endorse evangelism of Jews and Gentiles. Groups that do not are unfaithful to the message of Christ.

    >>> Here we go again, Ken. Why are you speaking on behalf of all Christians?

    I speak on behalf of Jesus Christ, because the Bible tells me the content of the Christian faith. It is the privilege as well as duty of every Christian believer to do so.

    >>> Here you go judging your fellow Christians

    Yes, I do, and I obey the command of the Apostle Paul to us true Christians to “Judge right judgment.” I judge their doctrine and lifestyles by the Bible.

    >>> and committing a sin

    It is not a sin to judge and condemn false doctrine and false Christians. Sin to judge? Whatever gave you that idea?

    >>> – who are you to judge who is a “true Christian”?

    I am a Christian acting with the authority of the Bible and the Messiah. Whatever you bind on Earth is bound in Heaven…

    >>> Ken – you are talking the sin of pride.

    Biblical judgment becoming the sin of pride? That is a flying leap of logic. In the circus of ideas, it would be a great trapeeze act.

    >>> You are talking as if you are the judge and adjudicator of other human beings. You are not. Only the Big Guy is.

    Whatever is bound on Earth is bound in Heaven. The basis for judgment is the Gospel of Christ. He that has the Son has life; he that does not have the Son does not have life.

    >>> Here you go being offensive again,

    Do you really, REALLY find this offensive at all? I am a really nice guy in person. Only my Christian beliefs are offensive.

    >>> but this time you are insulting other Christians.

    If I believe some so-called Christians are false Christians — not Christians at all — then I may offend them, but so what? I intend no insult. That is what free speech and tolerance is about.

    >>> If my friend believes in his heart that I have the my right not just to be Jewish, but to not be constantly challenged by evangelists, then who are you say my friend is not a “true Christian”?

    That is not how you described the beliefs of your friends in your earlier post. You said they didn’t believe in evangelism of Jewish persons. There is a difference between harrassment and evangelism. To be honest now, you changed the subject significantly.

    I also agree that you should not be “constantly challenged” etc.. If that means no evangelism, then I say you mistake “constantly challenged” for free speech. When I talk with someone who does not want to talk about the reasons for believing Yeshua is Messiah, I respect his/her wishes and change the subject or leave. That is respectful. But never will I abandon the clear and powerful command of our Lord to evangelize both Jews and Gentiles.

    >>> Now you insult not just me, but him as well.

    No insult intended. My views may be offensive, but my words and thoughts are kind and respectful. I do not intend to insult or even to offend. But if my views are offensive, you have the right to argue in reply. If you are kind and sincere, I can tell, and even if your views might offend others, I will not take offense. And if you might insult me (come to think of it, calling me a liar comes close!), I will just forgive you!

    >>> I say he respects me and my humanity, and I call that being a true Christian.

    Well since you raised the subject of being a true Christian, allow me to respond. Being a true Christian has nothing to do with respecting anyone or respecting anyone’s humanity. A true Christian is one who admits he is a hopeless sinner, deserving of hell and eternal damnation, and is unable to reform himself to merit eternal life or to do enough good deeds to somehow pay for all the bad which he has done. The only price God accepts is blood payment, a sinless life for a sinful life, and, like the OT sacrifices, the Substitute life must be sinless; otherwise the Substitute life is dying for its own sin. The true Christian must accept forgiveness and eternal life as free gifts that cannot be earned, just gratefully received upon repentence and belief.

    After a person becomes a true Christian, improvements in life will come, but they are not the cause of being a true Christian. They are caused by being a true Christian.

  111. Yea, well this is where we part ways with me saying that you’re just another one of those evangelical loonies who thinks he is the only true believer in the only true church.

    You’re not. You’re just another pompous, self-aggrandizing evangelical with a totally irritating attitude.

    You’re just another loony tune who thinks that his religion is the only true religion, and your world won’t rest until EVERYBODY is converted to become a “true Christian” in your eyes.

    That, of course, sounds just like what the Islamofascists say about theirs being the only true religion and their goal is to make sure that everybody becomes a true believer in Allah.

    The diff is, of course, that they’ll kill the lot of us. You’ll just annoy us to death with your phony talk that you are tolerant of me and my religion, so long as you can evangelize me every month for eternity.

    Stay home, Ken. You’re annoying. I don’t think I’d go fishing with you at all, and my softball team would do its damdest to clobber your side every time and then NOT go out for beers with you afterwards, cuz all you guys want to do is try to stuff Jesus down our throats.

    And, of course this means you’ve failed in your mission, since I’m not even interested in listening to you. You haven’t even given yourself to use the opportunity of showing me the example of your lifestyle to try and convert me.

    I told you I want to see religious tolerance from you, and you went blathering on an on about how it’s your “freedom” to do exactly the opposite – try to convert me even though I told you I don’t want to hear it.

    Well, Ken. You’ve failed. I don’t want to hear from you. I don’t want you invading and infecting my country. You are not welcome and yes, I will indeed support legislation to ban proselytizing by evangelicals. It’s obviously an evil that the Nation of Israel must defend itself against.

    Joe

    • Joe,

      Am sadden to hear you are leaving us. Please come again. You are always welcome here. You did not make personal attacks (or if you did, I am cheefully unable to notice). You also stayed on point and refrained from obscenity and profanity.

      >>> you’re just another one of those evangelical loonies who thinks he is the only true believer in the only true church.

      Actually salvation is in only one Person, Jesus Christ, not in any church. I am pleased to report I am NOT the only true believer. As for being “one of those evangelical loonies”? Well I am amused. You are half-right!

      >>> You’re just another pompous, self-aggrandizing evangelical

      You are one-third right and possibly right! :-)

      >>> with a totally irritating attitude.

      Irritating because someone does not agree with you and with Orthodox Judaism? Or one who is so pleased with Yeshua that he/she boldly proclaims Jesus to Jews inside Israel? Really?

      >>> You’re just another loony tune who thinks that his religion is the only true religion, and your world won’t rest until EVERYBODY is converted to become a “true Christian” in your eyes.

      Not even close. My religion – as with all human religions – is surely wrong on some matters. Religion, after all, is partly human, partly divine and is limited by human sin and human intellect. But Yeshua the Messiah is God, so He is never wrong. He is the standard by which God will judge Jews in the final judgement. Jesus Christ is the true ONE.

      >>> That, of course, sounds just like what the Islamofascists say about theirs being the only true religion and their goal is to make sure that everybody becomes a true believer in Allah.

      Most people can detect a difference… in method of conversion. By the way all other faiths also believe they are right… even Buddhists who alledge alll faiths are equal and lead to the top of the same mountain. As a seminary student rightly pointed out, even Buddhism believes it has a superior vantage point ABOVE the mountain to see all roads leading upward. Same difference.

      >>> The diff is, of course, that they’ll kill the lot of us. You’ll just annoy us to death with your phony talk that you are tolerant of me and my religion, so long as you can evangelize me every month for eternity.

      Viva la difference! And the difference is infinite between tolerant Christian persuasion to a willing listener and violent non-Christian coercion including rape, torture, and homocide. I prefer the former method, persuasion. So does Messiah. So also did the American Christian founding fathers and so do the courts and lawmakers of modern Israel.

      >>> Stay home, Ken. You’re annoying.

      An my wife says I ought to get out more. :-)

      >>> I don’t think I’d go fishing with you at all, and my softball team would do its damdest to clobber your side every time and then NOT go out for beers with you afterwards, cuz all you guys want to do is try to stuff Jesus down our throats.

      Have you been so long with me and not heard what I said? What makes you think I would continue to evangelize if you didn’t want me to? Same for my teammates who are believers.

      I bet you’d get really mad at your fellow ball players who actually wanted to engage me in speech about Messiah. In fact I bet there would surely be two or three who’s deliberately engage me in Messiaic conversation just to rile you! Am I right? Of course.

      >>> And, of course this means you’ve failed in your mission, since I’m not even interested in listening to you. You haven’t even given yourself to use the opportunity of showing me the example of your lifestyle to try and convert me.

      But I am not trying to convert you. You asked me not to. As for my mission, I stated that up front in earlier posts. I fight for liberty, for religious freedom and religious free speech. That is my passion. Trace back our threads of conversation and you will see two things. Firstly that I continually address freesdom issues for Israeli and non-Israeli Jewish and Gentile missionaries and Messianic believers. Secondly, I never tried to persuade you of Jesus Christ’s claims for Himself. (That will be revealed to you and to your family in life or after death.) Did you not notice?

      It is interesting that you conceded my every point on matters of law and human rights in Israel. You failed to prove that missionary work is illegal or that visitors can be legally excluded from visiting if they refuse to promise not to evangelize. That is success!

      >>> I told you I want to see religious tolerance from you, and you went blathering on an on about how it’s your “freedom” to do exactly the opposite – try to convert me even though I told you I don’t want to hear it.

      Apples and oranges, Joe. You failed to prove that religious tolerance means religious silence. I told you I have a right to discuss Yeshua with Israeli Jews who want to discuss Him and His Messianic claims. You have to be tolerant of our free speech, Joe. You cannot censor your fellow Israelis from voluntarily talking with my wife and me.

      And for the record I never tried to convert you. Odd that you would say so. What on Earth are you thinking?

      >>> Well, Ken. You’ve failed. I don’t want to hear from you.

      I fail to see how I failed! What human rights point did I concede?

      >>> I don’t want you invading and infecting my country. You are not welcome and yes, I will indeed support legislation to ban proselytizing by evangelicals. It’s obviously an evil that the Nation of Israel must defend itself against.

      I am coming! My wife and I and a few million of our closest friends from around the globe and inside greater Israel will accompany Yeshua as He visits you time and again, day by day. And there will always be some who will hear us and respond favorably to Messiah’s generous offer.

      As for your political ambitions, please do continue to try the peaceful path of persuasive words and speech, not of bloodshed and bombs as some other anti-missionary groups do. I wish you well on your search for the Messiah. May you find Him, the ONE you seek.

      Be seeing you!

  112. Katura writes–
    Missionaries should stop missionizing.

    Ken wonders if you consider the command of Messiah to evangelize the world authoritative?

    Katura writes–
    You got a bad history of running up in people’s countries and killing people, raping the children of their cultures and identification as well as stealing from the lands you enter. Not everyone, but your history is bad.

    Ken asks if Katura really believes that these are actually Christian missionary methods. This sounds like the actions of medieval state churches… a non-Christian imitation of true Christian faith and methods.

    Katura writes–
    No wonder Jews and Muslims do not want you there. If you can learn to reach people in a better way than forcing yourselves on others by “Thinking YOU are doing G-d’s work” then Jews would not mind.

    Ken asks Kat if true evangelism does not force, rather it converses with those willing to listen and listens to those willing to talk. God is a Gentleman; He never forces Himself or His servants upon others.

    Katura writes–
    Instead you go over there and tell them they are bound by stupid laws,

    Ken observes that this is a message they need to hear… a message of liberation from stupid laws. As a born again, Bible-believing Christian, I rejoice that I am not bound by stupid laws to earn God’s favor and new life in Messiah. I incidently obey God’s moral laws to please Him, not to earn a free gift.

    Katura writes–
    YEshua is the lamb who fulfilled the law and although you mix hebraic-ness to the bible, you are still a part of Christianity.

    Ken wonders what that means?

    Katura writes–
    The way to make a Jew jealous, according to the biblical way is by doing Torah.

    Ken–
    Really? What Bible? I am willing to obey God’s Word, but am unable to find this taught in Scripture.

    Katura writes–
    I am Messianic but I am also Chabad Breslov and you would be surprized how many Messianic Yeshua believers there are in Chabad, but you will never know or hear of them because you gentile Christian cover ups give us all a bad name in the face of our brother.

    Ken–
    Do you supposed Messianic Yeshua believers in Chabad believe that Jesus of Nazarath, son of Joseph and Mary, is God?

    Katura writes–
    You should go home, get off the net, pray to HaShem and learn Torah. Love you brother as your self as this one teaching sums up the Commandments. IF you love your brother you would not hate. If you hate your brother you do not love Yeshua. Simple as day. The enemy in Israel is not the Jews, It is the way of life that divides the line between everyone. REspect a jew and he will listen. Impose on a Jew and he will lash out. This is the nature of the yetzer hara, or do you not know and understand spiritual things?

    Ken–
    I have to agree with you about one point. Some of the posts recently here have seemed harsh and divisive. My sincere advice to my fellow believers in Christ is not to ridicule, not to bad mouth, and to be most careful in criticizing the perceived faults and inconsistencies of non-Christians, especially of those who oppose us and Messiah. Please forgive. Show mercy. Speak the truth in love.

  113. “You got a bad history of running up in people’s countries and killing people, raping the children of their cultures and identification as well as stealing from the lands you enter.”

    Katurah, you have made an error here. I am a Gentile Christian whose religion NEVER did such things. You have no idea that there is a difference between the false Christianity of Roman Catholicism and true believers in Yeshuah who were persecuted by this evil denomination for their adherence to scripture and not Rome during the Inquisition. True followers have their own history of holocaust. Your argument doesn’t hold. Become knowledgeable.

    I had the privilege of working in a synagogue and having an honorary membership there – AS A GENTILE. I then read the Holy Scriptures and converted – TO CHRISTIANITY! Read Isaiah 53 for yourself.

  114. As a ger toshav participant in Messic Judaism I think for the most part I would have to agree with Joe and Katurah. My observation of fellow gentiles in this movement does not lend to flowery conclusions.

    Ken, you wrote:
    “Ken wonders if you consider the command of Messiah to evangelize the world authoritative?”

    I apparently am not as familiar with my Apostolic Scriptures as I though I was. Ken could you pleasepoint out to me where “exactly and word for word” in Scripture Maran Yeshua gives us the command to evangelize. If you are talking about the “great Commission”, that I believe is one scripture that really is all wrong, again becasue of an abominable lack of reading in context on the part of mainstream Christianity.

    Maran Yeshua commissions his close followers to be sh’liachim (sent ones) and exhorts them to go out and make disciples. What was that word, “disciples”. Lets spell it …D…I…S..C…I..P..L…E…S…HHhhmmmmm!!

    From a first century understanding, there were all kinds of itinerant rabbis walking around “making disciples”. they made disciples by being a light of Torah, by acting in a way that produced kiddush hashem. They made disciples by teaching and “allowing” others to take in their teaching , got that Ken— allowing disciples to come to them…not going out and forcing a scroll on someone or standing in someone’s face telling them how they really aren’t following G-d, but that I have the right way to follow.

    There is something deep rooted and ugly in the understanding that I see displayed again and agian on this blog, on most of the blogs of “genitle Hebrew-Roots observing own commandment make-upping, Judaism recriminating” people who are this majority of this movement of Gentile “torah” followers. It is the mindset that says
    “I love Jews I just hate the rabbis because they are not of G-d”, which curiously sounds very similar to ” I love the Jews I just hate Zionism because it is not of G-d”, which sounds very similar to ” I love the Jews, I just hate Jewish things because they are not of G-d”. Wow, that all seems to sound the same to me.

    On that line of thinking,

    Christian Science, you wrote in response to Katurah:

    “Katurah, you have made an error here. I am a Gentile Christian whose religion NEVER did such things. You have no idea that there is a difference between the false Christianity of Roman Catholicism and true believers in Yeshuah who were persecuted by this evil denomination for their adherence to scripture and not Rome during the Inquisition. True followers have their own history of holocaust. Your argument doesn’t hold. Become knowledgeable”

    CS, you may want to make sure you have taken the log out of your history before you take the speck out of Katurah’s. Here is a quote for you CS, I’m wondering if you can place it for me.

    “the Jews are a base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth.”

    having trouble with that one how about this one:

    “they are “full of the devil’s feces … which they wallow in like swine,”

    or maybe this summary of the book that all the above statements which are in fact from the same book:

    “He argues that their synagogues and schools be set on fire, their prayer books destroyed, rabbis forbidden to preach, homes razed, and property and money confiscated. They should be shown no mercy or kindness,[4] afforded no legal protection,[5] and these “poisonous envenomed worms” should be drafted into forced labor or expelled for all time.[6] He also seems to advocate their murder, writing “[w]e are at fault in not slaying them.”[7]

    Still having difficulty, here is the quote of a Protestant Pastor regarding his view on this individual:

    “On November 10, 1938, on XXXXXX birthday, the synagogues are burning in Germany.” ….”the XXXXXXX people… ought to heed these words of the greatest antisemite of his time, the warner of his people against the Jews..”

    Wow, now who does that sound like???

    CS. if you are referring to evangelical protestant christianity as “your religion”(yes it is my roots as well) then “your religion” is responsible for not only the father of the reformation, but the father of the Shoah as well, because those words above are Martin Luther’s.

    Martin Luther, who because the Jews wouldn’t respond to his “evangelizing with the truth” became the worst enemy of the Jews. As he had almost prophetic status in the Germany of the 1500’s, and as he was practically the most well read author of the time (one of the first authors of the time with the advent only some 100 years earlier of the set printing press) he is the mortar of the foundation of Anti-semitism not only in germany but in protestant doctrine as well. I must say as a believer in mashiach ben David, Mashiach Yeshua, who commands us to forgive in order that we might be forgiven, I struggle with the understanding of the mindset of Luther.

    Particularly as such a mindset still seems to be apparent, even among those gentiles who “love the Jews and who love Torah”. It is the underlying root in comments like “those Orthodox Jews who deny truth and who deny Messiah.” I must say that statements like these are written from the position of a profound ignorance of Jewish thought that I cannot even begin to address.

    Newsflash, those of us who use the term ‘Messianic Jew” need to be humble in our assessment of propriety of that term. All observant Judaism is Messianic Judaism. It is evident in the prayers, in the thinking in the everday life of observant Jews. To say that Jews deny the “man-G-d”, “torah denying” “new deal making” “Jew abandoning” understanding of Yeshua which has been forced down Jewish throats, often at the end of a sword or a torch or gun; is that really an indication of the Jews denying Mashiach or is it more likely a case of Jews faithfully trying to uphold Torah?? Simply look to the 12th of Maimonides 13 principles of faith:

    “I believe with complete faith in the coming of the Messiah and even though he may delay, nevertheless I anticipate every day that he will come.”

    The Jews deny Messiah as the destroyer of Torah, as the heretic who came to teach against Torah and in doing so falls in line with what Devarim (Deuteronomy) 13 says about those prophets and miracle workers who would draw people away from the Torah of G-d. That they , the Jews, have not hardly had the opportunity to discuss in a Jewish forum, Mashiach who came to establish the Torah, cannot be ascribed as their failing. If anything, if we truly believe all scripture, the apostle tells us that the veil has been placed there by Hashem that the nations might be saved, and rather more importantly so that the Jews might be made zealous( not Jeaulous) for the torah. The only reason that we as gentiles have been given the privelege of enterin into this “covenant” is so that “the” chosen people of G-d might be brough tback to the fold. Joe, on this we do differ I am sorry, but rest assured that outside a forum like this, I would never put you in a place to force that opinion on you in a demeaning or derogatory way.

    Back to Luther and his book, the book that the above quotes were taken from, is titled “On the Jews and their lies”. It was printed only three years before his death. He went to the grave, at least publicly, unrepentant in his position as established in that book. Moreover, he personally advocated this stance repeatedly throughout the remainder of his life.
    That, would seem to be the end result of “christian proseltyzing the jews”. rather let me clarify, the end result of “gentile proselytzing of the Jews”

    So, if reaching out to jews implies the words of Luther,
    or Billy Graham who in speaking to Richard Nixon on the phone talked about the “Jewish problem” in America, if that is what reaching out to the Jews means, no thanks!!!

    AS for some words of truth:

    “For a commandment is a lamp and the Torah is light”(Mishlei/Proverbs)
    “So let your light so shine before men , that they may see your good works and give thanks to your father in Heaven”(Yeshua our Master/Besorah of John))
    “Be among the disciples of Aaron:
    Love peace and pursue peace;
    Love all fellow creatures,
    And bring them near to the Torah”(Hillel/Pirke Avos)

    To Joe and KaturaH: Yasher Koach!!!!! Katurah, I wish there was some way of speaking to you in detail as I would very much like to hear more about your walk with Mashiach!!!

    To those who would follow the way of division. of hate, of judgementalism, of spiritual arrogance, of not respecting and being sensitive to the tree that we have been grafted onto:

    Yesh Din V’Yesh Dayan!!!!!

    • “ger toshav participant in Messic Judaism”! So are you a toshav or a participant?
      “those of us who use the term ‘Messianic Jew’” If you are not Jewish as you indicate, then you cannot be a Messianic Jew and to use the term is a misapropriation and misunderstanding of the term, you are a Messianic Gentile, that is more accurate. Don’t be embarrased about what God created you as, He made no mistake!

    • Michael,

      I am well aware of the use of disciple in the Great Commission. The import is that we to follow up those whom we evangelize. That is what it means to make disciples. We do not leave them alone after conversion. We make converts first by evangelism, and then we make disciples out of these converts.

      Is this not what Paul did? He evangelized and stayed in a city and made the new converts into disciples. When the local church could sustain itself, he moved on. The only exception was fleeing for his life from persecution.

      There is NEVER a prohibition against evangelism in the Bible. About the closest possible thing to a prohibition on evangelism would be a general verse from the book of Ecclesiastes “… a time to refrain from speaking”, but that really has nothing to do with evangelism, does it?

      So you see the Messiah does in fact order us to evangelize. That is included in making disciples based upon the example of Paul in carrying out the Great Commision. He did not visit a town and offer to disciple those who already believed. He made converts.

      ===

      I am sure you are confused as to what evangelism really is. You cited two examples which are NOT evangelism. Yelling in someone’s face and forcing (your word) anything upon someone are NOT acts of evangelism. There is never any example in the Bible of the Messiah or His apostles either forcing anything upon anyone or yelling in someone’s face. I would be glad to provide you with examples of people I’ve led to Christ (evangelism) without forcing anything upon them or yelling in someone’s face.

      • Making a disciple is a two-step process:
        Firstly one evangelizes a non-Christian.
        Secondly, one teaches the convert.

        Does that help you understand the Great Commission?

        Cordially,

        Ken

  115. Hey, this is Will from Compass, we talked a few months ago. Have you heard anything about the Bass verdict that was supposed to happen yesterday?

    • Here is what we got through today:

      After completion of the closing arguments by the respective attorneys, the court asked whether there was still any possibility of concluding the dispute by agreement. This led to various discussions with the attorneys for the different parties in the lawsuit, during the course of which we, on behalf of the plaintiffs, pointed out that we want a public apology from both of the defendants. The judge encouraged all of the attorneys to try to meet together (but did not order us to do so) to work out language agreeable to all parties, to which the court would give validity as a judgment. In the absence of agreement, each of the parties would submit a proposed text to the court. A further hearing was set for mid-April for the purpose of trying to conclude the matter without the judge rendering a decision. If agreement cannot be reached, he will issue his judgment after that.

  116. Gev,

    I think Messianic Gentile is quite frankly a nebulous term which really does nothing to describe what we are. It is a derivative of a description which, as evidenced here is anybody’s guess as to its meaning. I choose to use the word ger toshav at this point in my life as I feel it best describes my relationship to both Judaism and to my Messiah, and that there is certainly a biblical precedent for such usage.

    On re-reading my post, I recognize that I was unclear with regards to the comments regarding the term Messianic Jew, specifically:

    “Newsflash, those of us who use the term ‘Messianic Jew” need to be humble in our assessment of propriety of that term. ”

    Ideally, that should have read, “those who use the term Messianic Jew.”
    I believe that I have attached myself to Messianic Judaism. I practice a form of Messianic Judaism in my daily life. At all times as I observe that practice, I am constantly aware of my position related to Messianic Jews and Judaism in general.

    This has meant much heartfelt examination of some strongly held beliefs on my right to Torah as given at Sinai. At least for the time being, “ger Toshav” defines me in relation to my understood resonsibilities to the Torah. I am respectful of the heritage and the people that the Holy One of Israel (may His name be blessed forever and ever) has chosen to sustain and maintain the Torah through what has been a very long dark night in the absence of Messiah. I would hope that as a sincere servant of Messiah, I am humble in my estimation of my place in that design.

    “Messianic Gentile” could refer to a gentile candidate to Islam, as they certainly have a Messianic bent to their doctrine. It also speaks to me of the whole one-law Torah movement which although very keen on doing things “because Messiah did them” makes it very clear that we are not doing them “because they are Jewish things.”—that is definitely fodder for a very long thread.

    kol tuv

  117. Gev,

    In so far as the historical use of the term “toshav” it could mean someone who had just “stepped up to the plate” of living within the Jewish people, and it carried all the way up to being just short of a “ger Tzeddek”, a convert.

    So, I do think that “toshav” and “participant” are not exclusive terms as you would seem to be leading with your comments.

    Hashem willing, sometime soon I will be starting that transition from Toshav to Tzeddek, without giving up my faith in Messiah.
    Which is a remarkably exciting thing.

    Recognizing the firestorm of trolling type comments that such a declaration is bound to generate, I don’t anticipate returning here too often after this. Quite frankly, its not enough to keep me coming back.

    Gene:

    I have been reading your posts here,for only a short time, but have read your postings at several other blogs for about a year or so.

    Joe,

    Judaism has enough enemies from without….it doesn’t need them from within!!!!

    • The rabbis were concerned with the designation “Ger Toshav,” for fear that this might construe a non-Jew who was given covenant privileges without converting. They therefore introduced a new term “Ger Tzadik,” to designate a convert. the term is found only in the later rabbinic literature (not in the Tanach or the Mishnah).

    • Michael, I respect those Gentiles who approach Torah observance humbly and specifically for the sake of drawing closer to the people of Israel. I say for the sake of drawing closer to the people Israel and not specifically to HaShem, because, as you are probably well aware, under the New Covenant scheme a Gentile is not called to become observant like a Jew to draw just as intimately to G-d and be just as obedient to Him as any Jew can. From what I can tell, you seem to be that kind of Gentile seeker.

      The One-Law movement represents a view that Torah observance as given to the Jewish people and even the very Israelite identity itself is not only an inherent right of all Gentiles, it’s G-d’s call to them. This is of course where I draw the line. I am not sure if you view yourself as part of One-Law – it didn’t seem that way from what you wrote, but I could have misunderstood you.

  118. Well, finally have had the time and opportunity to read through this long blog. I’ll begin with one comment. Part of the problem of misunderstanding between Joe and Ken is that Ken does not understand that we consider presenting something as Jewish when it is not (Hebrew-Christianity) is deception. Joe may not understand that asking a Christian to ignore the Great Commission is like asking a Jew to ignore the Sabbath or Kashrus. In reality it’s not the Great Commission that is the problem, it is dressing Christianity up to look Jewish, and presenting it as the most Jewish thing in the world. That’s fraud. That’s deception. That’s dishonest, and that is what we object to.

    • “In reality it’s not the Great Commission that is the problem, it is dressing Christianity up to look Jewish, and presenting it as the most Jewish thing in the world. That’s fraud. That’s deception. That’s dishonest, and that is what we object to.”

      As opposed to secretly attending Messianic conferences as if you were Messianic yourself – in the hope of winning converts to Judaism? ;)

      • Judaism is not a proselytizing religion. Unlike you, Jews don’t require others’ acceptance for validation. Of course, if you want to convert you may. But it’s no skin off the back of the Jews one way or the other if you do or don’t convert.

        You can be sure that there is nobody from the Jewish community running around your trickster conventions trying to convert gentiles.

        Jews do have a responsibility for one another. “Am I my brother’s keeper?” is not a Jewish concept. So while we do reach out to our brethren being led astray by Christian missionaries, we do not engage in proselytization.

        I know you will continue repeating the Big Lie in hopes Jewish outreach to Jews will one day actually fall under the popular definition of conversion, but rest assured I will be there to correct and embarrass you each time you abuse the term henceforth.

      • Mark,

        Know your audience. If you ask Joseph to name the time and place of an act he wishes to accuse you of which you did not do, he will concoct a time and a place. Your best answer to him would have been “no, I did not attend any such conference and, since you’ve accused me of doing so the burden is on you to provide photographic evidence, and since that doesn’t exist let’s agree now that your accusation against me is just one more little example of the fact that you’re a liar.”

      • Gee Mark was never secret about who he was at any messianic conference I ever attended….How could he disguise himself? wear a mask?

        Mark was right outside the conference under his big sign
        Jews for Judaism? Where was the secret? Obviously Joseph you
        never saw him or you never attended a messianic conference.

        Don’t worry you didn’t miss a thing, After many years, I realized what
        a hoax and farce messyantics was…

        I remember Mark well!! Mark Kol Kavod

  119. Ah yes, the Great Commission, to which many serious Christians appear to have differing opinions. I like this one I found in wikipedia, of all places:

    R. Emden (), in a remarkable apology for Christianity contained in his appendix to “Seder ‘Olam” (pp. 32b-34b, Hamburg, 1752), gives it as his opinion that the original intention of Jesus, and especially of Paul, was to convert only the Gentiles to the seven moral laws of Noah and to let the Jews follow the Mosaic law — which explains the apparent contradictions in the New Testament regarding the laws of Moses and the Sabbath.

    So, it could be that the Great Commission was already fulfilled ( “And they went out and preached everywhere,” (Mark 16:20), “the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven,” (Colossians 1:23), and “Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations,” (Romans 16:25-26)

    So maybe Ken is just reliving history that G-d thinks has already passed.

    Whatever the case, we believing Jews see the Great Commission as nothing more than the Great Sin – trying to get Jews to abandon the Torah and perform avodah zara.

    As my bubbie of blessed memory used to say: “Feh, dey vanna kill us just like dey did to your zaydy’s parents”. To a religious Jew, converting to any other religion is like a family member being killed. If Ken could understand that ugly pain, maybe he’d see the love in NOT trying to evangelize.

    • Albert Einstein said: everyone has a right to his opinion, but no one has a right to be wrong with the fact. and you ben abraham are wrong with the facts. Matt. 5:17-20 flies in the face of your bizarre claim.

  120. So you think I was wrong with my quote from the New Testament. Of course I don’t know the NT. I have no interest in studying it, and no interest in learning about JC. None.
    All I’ve been trying to do is convince Ken that the only way he can show me love and respect is to accept my wishes to NOT hear anything about JC nor any attempts to get me to convert.
    To me, and to many many many of my fellow believing Jews, any attempt to convert us is a sign of the evil hatred inherent in many Christians. They have no respect for Jews, and will never leave us alone to worship Hashem and follow the Torah.
    In fact, Ken wants to come to Israel to try and convert Jews. To us believing Jews that is one of the most offensive, hate-filled acts that a person can do.
    Yet Ken tells me he does it out of “love”. Bah! Humbug!

    I say it again. There is no such thing as a “Messianic Jew”. Those people are Christians who pretend that they are Jews and practice some ritualistic things that Jews do. A religious believing Jew has only one G-d, and does not believe that the messiah has come. And spare me your silly attempts to bring some crazy Chabadniks into your attempts to convert us all. Those Chabadniks who think Schneerson is the messiah (and they do NOT believe that Schneerson is JC) are a tiny percentage of the Jews in the world.

    My bottom line is the same: missionary work is an evil attempt at religious genocide. The Jews have survived it before and we’ll survive your efforts in this century too.

    • ” And spare me your silly attempts to bring some crazy Chabadniks into your attempts to convert us all.”

      Do you mean:

      “Chabad’s proselytising zeal is hugely embarrassing for my argument as it proves it wrong and hypocritical – that’s before you point out how they’re trying to make a new religion like the Christians did, lol! Please don’t mention it again because it is hugely awkward especially as I’m not sure whether the Rebbe might have been the messiah after all.”

    • Joe,

      You wrote that Messianic missionaries “practice some ritualistic things that Jews do.” I don’t think that you fully captured the cynicism that characterizes Messianic missionaries.

      The fundamental underpinning of the Christian religion, it’s very starting point and what sets it totally apart from Judaism foundationally, is its decoupling from the Jews’ oral, rabbinic tradition from Sinai. The Sinaitic oral tradition is rife with general and specific refutation of Christian claims about Jesus’ messiahship. At the same time, the Christians’ New Testament is a cauldron boiling with venemous demonization of the rabbis. Yet all of the Jewish externals, the symbolism that Messianic missionaries borrow and deploy in their bid to win Jewish converts through trickery are rooted in the very oral tradition these Christians cry out to reject! From the wearing of skullcaps and prayer shawls to the lighting of Hanuka candelabras to the Sunday readings from Bible scrolls wound around two sticks, every prop Messianic missionaries use to disguise their Christianity as Judaism comes from the very Jewish source they ultimately hope to convince Jews to ignore. That is the pinnacle of Messianic missionary misanthropy.

  121. Joe, you just proved my point by eating the Chabad worm right off the hook and ignoring my main points which had nothing to do with Chabad.

    Leave Chabad out of it.

    To Jews, missionary work is the purest of evil. Those who do the missionary work are attempting to commit religious genocide against the Jews.

    There is nothing more disgusting to me than a smiling evangelical trying to get me to accept Jesus and refusing to accept my request to cease and desist from trying to convert Jews away from the Torah.

    Evangelicals keep trying to use the excuse that it’s their “religious freedom” to come to Israel and try to convert us. That is not freedom at all – it’s pure intolerance and shows their disrespect for their fellow human beings.

    Joe

    • Thanks for the suggestion and insight Paul. Joseph said: “As opposed to secretly attending Messianic conferences as if you were Messianic yourself – in the hope of winning converts to Judaism?” I have never “attended” Hebrew-Christian conferences “secretly” or masqueraded as something that I am not. I have been in places where there were Hebrew-Christian conferences. However, I did so with big banners proclaiming exactly who I am, and offering to sit and discuss why Jesus couldn’t be Messiah or G-d according to the Jewish Bible with anyone who is willing to do so. No secrecy. No deception. :-)

      • BTW, I’ll be in the same place as some Hebrew-Christian conferences this year, and the offer to sit and discuss still stands. ;-)

      • Mark, that’s fine by me, I have great sympathy for what you’re doing. I myself am thinking of setting up a table at the next RCA conference with a big banner saying “halachic Jew who believes in Jesus: come and sit and chat if you like.”

        I’m also thinking of wearing a T-shirt saying: “CAUTION: meshumad!!!!”, and getting a friend to wear an “I’m with meshumad <— " T-shirt, just in case people missed the banner.

      • I wouldn’t put it past you, Joseph. But don’t you tire of getting arrested all the time? Is that really what you think G-d wants for you?

      • I wouldn’t put it past you, Joseph.

        Thanks :)

        But don’t you tire of getting arrested all the time? Is that really what you think G-d wants for you?

        Paul, you can’t be serious!!! So if the Gestapo came back, that would be God’s way of telling people not to be Jews?? Cmon Paul you can do better than this.

      • Joseph,

        With each posting you seem to drift farther and farther from reason.

        In defense of your proposed trespass into an openly Jewish, private conference, an illegal act, you argue that doing so is akin to rebelling against an unjust, murderously anti-Semitic regime. Horsehockers!

        Of course in your juvenile conference invasion scheme, you play the role of the anti-Semite while the forces of inhumanity against which you seek to speak truth to power are portrayed by the legitimate and liberal democratic government’s police who once again find themselves distracted from their important life-saving mission to deal with the burden of reigning in an impetuous pest utterly lacking in judgement, maturity or respect. You’re some hero, Joseph.

      • Mr. Powers,

        I salute you in your efforts to be “out there” and to be open and to just be available, without pushing yourself on anyone and without making any attempt to disrespect or otherwise make a mockery of what others are doing at the conference.

        Incidentally, some here have accused you of “proselytizing”. So, do you do that? Do you try to get non-Jews to convert to Judaism? Or are you actually just a Jew talking about the Jewish religion with fellow Jews? Because, obviously if it’s the latter then Christian missionaries accusing you of proselytizing goes beyond the pot calling the kettle black.

      • Hi Paul,
        You asked, “Do you try to get non-Jews to convert to Judaism? Or are you actually just a Jew talking about the Jewish religion with fellow Jews? ” At these conference sights, it’s often difficult to determine who is Jewish and who isn’t. Usually the discussion deals with why Jesus couldn’t have been Messiah. That’s the bottom line, regardless of whether the person is Jewish or not, but the objective is to return Jews to G-d.

        BTW – it’s just Mark.

        Thanks,

        Mark

        • “Usually the discussion deals with why Jesus couldn’t have been Messiah. That’s the bottom line, regardless of whether the person is Jewish or not,”

          So Mark your real issue is with Christianity at its core, trying to destroy people’s faith in Jesus as the Messiah. How would you respond to Christian missionaries setting up a tent at some Jewish conference event in order to spread the message of Jesus to them? Not very well I would assume, yet you do exactly the same thing! You have every right to do so in a democratic country but then so has everyone else.

      • So Gev –

        Clearly I disagree with Christianity, and don’t believe that Jesus could have been the Messiah, that’s correct. However, I do acknowledge that the Great Commission is an important part of Christianity, and to tell Christians not to proselytize would be absurd. The problem still is with people who dress themselves up as Jews or represent themselves as Jews in their efforts to justify their beliefs. That still constitutes fraud and deception.

        As far as how I would “…respond to Christian missionaries setting up a tent at some Jewish conference event in order to spread the message of Jesus to them? Not very well I would assume…” I’m afraid that you are wrong. As I told Joseph, “Bring it on!” As to “You have every right to do so in a democratic country but then so has everyone else,” I whole heartedly agree.

        • “to tell Christians not to proselytize would be absurd”
          Ok Mark, you I can deal with.
          However to think that on RPP we deny that Messianic Jews are Christians in the New Testament sense of the word rather than the nominal cultural sense of the word, well you clearly haven’t been following our ongoing argument with the TOM-Js (Torah ‘observant’ Messianic Jews), but we do believe that those born Jewish and who following their own free conscience accept that Jesus is the Messiah are still Jews and there is no deception in that. I do not believe in forcing any one to believe what they don’t want to because that is not true faith, neither is any other form of emotional or material coercion acceptable, but the reality is there are many Jews who do believe that Jesus is the Messiah and the demonization of them by many Anti-messianic commentators here is sad testimony to the smear campaign waged against Messianic Jews. If Messianic Jews are no longer Jews why are people like you so interested in evangelising them with your ‘good news – evangel’?

      • “…to think that on RPP we deny that Messianic Jews are Christians in the New Testament sense of the word rather than the nominal cultural sense of the word, well you clearly haven’t been following our ongoing argument with the TOM-Js…”

        No, Gev, I wouldn’t think that you would deny your identity with Christianity, or that you “… believe that those born Jewish and who following their own free conscience accept that Jesus is the Messiah are still Jews…” It is, however, where we fundamentally disagree. It’s absurd to break Judaism (and for that matter, Christianity) into culture and religion. There is no such thing as a “cultural Jew.” A person is a Jew, regardless of their level of observance, because of a belief system that goes back to Abraham. It is through this belief system, which has certain basic boundaries, that we are and have been identifiable as Jews. Those boundaries have some elasticity to them, but there are points which take one beyond them and place an individual in another belief system. The same is true for Christianity. Regardless of one’s level of belief, if one professes a belief in Mohammed as a prophet of God, and one chooses to call God, Allah, and that God gave a New Testament in the form of the Koran, I would say that that individual, who may have been born a Jew, is no longer a Jew, but a Muslim. In the same light, would you say that a person who believes that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God – a prophet who believed in and met Jesus – and believes that God gave a Newer Testament in the form of the Book of Mormon, even though they were born into a Southern Baptist household, is a Christian?

        You ask: “If Messianic Jews are no longer Jews why are people like you so interested in evangelising them with your ‘good news – evangel’?” I think that is a great question. The essence of the answer is in what you wrote earlier. “… we do believe that those born Jewish and who following their own free conscience accept that Jesus is the Messiah are still Jews…” I don’t accept as fact that they are following “…their own free conscience…”. Most, if not all, of the former Jews that I have met were tricked into their belief by exactly what you are doing. Dressing Christianity up to look Jewish, and selling it to unsuspecting, Jewishly ignorant Jews. That’s deception, and the coercion that you say you are against. While there may be a few former Jews who know a bit more than others, for the most part, they have no better than a third grade Jewish education, if that. Take them off the track that they learned in their church, and they are lost. I don’t believe, BTW, that they should be demonized. That’s why I “evangelize” to my lost brothers and sisters, because I have a responsibilty to “rescue the captives.”

        • Mark, no one is born a Christian, people may live in culture influenced by New Testament teaching and values, but this is the myth of nominal Christianity, people become Christians, what the New Testament calls Cristianos because all the first disciples of Jesus were Jewish people and as they spread into the Roman Empire they were speaking Greek and talking about the Cristos (Greek for Mashiach) all the time, so they were nick-named Cristianos, which in English in Christian, hence anyone, irrespective of national heritage who follows Jesus becomes a Cristianos-Christian-follower of the Christ-Messiah-Moshiach. People are born into Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox families etc.. because they are cultural identites that have been formed with a New Testament orientation, however there are non Greek Orthodox Greeks and non-Catholic Italians or what ever other nationality they are.

      • Gev –
        Thank you for making my point, even if you didn’t answer my question. Christianity is a faith system just as Judaism is. One can become a Christian by accepting the tenets of Christianity. One can become a Jew as well, even though one wasn’t born into a Jewish family. But one can also cease being a Christian by accepting other beliefs that are incompatable with the tenets of Christianity. The same is true for a Jew who accepts tha tenets of another faith system. So let me rephrase my question: “would you say that a person who believes that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God – a prophet who believed in and met Jesus – and believes that God gave a Newer Testament in the form of the Book of Mormon, even though they” initially claimed to accept the statement of faith put out by the Southern Baptists?

        • So Mark most Jews are not born Jews, they become Jews or those that are born Jews have to believe something to stay Jews,or is it a case of what they don’t believe!?

          I accept all people even those I disagree with, in any case show me a Morman, any Morman, that accepts the Southern Baptists statement of faith, some Baptist statements are pretty broad, the church of england even accomodates atheists!

      • And, Gev, there are non-Jewish Israelis, but there are no Jewish Buddhists, no Jewish Mormons and no Jewish Christians, just as there are no Christians Buddhist because these are seperate and distinct faith systems. I’m waiting for your answer on the Mormons. :-O

        • So Mark none of the thousands of Israelis JuBus are Jews, what about all the New Agers, so being Jewish is only about what you believe and the lifestyle you lead, not about who you are born!? I am not talking about non-Jews by birth, but halachically Jewish people who are no longer frum.

      • Gev,

        Anyone who was not born a Jew or who did not become a Jew (in either case, as defined by the Jewish tradition from Sinai), Jews will not object to your proselytizing.

        Anyone who was born a Jew or who did become a Jew, Jews will be offended by your proselytizing efforts.

        And, anyone whom you seek to to proselytize by presenting your Christianity as Judaism will be an affront to all people of good will no matter their religion.

        Your methods are unconscionable.

        • PoP once again you take it upon yourself to speak for more people than yourself. You are offended by our faith and the fact we are not ashamed of it, nor afraid to defend it, yet here you are again putting yourself in offences way, you just love being offended and keep coming back for more to fuel you sense of outrage and then try to proselytize us to your view of what you think our religious commitments should be.

      • So Gev –

        “…Jews have to believe something to stay Jews,or is it a case of what they don’t believe…”
        “…so being Jewish is only about what you believe and the lifestyle you lead, not about who you are born!? I am not talking about non-Jews by birth, but halachically Jewish people who are no longer frum.”

        Earlier in this discussion I believe I said: ” A person is a Jew, regardless of their level of observance, because of a belief system that goes back to Abraham.” Whether a person is “frum” or not , is not part of the criteria. People who are born Jewish – yes, Gev, one can be born into a Jewish family, but that has nothing to do with culture – it is part of the faith system set up by G-d. Would you recognize Esau as Jewish, or did the fact that he strayed from G-d’s teaching remove him from the Jewish people? Were his family members considered Jewish? We are discussing an act of omission verses an act of co-mission. If you are traveling down the interstate at 85 mph and the little sign on the side says “Speed Limit 55″, does that mean that you are no longer an American, or are you an American that should be doing better? If you go over to England, and swear allegience to the Crown, did you voluntarily give up your citizenship as an American or not?

        “Regardless of one’s level of belief, if one professes a belief in Mohammed as a prophet of God, and one chooses to call God, Allah, and believe that God gave a New Testament in the form of the Koran, I would say that that individual, who may have been born a Jew, is no longer a Jew, but a Muslim.” What would you say?

        “…none of the thousands of Israelis JuBus are Jews.” Correct. They are Buddhists. “…what about all the New Agers?…” here it isn’t clear that they have accepted another faith system, so it depends, yes, on what they believe.

        You said: “I accept all people even those I disagree with, in any case show me a Morman, any Morman, that accepts the Southern Baptists statement of faith…” Come on Gev, you know that’s not what I said, but I’ll be happy to repeat it for clarity: “…would you say that a person who believes that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God – a prophet who believed in and met Jesus – and believes that God gave a Newer Testament in the form of the Book of Mormon, even though they” INITIALLY claimed to accept the statement of faith put out by the Southern Baptists, is a Christian? Obviously, they no longer accept the Southern Baptist statement of faith, but they do claim to be a Christian. I am eagerly awaiting your answer to the question.

        • So when does a Jewish boy become Jewish, at birth, bris, bar mitzvah or what, and Jewish girls? So Jewishness for you is not an ethnic thing at all, simply a commitment to a set of religious priciples?

          We all know that the line of promise did not even go through Esau so that line of argument is specious.

          It is pretty clear that New Age is a very different faith system to Judaism, it is earth worship paganism. So a huge number of halachically born Israeli Jews you would disbar from being called Jews anymore! But not everyone agrees with your definition of who is a Jew, the State of Israel was founded with that unresolved definition remaining unanswered.

          On the Mormon thing, it depends what you mean by Christian, the Church of England has atheist vicars, even a Bishop of Durham who denied the virgin birth and liberal Protestant scholars around the world deny most of the Bible and traditional theology, most English people consider themselves Church of England but do not believe in God or simply don’t care. I do know Mormans who consider themselves Christians but continue in Mormon society. So you see Mark it all depends of who or what is a Christian much as it depends on your definition of who is a Jew.

      • “So Jewishness for you is not an ethnic thing at all, simply a commitment to a set of religious priciples?

        We all know that the line of promise did not even go through Esau so that line of argument is specious.”

        Over Shavuot we read the Book of Ruth. She wasn’t “born Jewish” was she? Yet by making ” a commitment to a set of religious priciples” she became Jewish. As I have said before, one can opt into the system, and one can opt out. The question about Esau wasn’t specious at all, and I didn’t ask any thing about “the line of promise .” I asked if he and his descendants were considered Jewish. You didn’t answer that question.

        “…New Age is a very different faith system to Judaism, it is earth worship paganism. So a huge number of halachically born Israeli Jews you would disbar from being called Jews anymore!”

        If they make atree into a god, then clearly they have left the system, and cannot be considered Jewish, yes.

        “But not everyone agrees with your definition of who is a Jew, the State of Israel was founded with that unresolved definition remaining unanswered.”

        Now talk about your specious arguements, unless, of course you are just ignorant of what the “unanswered” is. The “Unanswered” is not “who is a Jew”, but rather, “who is a convert.”

        “On the Mormon thing, it depends what you mean by Christian, the Church of England has atheist vicars, even a Bishop of Durham who denied the virgin birth and liberal Protestant scholars around the world deny most of the Bible and traditional theology, most English people consider themselves Church of England but do not believe in God or simply don’t care. I do know Mormans who consider themselves Christians but continue in Mormon society. So you see Mark it all depends of who or what is a Christian much as it depends on your definition of who is a Jew.”

        Come on Gev, I gave you a specific set of circumstances, and still you dodge the question. I have tried to be open and honest with you, and answer your questions directly. It’s amazing to me that you can’t do the same. I didn’t ask you about MY definition of a Christian. I didn’t even ask you about YOUR definition of a Christian. What I said, in case you missed it, was: “…would you say that a person who believes that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God – a prophet who believed in and met Jesus – and believes that God gave a Newer Testament in the form of the Book of Mormon, even though they” INITIALLY claimed to accept the statement of faith put out by the Southern Baptists, is a Christian? Obviously, they no longer accept the Southern Baptist statement of faith.” Don’t give me “Church of England”, just answer the question.

      • “If they make atree into a god, then clearly they have left the system, and cannot be considered Jewish, yes.”

        Kabbalistic Judaism raises the mystical concept of the Tree of Life representing the structure of the godhead – Messianic Jews say Jesus died on a tree.

        Factor in the panentheism of the Hasidim and who really worships trees here: Messianic Jews or Orthodox Jews?

      • “So Joseph, are you now claiming that Hasidic Jews worship trees?”

        Mark, don’t you claim that Messianic Jews worship trees?

        We don’t worship trees, we worship God who died on a tree, and we don’t believe he stayed there.

        We don’t believe there is any mystical value to the tree which Yeshua died upon, nor anything mystical in the concept of a tree.

        But regarding the question of whether the hasidim worship trees, this is what the Vilna Gaon said of the hasidim:

        “They call themselves Hasidim – this is an abomination! How they have deceived this generation, uttering these words on high: “These are thy gods, O Israel: every stick and stone.” They interpret the Torah incorrectly regarding the verse “Blessed be the name of the glory of God from His dwelling place” (Ezekiel 3:12) and also regarding the verse: “…and You give life to everything” (Nehemiah 9:6)”

        So was the Vilna Gaon right or wrong?

      • OK Joseph, here we go again. You said: “Mark, don’t you claim that Messianic Jews worship trees?” Please show me where I have ever made such a claim.

        As for the comment by the Gaon of Vilna, I think you need a little context.

      • when you said:

        “If they make atree into a god, then clearly they have left the system, and cannot be considered Jewish, yes.”

        Are you talking about Pagan Jews here or Messianic Jews?

      • “…New Age is a very different faith system to Judaism, it is earth worship paganism. So a huge number of halachically born Israeli Jews you would disbar from being called Jews anymore!”

        If they make a tree into a god, then clearly they have left the system, and cannot be considered Jewish, yes.

        In answering Gev’s question, I was referring to New Agers who might worship trees, not Hebrew-Christians.

        Of course, making a man into a god does place Hebrew-Christians in the same situation. “… they have left the system, and cannot be considered Jewish…”

      • “In answering Gev’s question, I was referring to New Agers who might worship trees, not Hebrew-Christians.”

        Oh fair enough then, right-o.

        Of course, making a man into a god does place Hebrew-Christians in the same situation. “… they have left the system, and cannot be considered Jewish…”

        But then what about Chabad and Breslov – aren’t they doing exactly the same? Do you still consider them Jewish?

        As for the comment by the Gaon of Vilna, I think you need a little context.

        Here’s the context:

        Their stubborn hearts insist on rejecting good and choosing evil, transgressing the Torah and changing its laws… In the Torah of Moses they have established a new covenant, working out their evil schemes with the masses in the House of the Lord… interpreting the Torah falsely while claiming that their way is precious in the eyes of God… They call themselves Hasidim – this is an abomination! How they have deceived this generation, uttering these words on high: “These are thy gods, O Israel: every stick and stone.” They interpret the Torah incorrectly regarding the verse “Blessed be the name of the glory of God from His dwelling place” (Ezekiel 3:12) and also regarding the verse: “…and You give life to everything” (Nehemiah 9:6)

        You can find this quote from the Gaon of Vilna on p.11 of this book:

        http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=2AGqwFOOZdYC&dq=faith+of+the+mithnagdim&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=fIOdS8DxB4z00gSnhczVAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBcQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=&f=false

      • Mark >>>Of course, making a man into a god does place Hebrew-Christians in the same situation. “… they have left the system, and cannot be considered Jewish…”

        Ken–
        On the otherhand, what if Israel rejected the God-Man Messiah? In that case Israel and modern Jewry would follow in the footsteps of ancient Israel who also rejected their God.

        I take great joy in the freedom of speech that allows Jewish persons to choose to follow Yeshua as Messiah. As a gentile I support human rights for my Jewish Christian brethren.

        Non-Christians are free to classify themselves and us too as non-Jewish. We are likewise to classify ourselves as true inheritors of YAHWEH’s true religion.

      • “Ken–
        On the otherhand, what if Israel rejected the God-Man Messiah? In that case Israel and modern Jewry would follow in the footsteps of ancient Israel who also rejected their God.”

        Gee, Ken, isn’t that what this whole discussion is about? Maybe you’re worship a false god?

        “I take great joy in the freedom of speech that allows Jewish persons to choose to follow Yeshua as Messiah. As a gentile I support human rights for my Jewish Christian brethren.”

        Gee, Ken, so do I! But I lao support full disclosure, which many of your co-religionists don’t.

        “Non-Christians are free to classify themselves and us too as non-Jewish. We are likewise to classify ourselves as true inheritors of YAHWEH’s true religion.”

        You can call yourself an eggplant, Ken, but it doesn’t make it true either.

      • Ken–
        “I take great joy in the freedom of speech that allows Jewish persons to choose to follow Yeshua as Messiah. As a gentile I support human rights for my Jewish Christian brethren.”

        Mark P–
        Gee, Ken, so do I! But I lao support full disclosure, which many of your co-religionists don’t.

        Ken–
        Are you sure? In that case you must condemn the acts of censorship against religious freedom in Israel.

        You must support the right of Jewish Christians to speak freely on public streets, to worship in private homes and churches and temples without invasion, and to enjoy peace and security on the public streets and the use and enjoyment [legal term] of their private residences.

        As for full disclosure, I wonder if you also condemn the lies of so-called anti-missionaries who pass themselves off as MJs.

        MJs do tell the truth. They dress as Jews because they ARE Jews.

        They speak Hebrew or NYC English because they live there!

        They honor OT holy days because they want to honor God by these days.

        You want them to stop calling themselves Jews. They don’t have to.

      • “…I also support full disclosure, which many of your co-religionists don’t.”

        “Ken–
        Are you sure? In that case you must condemn the acts of censorship against religious freedom in Israel.

        You must support the right of Jewish Christians to speak freely on public streets, to worship in private homes and churches and temples without invasion, and to enjoy peace and security on the public streets and the use and enjoyment [legal term] of their private residences.”

        I’m not sure which “acts of censorship” you are referring to. Israel isn’t the United States, and the laws are not the same. To hold Israel up to the same standard as the US when it has different laws is absurd.

        I support the Israeli law which clearly states that everyone has the right to worship as they please, and that people have the right to speak freely about their religion, even in the public streets. I also support the Israeli law which allows prosyletyzing as long as there are no “inducements” for the individual to convert. It was this law that allowed Morris Cerullo, for example, to mail thousands of copies of his booklet to homes all over Israel. However, to offer inducements that are thinly disguised as “soup kitchens” or “clothing centers” is, in my not so humble opinion, illegal based on the law, and should be closed down. They, however, remain open and undesturbed by the government.

        “As for full disclosure, I wonder if you also condemn the lies of so-called anti-missionaries who pass themselves off as MJs.”

        As I told Joseph – time and place, please.

        “MJs do tell the truth. They dress as Jews because they ARE Jews.”

        Baloney!!! I was in a hotel in California during a Hebrew-Christian conference, and on Friday night out came the long black coats, black hats and women wearing head coverings. If I didn’t know any better, I would have thought that I was in Brooklyn. These people didn’t dress tyhat way the entire week. It was like Halloween! That’s simply fraud!

        “They speak Hebrew or NYC English because they live there!”

        So do Israeli Ba’hai’s, but they’re not Jewish either.

        “They honor OT holy days because they want to honor God by these days. ”

        Do they also check for shatnez?

        You want them to stop calling themselves Jews. They don’t have to.

        Oh, please, Ken. If one acknowledges Jesus as god and messiah, believes in the trinity, reveres the Christian Bible as the word of god, etc., etc., then they are a Christian, and not a Jew. These are two mutually exclusive faith systems, and one can’t be both.

        The one question that you didn’t address is: Do you support full disclosure, which many of your co-religionists don’t?

      • Gev – what happened? Cat got your typing finger? I’m still waiting for an answer to the question I originally possed on May 18th, and the subsequent clarifications after you ducked the question. “I gave you a specific set of circumstances, and still you dodge the question. I have tried to be open and honest with you, and answer your questions directly. It’s amazing to me that you can’t do the same. I didn’t ask you about MY definition of a Christian. I didn’t even ask you about YOUR definition of a Christian. What I said, in case you missed it, was: “…would you say that a person who believes that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God – a prophet who believed in and met Jesus – and believes that God gave a Newer Testament in the form of the Book of Mormon, even though they” INITIALLY claimed to accept the statement of faith put out by the Southern Baptists, is a Christian? Obviously, they no longer accept the Southern Baptist statement of faith.” Don’t give me “Church of England”, just answer the question.”

        • Hello Mark, been away so missed your question in catching up on all the comments & posts. BTW you are easily amazed!

          If a person accepts Jesus is Lord and Messiah, it doesn’t matter how faulty their theology may be at the time or afterwards. To be a Christian according to a New Testament definition is not measured by accepting any denominational statement of faith it is about spiritual regeneration through the Messiah Jesus.

    • Joe,

      On the contrary -everybody has the right to walk away. Intolerance is where they send you a bomb disguised as a purim gift.

      You see Joe, if we really believe that Y’shua is the genuine Messiah of Israel -and we do. The greatest and most evil thing that we could do is hide it from you and never tell you. That would be the most horrible act of Antisemitism that we could think of.

      You may not like us, you may go ahead and be disgusted with us and hate us, you may one day stone us to death, or in the meantime bore us to death with diatribes like Paul of Palleywood. But that will not stop the ongoing commandment of God that we have to tell it out, what you do with the information is entirely up to you.

      • OK Joe, bring it on! Like, Hebrew-Christian have never done that before? However, if you are going to be honest, your banner would have to read “Halachic Former Jew”. We’ll also have to see if they threaten to have you arrested if you enter the conference. :-o

      • BTW, you never did give me the time and place where you claimed that I was: “… secretly attending Messianic conferences as if you were Messianic yourself.” Would you please provide that for me?

      • Leon – you are not only wrong, but you are offensively wrong trying a weak line ” Intolerance is where they send you a bomb disguised as a purim gift.”

        I’m not talking about those attacks against evangelical Christians, which are totally against the law and the perpetrator appears to finally be arrested and should get a life sentence for attempted murder.

        Christians of your type should rename yourselves the Catchecism-22s. You tell us you can’t be a Christian without telling us Jews about it, but we tell you we don’t want to hear it. You tell us the only way you can live your life is to tell us about it and you’re going to tell us whether or not we want to hear it. And we do not want to hear it.
        So you ignore the Jews and try to tell us about Jesus anyway. We tell you again we don’t want to hear it. Your buddy Ken says that after I tell him to his face I don’t want to hear it he’ll let me live in peace. You tell me you won’t let me live in peace, but you’ll but a kotz in tuchis forever trying to get me to believe in Jesus.

        You call that your religion. I call it being a total pain in the ass and a danger to my fellow Jews.
        Your goal, of course, is total religious genocide – wiping the Jews totally off the religious map and making the world entirely Christian.

        We call that evil. You can call it whatever you like, it’s still evil.

        • “total religious genocide” come on Joe BA lay off the hysterical language, do you really believe this or is it just a convenient stick to hit people with in the hope that they will shut up!? Do you not want the total spiritual genocide of Messianic Jews Joe BA?

          If you don’t want to hear about Jesus anymore then why do you keep on coming back to RPP and engaging people in debate, no one is forcing you yet you can’t seem to stop. You do not talk for everyone, just yourself and if any missionary came to speak to you and you told them to ‘go away’, they would, but there are many more people in the world who want to know more about Jesus. Hey feel free to comment again but don’t complain when people talk about Jesus here on RPP and defend the rights of Messianic Jews to exist and have the chutzpah to talk about faith in Jesus. If you don’t want to hear it, don’t keep coming back.

          Joe BA in your opinion is the secular state of Israel evil because it enables and legally protects secular Jewish life?

      • In re. Joseph (5/14 @ 11:25am):

        “Oh sorry, an unfounded allegation, my apologies Mark.”–eom

        This is Joseph the liar’s technique:
        No. 1: Post outrageous anti-Jewish libels and drastic, Christianized revisions of Jewish history.
        No. 2: Document the lies by attaching links to other unscholarly and dishonest Web sites, including other poor quality blogs he authors.
        No. 3: Remain silent when the true facts are brought to light, or claim that, while his evidence is false, or as he puts it, it isn’t “water-tight”, it somehow is still worthy of consideration!
        No. 4: Under enough pressure, finally respond to substantiate lies by changing the subject to, of all things, pedophilia, and then launch into random slander attacks against religious Jews.
        No. 5: When all else fails, shrug shoulders and slink away with an obviously disingenuous “sorry feller”.
        No. 6: Start over at step number 1, often repeating the exact same lie he just “sorry feller’d” over.

        • Paul of Palleywood’s liar technique

          Messianic Jews – nazis
          Christians -nazis
          when under sustained challenge accuse people of being spiritual nazis
          Gentiles – nazis
          everyone who doesn’t agree with Pop – nazis, nazis, nazis

      • Joe,

        You make an interesting point about the objective missionaries have for the Jewish people.

        I won’t disagree with you–your observation is accurate. I’ll sharpen it with this, though: the Nazis sought only the physical annihilation of the Jews, which was obviously historically incomparable in its evil. But missionaries like Joseph who seek to cause Jews to sever their relationship with the G-d by serving a three-part godhood do far more damage to the Jews they entrap than Hitler ever did. The Germans killed innocent Jews’ bodies, but Joseph is enticing Jews to commit suicide on a spiritual, eternal level. Thus the Messianic tricksters are engaged, however generally ineffectually, in a business that is far more severely perverse than Hitler’s relatively sharpshooting minions ever were.

        • “But missionaries like Joseph who seek to cause Jews to sever their relationship with the G-d by serving a three-part godhood do far more damage to the Jews they entrap than Hitler ever did.”

          Paul of bonkerswood, this is an outrageous overreaction to an argument you find hard to win without having to wheel-out such emotive insults to try batter people down. PoP’s response to everything – Nazi, nazi, nazi. PoP this hysterical defamation may work elsewhere but not here.

      • Gev wrote of my entries here that they “may work elsewhere but not here”.

        The problem Gev is having is that for him, truth is relative. I don’t deal in that sort of “truth”, which I guess is why Christian Messianism isn’t for me. I consider the Hebrew scripture reliable, not just occasionally so.

        And to Gev’s accusation that I consider all Christians to be Nazi’s, I can only reply that such an outlook is a breathtaking affront I am insulted to have attributed to me. It’s as false as anything else that has been reported by the bloggers here (which is very, very false). For the record, I regard the majority of Christendom as honorable and decent people, but I regard the tiny minority of Christians who choose to proselytize the Jews by pretending to be Jewish as the snakes in the grass that they are. And I am gratified that most Christians agree with me that there is no defense of a missionary who attempts to recruit Jewish proselytes by means of deceit.

        • My problem with PoP is his hysterical trolling and constant whinging on about missionaries and Messianic Jews and then pretending to be a friend of only the Christians he says agree with… him… priceless.

      • Gev wrote: “ONLY [emphasis added] the Christians he says….”

        That’s right, I have nothing but respect for ONLY the 99.9% of the Christian world that rejects Messianic foolery. I adore Christians who are genuinely into cordial and respectful interfaith relations. It’s only the fringe groups like the Gev and Joseph act, which most Christians find embarrassing, that I join with Christendom in denouncing.

        • PoP you are in for a shock, most Christians would affirm Jews who follow Jesus as Jews and as Messianic Jews, don’t know where you get this stat from, daydreaming again Pop.

      • Gev,

        I don’t know if you have a short memory or a reading comprehension disability, but either way I don’t mind re-posting the mainline churches’ vocal rejection of Messianic conversion cults:

        * “Some Thoughts on ‘Messianic Judaism'”, Eugene J. Fisher, Associate Director of the Secretariat for Ecumenical and interreligious Affairs, National Conference of Catholic Bishops (http://www.bc.edu/research/cjl/meta-elements/texts/cjrelations/resources/articles/messianicjews.htm)

        * Interview with Billy Graham, McCall’s, January 1978: “Graham once believed that Jews, too, were lost if they did not convert to Christianity. Today Graham is willing to leave that up to God… Billy is particularly opposed to evangelical groups such as Jews for Jesus’ who have made Jews the special target of their proselytizing efforts… ‘If a person wants to convert to Christianity, that is his own freewill decision,’ Billy declares… I would never go after someone just because he is a Jew, which is why I have never supported the Jewish missions.”

        * “EVERLASTING COVENANT: PRESBYTERIANS AND JEWS AT THE CROSSROADS”, “But this year, it was not so much what the Assembly didn’t do, as what it did do that was so offensive to Presbyterians of good will and hopeful spirit. Four actions of the Assembly have been highly controversial in the Jewish community for their apparent and real insensitivity to the larger issues of interfaith dialogue and religious discussion. The controversy has been widely covered in the Jewish press in this country….” (http://www.pcjcr.org/waltonsermon.htm).

        Dishonest proselytizing schemes have garnered the collective disdain of the Christian world, and rightly so: you deserve it, Gev.

      • “Do you not want the total spiritual genocide of Messianic Jews Joe BA?”

        Nope, and you are showing that you don’t bother reading. Go on, scroll up and read me again:

        1) There is no such thing as “Messianic Jews”. You are Christians.

        2) I want you people to leave us alone. Stop pretending that you are Jews (you’re not, you’re Christians) and stop trying to convert Jews.

        I want you to go away and leave us alone. Be fruitful and multiply and go pray to your own god(s). Live your lives as you see fit, but if you are in the Jewish homeland you are NOT welcome to practice a version of Christianity that compels you to try and convert Jews away from Torah.

        However, I accept that in your totally warped mindset you will reject the wishes of the Jewish people and continue to pretend that you are both Christian and Jew (an impossible combination to anybody but yourselves).

        You will thus continue to bring despair on yourselves, and no doubt you’ll call it the will of Christ. We call it the will of cult followers who have no minds of their own.

        I’ll continue to associate with my Christian and Catholic friends, all of whom accept me as a Jew and have never tried to preach to me or convert me.

        You, on the other hand, will earn my wrath if I come across you in the street in Jerusalem trying to peddle Jesus to the Jews.

        • “You, on the other hand, will earn my wrath if I come across you in the street in Jerusalem trying to peddle Jesus to the Jews.”

          Beautiful Joe BA beautiful, I don’t peddle anything but bikes on streets but just because of that I would love to meet you on a street and see how your threat of wrath plays out, now I am intrigued. Are you one of those rioting fruitcakes in Jerusalem who beat women for wearing short skirts and burn bins to stop bones being moved! You are living in denial, Messianic Jews exist and will exist whether you like it or not.

          You on here trying to convert us to your thinking and values. No one needs your permission to believe what they want, speak to who they want, you ought to be living in Iran with an ideology of free speech and freedom on religion that you display.

      • Gev,

        I think I can speak for Joe and Jews everywhere then: we’re relieved that you agree everyone should be left to believe in the religion they choose, without interference from missionaries. You’re right that you don’t need anyone’s permission to believe whatever you like. And by the same token, you need to butt out of Jews’ religious lives.

        • So why are you butting into mine here PoP, you are a trolling hypocrite. ‘the missionaries’ are such an easy fall guy, a great straw doll to knock down aint they, but here you go again speaking for more people than yourself.

      • Gev,

        When you’re out on the Web, making a public spectacle of intentionally confusing and blurring the important contours of competing Jewish and Christian theologies for the express purpose not of celebrating your own religious observance for rather in order to convince Jews to jump ship to your faith, then at that point you’re not butting out of others’ religions and you therefore have forfeited your entitlement to go unchallenged yourself

        But you say all you want is to be left alone by the Jews. So I’ll make you a deal. Change this Web site’s name to “Christians for Christianity: An alternative (to the Jewish way) of looking at Jesus”, and focus the essays on Christian rather than Jewish leaders, historical figures, movements and texts, and then I will happily leave you to your own devices. Until then, you’re messing around with other faith groups and I will be right here with you every step of the way to correct your lies. And, I don’t think you’re gonna change your stripes. And you know what? I kind of like it here.

        • PoP reading things in the way the suits himself yet again!
          I don’t mind being challenged, I kinda like it, I am demonstrating what a hypocritical troll you are coming on here doing to us what you criticise ‘the missionaries’ are doing to ‘the jews’, hey I love a good row as much as a gentle exchange of views that is why we’ve let you stay on rpp despite the constant trolling.

      • Gev… I’m as much a woman-beater as you are a child-molestor. See how much faith I have in your integrity?

        However, I do come across Christians in Jerusalem pretending they are Jews and trying to hand out material about Jesus printed in Hebrew.

        Ask your buddy who was standing a couple of months ago across from the tachana merkazit. I simply stood beside him and yelled to the public that a I was standing beside a Christian missionary who was trying to convert Jews to Christianity. I told him what a disgusting, intolerant human being I thought he was. Out loud.

        It turns out he claimed he was a practicing “Messianic Jew” but his knowledge of Judaism was pretty sparse, he told me hey hadn’t prayed his morning prayers and had not put on his tefillin. He refused to answer when I asked if he actually had a pair.

        My guess is he was some naive, poorly educated sucker who got hooked in by some missionaries and who convinced him to abandon his Judaism and adopt avoda zarah, but they lied to him and told him he could still call himself a Jew.

        Anyhow, he gave up and walked away after about one minute of my wrath.
        If I ever seem him on the streets peddling his brand of religion and trying to reap souls, he’ll get the same public exposing.

        As I said before: you show your ignorance and intolerance by putting words in my mouth and bearing false witness against me – a sin for you, no?

        Read my posting. I’m not trying to convert you. I said you have the right to live your life in peace, and I believe you do not have the right to try and convert Jews to Christianity.

        And no, there is no such thing as a Messianic Jew except to another Messianic Jew. Even to Christians you are Christians.

        You owe me an apology for saying false things about me.

        • I told you Joe BA I peddle only a bike, seldom go to the bus station! Your wrath is a bit lame Joe BA – ‘public exposing!’ don’t you get arrested for that! Anyway Joe BA what would you do without your missionaries to keep you busy and make your life a little more interesting, wouldn’t you faith be a bit flat if all you had to do was daven all day?

          So just having something is Hebrew is enough to claim someone is pretending to be a Jew, was he an-ex Jew in your opinion then, was he ever a real Jew at all if he didn’t know Judaism, in your opinion. Who is a Jew, is it birth, birth and belief, or just belief?

          You are trying to convert me to your way of thinking about what my faith should be, admit it, don’t live in denial, I don’t mind

          BTW most Christians do accept Messianic Jews as Jews.

      • So, Joseph, you still maintain that I represented myself as a Hewbrew-Christian? Time and place please.

        No, I accept you were open about your identity, of course going to a messianic conference doesn’t make you a Hebrew Christian any more than going to a garage makes you a car.

        Is that okay?

      • And, by the same token, Joseph, your advancement of purely Christian theology doesn’t shore up your claim to be a Jew any more than your presence in a garage would support an assertion that you’re a car.

        Just as surely as your encouragement of Jews to violate G-d’s Biblical commandments removed you from being one of them, your lack of a steering wheel prevents you from entering the congregation of automobiles.

      • But Joseph, we weren’t talking about cars or garages were we? We were talking about whether you were bearing false witness in claiming that I did something that you accused me of. I think it’s clear that your claim was not just unsubstantiated, but patently false.

  122. “I wouldn’t put it past you, Joseph. But don’t you tire of getting arrested all the time? Is that really what you think G-d wants for you”

    Paul of Palleywood, he never got arrested, but the anti-zionist vicar that misused his place in society, got a kicking in the UK press for sending the cops to a blogger who was just reporting all he was saying and doing to an audience the vicar didn’t intend.

  123. From the Jews for Jesus newsletter–

    Behold Your God Israel

    Please be praying for the next BYG Israel campaign, which we hope to be able to report on very soon. Pray for fruitful ministry, and spiritual and physical stamina for those involved. And please also pray that God will even turn around those things our opposition may do in attempts to thwart us, that His own purposes will yet be served.

  124. From the Jewish prayer book:

    “Let there be no hope for informers, and may all the heretics and all the wicked instantly perish; may all the enemies of Your people be speedily extirpated; and may You swiftly uproot, break, crush and subdue the reign of wickedness speedily in our days. Blessed are You L-rd, who crushes enemies and subdues the wicked.”

    For those who don’t know Jewish history, the heretics referenced in this composition by the humble Samuel are specifically those Christian missionaries who pose as Jews.

    • “For those who don’t know Jewish history, the heretics referenced in this composition by the humble Samuel are specifically those Christian missionaries who pose as Jews.”

      Ah right, cheers, I thought it was about Sesame Street characters.

    • Would that be considered anti-semitic if it were stated by Billy Graham or the Pope about moslems or Jews?

      Are modern Jews equally embarrassed by Samuel’s prayer as would we true Christians be if it were made by one of ours?

      To what use do modern Jews put this prayer? Is it a meaningless, forgotten artifact of bygone times… best forgotten?

      • Ken,

        The Christian response to Jews’ refusal to accept Christianity has historically been violent. The Jews response to heretics attempting to spiritually murder their children has been to ask G-d to protect them.

        The Jews have nothing to be ashamed of in their prayer, but the Christian community has much to be embarrassed about in its history, and, outside of this brazen and immoral blogspace, the churches have made great strides in expressing that shame and thereby mending interfaith relations.

        To your question about the continued need for such a prayer, the existence of a well-heeled Christian Messianic movement attests that the prayer remains as important and relevant as ever. Far from being forgotten, Jews recite it thrice daily in prayer meetings–often by heart. It has sustained the Jewish people through two millennia of proselytization, and it solicits their protection from you now.

        And to your question as to whether Christians have prayers about which they ought to be embarrassed, unfortunately the answer has become “yes” again. John Ratzinger, the confessed Hitler Youth retiree cum whitewasher of Hitler’s pope, has seen fit to trot back out from the dustbin of unmentionable history the Latin rite, including its appeal to “perfidious Jews” to embrace the cross. Christians everywhere have good cause to be embarrassed by Ratzinger.

  125. “… may You swiftly uproot, break, crush and subdue the reign of wickedness speedily in our days.”

    Oops, Samuel’s days have been over for a long time. To whom does that refer again?

    • Marylou,

      You have tons and tons of Jewish relatives. Remember, they’re the proof that you couldn’t possibly insult the memory of the 6 million victims of Luther-inspired Nazis when you offer excuses for those modern-day Christians who proudly call themselves Lutherans. Perhaps you should ask one of them whom the author of the “Lamalshinim”, or 19th of “the 18″ prayers was, and what special problem it was composed to address.

      The rampant ignorance of the very Jewish subject this blogspace is meant to be a forum for expertise on is startling.

      • That, or you could identify whom you are talking about for the ignorant among us. Don’t bother now — I’ve already found him: Samuel HaKatan, if anyone else didn’t get it.

      • Marylou,

        Notwithstanding the condescending attitude in your postings, you ought to consider whether you’re really qualified to educate others about Jewish/Christian topics when you clearly don’t have a grasp of even the A, B, C’s of the comparative history that defines these religions even in broad strokes.

  126. For what it is worth I have compassion upon ex-Nazis and ex-Communists… even upon those who murdered Jews and my people who are evangelicals.

    Did you know that God also forgives whoever repents and asks for mercy?

    • Unfortunately, your misplaced Christian compassion is not worth very much to mass murderers–not in the long-run, at least. The trouble, according to the Jewish or Sanaitic concept of justice, is that the Nazis didn’t murder you. If they had, then your forgiveness would be valuable to them (though obviously impossible to secure).

      The only people with legal and moral standing, as the Jewish tradition defines it, to forgive the Nazis are all dead now and therefore incapable of granting forgiveness the way a living person could.

      Did you know that the G-d of Israel does not forgive sins which men commit against one another, but only the sins men repent of after committing directly against Him?

      • Thereby proving the superiority of Christian Judaism over anti-Christian Judaism. You see we Christians have supernatural power to forgive, and this forgiveness has led some former Nazis and former Communists to repent and become members together with us in the New Israel.

        As for one’s personally being a “dead” victim in order to forgive, you err on several counts. Firstly a living survivor of the persecutions can forgive the deaths of loved ones, beatings, and loss of property and freedom. Did not Jesus the Messiah promise to restore more in His Kingdom? Yes, and see how much more superior God’s Way is over your way.

        Secondly, you suppose nations and people groups cannot be forgiven, liberated, and set free. The result is more internal division in your ranks and perpetual war without.

      • >>> Ken, we are asked to forgive those who trespass against us, not against others.

        Gev, are we not inheritors of Peter’s keys to the Kingdom? What we declare bound on Earth is bound in Heaven and set free [from sin and death] is set free in Heaven.

        Also you have fallen into Paul’s semantic trap. Review my post. I never said I was in a position to forgive Nazis and Communists. I said I had compassion for them.

      • Actually Ken, if you read the Greek Peter could only declare bound or loosed what had already been bound or loosed in heaven, and I think that you will find that the whole context had more to do with congregational discipline and doctrinal authority than forgiveness.

  127. Let’s take Ken’s logic to the next obvious level: I declare that I am a believing Jewish-Baptist-Noachidist.
    Thus, I call on all Baptists to obey the revelation that they must obey the 7 Noachide laws and must immediately abandon evangelism, which is now outdated and outmoded and the Lord calls on me to spread the word.

    I believe that all Baptists are in fact descended from Jews, and because they do not accept the Torah in its fullness they are obligated to keep the Noachide laws, and only those. Anybody who preaches to me is thus a heathen who will be damned for eternity for forsaking G-d’s will.

    To become a true Baptist in the eyes of G-d, you must accept the Torah and be immersed in a ritual bath. This is the true baptism and G-d wants Ken and all other Baptists to leave their wayward ways and come back to Him.

    Ken…it is incumbent upon you to learn the Laws, make it a sign on your arm and a frontlet between your eyes, and then be baptized properly.

    Only once you accept the true laws of G-d can you be saved.

    Hey… I like my new religion, and declare myself the head of the new Jewish-Baptists.

    Ken… you’ll love it. You get to baptize yourself every week before the holy Sabbath!

  128. Mark–
    I’m not sure which “acts of censorship” you are referring to. Israel isn’t the United States, and the laws are not the same. To hold Israel up to the same standard as the US when it has different laws is absurd.

    Ken–
    Basic human rights are universal… given by GOD, not by government. Those rights include freedom of speech and freedom of religion.

    Please don’t demean your knowledge of human rights or that of Israel by repeating the false claim that human rights just don’t apply the same in Israel. Censorship laws aimed at believers in Yeshuah are violations of human rights whether in Israel or Russia or Nazi Germany. Don’t makeover Israel like moslem or Nazi dictatorships.

    • Come on Ken, read what I wrote. You said that there were acts of censorship in Israel, and I said that a) I didn’t know of any – if you do, please enlighten me; b) if you are referring to a particular law in Israel, then you need to recognize that the laws in Israel are different than those in the US, and that you can’t apply US standards to Israel, and c) please enumerate which “Basic human right” is being denied to any religious group in Israel.

      • The illegal censorship plaguing Israel is by private Israelis, not by the gov’t, which only refuses to protect Christian Jews in some backward parts of Israel. In fairness I agree that most Israelis support freedom of religion and free speech.

        Yes, there is private unlawful censorship. It has been well documented numerous times.

        US laws and Israeli laws should both conform to universal, God-given human rights to propagate ones faith. That is the shame of some elements in Israel… and even of some in the USA.

  129. Mark–
    I support the Israeli law which clearly states that everyone has the right to worship as they[sic] please[s], and that people have the right to speak freely about their religion, even in the public streets.

    Ken–
    Good for you, Mark. That is wonderful. Ofcourse there are some in Israel who would restrict the freedoms of Jewish beleivers in Christ by violent invasions of our homes and churches, by stalking which would be unlawful if directed at moslems or secular Jews, and by physical beatings. I believe you also must join our demand for the government to punish such acts of religious persecution in Israel. Good for you, friend.

    Mark–
    I also support the Israeli law which allows prosyletyzing as long as there are no “inducements” for the individual to convert. It was this law that allowed Morris Cerullo, for example, to mail thousands of copies of his booklet to homes all over Israel. However, to offer inducements that are thinly disguised as “soup kitchens” or “clothing centers” is, in my not so humble opinion, illegal based on the law, and should be closed down. They, however, remain open and undesturbed by the government.

    Ken–
    I need more information. Do the soup kitchens offer food and shelter etc. in exchange for conversion? Or do they freely provide resources to both Christians and non-Christians? If the latter is true, and I believe that to be the case, then there is no inducement.

    They may preach at the recipients when they eat, but so what? That is their right on private property. There is no law against preaching in our own soup kitchens and coffee shops. Maybe Eddie has more to add. Please see his website.

    • “I believe you also must join our demand for the government to punish such acts of religious persecution in Isael.”
      I most certainly do. Acts of religious persecution don’t belong anywhere, but especially in Israel.

      ” I need more information. Do the soup kitchens offer food and shelter etc. in exchange for conversion? Or do they freely provide resources to both Christians and non-Christians? If the latter is true, and I believe that to be the case, then there is no inducement.”

      They provide the atmosphere where the lonely, the impoverised and the most vulnerable will be most inclined to hear the distorted message of someone who is dressing up Christianity to look Jewish. In this way they are offering an inducement.

      • Good post, Mark.

        Joseph,

        Mark raises an interesting point. Can you find a news article or statement by anti-missionaries to continue this on a new thread? It will become a hot topic in the future as mission work expands in Israel.

        Ken–
        ” I need more information. Do the soup kitchens offer food and shelter etc. in exchange for conversion? Or do they freely provide resources to both Christians and non-Christians? If the latter is true, and I believe that to be the case, then there is no inducement.”

        Mark–
        They provide the atmosphere where the lonely, the impoverised and the most vulnerable will be most inclined to hear the distorted message of someone who is dressing up Christianity to look Jewish. In this way they are offering an inducement.

        Ken–

        There is no law against providing an atmosphere where the lonely, the improverished, and the most vulnerable will be inclined to hear anything.

        Is feeding the hungry a crime? No. Is being kind and loving a crime? No. Is preaching a crime? No. So why do you suppose doing all three constitutes crime in Israel?

        Here is the real story. You are just angry that we are loving immigrants, the poor and the homeless while mainstream Jewish charities ignore them. And these expressions of love, offered without condition, opens their hearts to us. They willingly listen when we talk of the peace and forgiveness in Yeshua. And some always accept Him as their Messiah. That is the real issue, not inducement. Messiah is the real issue.

      • “Is feeding the hungry a crime? No. Is being kind and loving a crime? No. Is preaching a crime? No. So why do you suppose doing all three constitutes crime in Israel?”

        It doesn’t constitute “crime in Israel”, it should because the motive isn’t pure.

        Here is the real story. You are just angry that we are loving immigrants, the poor and the homeless while mainstream Jewish charities ignore them. And these expressions of love, offered without condition, opens their hearts to us. They willingly listen when we talk of the peace and forgiveness in Yeshua. And some always accept Him as their Messiah. That is the real issue, not inducement. Messiah is the real issue.”

        Yes, I’ve seen the “love”, as soon as they indicate that the do not want to accept Christianity, or decide to renounce Christianity because they were duped into believing that it was Jewish, they are no longer welcome for food, clothing or evne “friendly” conversation. If they try and tell others what they have learned, they are asked to leave or are forcibly evicted. “Expressions of love, offered without condition” my foot! These groups are only there for conversion. As far as “mainstream Jewish charities”, they don’t ignore them, they are dealing with millions, not just a few thousand specifically targeted for their vulnerability, as your co-religionists do.

  130. Mark–
    Baloney!!! I was in a hotel in California during a Hebrew-Christian conference, and on Friday night out came the long black coats, black hats and women wearing head coverings. If I didn’t know any better, I would have thought that I was in Brooklyn. These people didn’t dress tyhat way the entire week. It was like Halloween! That’s simply fraud!

    Ken–
    They looked like Jews wearing their clothes! Did you follow them around the rest of the week to see what they wear? Did they tell you they flew in from Brooklyn to attend a Hebrew Christian confernce? If no, so what?

    Some people dress up for Sunday worship. Ever hear the phrase “Sunday best” or “Sunday go-to-meetin’ clothes”? Does dressing up make them hypocrites? No, because they claim only to be Jews, not to be ultras or Chabads. They are exactly what they appear to be. If you ask them Who the beleive is the Messiah, they will freely tell you.

    I personally have some discomfort with Christian Jews who do not call themselves Christians, because they believe that is a term used only for gentiles. While I may disagree, I recognize the theological viewpoint as valid. It is not hypocritical or deceptive, and they are my brothers and sisters in God.

    Mark quoting Ken–
    “They speak Hebrew or NYC English because they live there!”

    Mark–
    So do Israeli Ba’hai’s, but they’re not Jewish either.

    Ken– Some may or may not consider them to be Jews. Ditto for Jewish persons who are New Age Wiccan or Hindus etc. I consider them to be both Jewish by nationality and an extra-Biblical faith by religious choice. I can see your point about us Christians. Sorry I cannot buy into it.

    Mark quoting Ken–
    “They honor OT holy days because they want to honor God by these days. ”

    Mark–
    Do they also check for shatnez?

    I don’t know. Does it hurt when you stop? :-)

    • “Does dressing up make them hypocrites? No, because they claim only to be Jews, not to be ultras or Chabads.”

      Yet that is exactly the garb that they chose, because it identifiably Jewish. Wearing a suit wouldn’t say “Jewish”, but a long black coat and a black hat ala Chabad would. What hypocrites – it wasn’t even Halloween!

      “Ditto for Jewish persons who are New Age Wiccan or Hindus etc. I consider them to be both Jewish by nationality and an extra-Biblical faith by religious choice.”

      OK Ken, define what “Jewish by nationality” is, please, and BTW, you still didn’t answer my other question: Do you support full disclosure, which many of your co-religionists don’t?”

      • >>> OK Ken, define what “Jewish by nationality” is, please

        Born to a Jewish parent (either IMO) regardless of religion

        >>> you still didn’t answer my other question: Do you support full disclosure, which many of your co-religionists don’t?”

        I am at a loss to answer, because you are playing word games with me. For you full disclosure means denouncing one’s Jewishness upon conversion to Christianity. For you a person born of Jewish parents who believes Yeshuah is Messiah cannot be both Christian and Jewish. For you there can be no full disclosure.

        Free bonus material…

        So what’s a nice Jewish boy to do when he confronts Jews for Jesus and other MJs? Censorship and violence are sinful and evil. The only fair and humane response to our conversionary free speech is more free speech. I respect those anti-missionary Jews, Moslems, and Hindus who respect our free speech and conversionary rights and who respond only with their own free speech. May God open the eyes of us all. Blessings…

      • >>> OK Ken, define what “Jewish by nationality” is, please.

        Ken – Born to a Jewish parent (either IMO) regardless of religion”

        But Ken, what made the parent(s) Jewish? It’s not the land that they live in or the language that they speak. There is only one thing that binds them to Judaism, and that’s not eating bagels on Sunday morning. What is it? Can you be a Moslem-Christian? If not, why not?

        While you may have an opinion, I choose to go by G-d’s opinion on the question.

        “Do you support full disclosure, which many of your co-religionists don’t?”

        Ken – “I am at a loss to answer, because you are playing word games with me. For you full disclosure means denouncing one’s Jewishness upon conversion to Christianity. For you a person born of Jewish parents who believes Yeshuah is Messiah cannot be both Christian and Jewish. For you there can be no full disclosure.”

        My sincere apologies. The one thing that you may learn from my posts is that I never “play word games.” I try to make my questions as straight forward as possible. Obviously, I failed in this case. What I was asking in the original post, and follow up was – Many of your co-religionists warn people who have just become Christian (who were formerly Jewish) not to talk to me. Do you agree or disagree that a person should be able to hear from both sides in order to make an informed decision? You seem to allude to an answer in your “free bonus material”, but I would appreciate a straight answer.

        You didn’t answer me, BTW, “Does it hurt when you stop doing what G-d commanded you to do?”

    • “Mark–
      Do they also check for shatnez?

      I don’t know. Does it hurt when you stop? ”

      I appreciate the humor, however, you tell me. Does it hurt when you stop doing what G-d commanded you to do?

  131. Mark asks–
    But Ken, what made the parent(s) Jewish? It’s not the land that they live in or the language that they speak. There is only one thing that binds them to Judaism, and that’s not eating bagels on Sunday morning. What is it?

    Ken–
    ‘Binds them to Judaism’ is different from ‘makes them Jews’. The former is a religion (Judaism) and the latter is ancestry or ethnicity.

    Mark–
    Can you be a Moslem-Christian? If not, why not?

    No, because these are not nationalities; they are mutually exclusive faiths. One, however, can be both Arab and Christian or both Northern European and Christian (as is true of my wife and me.) Likewise one can be both Jewish by birth and Christian by faith.

    I believe Jews for Jesus and other MJs are both Jews by ethnicity and Jewish by religion too, because Christianity is the fulfillment of Old Testament Judaism, not a new religion. I am privileged to be a part of your ancestors’ faith.

    Ponder with me this thought. Even if I were to agree that Judaism and Christianity were mutually exclusive faiths, I would still maintain that a Jew by natural birth can be a Christian by second birth at the same time. I understand your view and you understand mine. We are communicating.

    Mark–
    While you may have an opinion, I choose to go by G-d’s opinion on the question.

    Ken–
    Great! I like it when someone is firm in his convictions and also appeals to God’s Word. Wish more people did. How does the Bible function as an authority for your faith, Mark?

    Mark–
    Do you agree or disagree that a person should be able to hear from both sides in order to make an informed decision?

    Absolutely yes. I would not censor you or advise new Christians to avoid you. I would get them grounded in the Bible and ancient history, especially the prophecies. I’d let them read a variety of material if they are interested and meet people like you.

    You seem like a nice person. I don’t think you would emotionally or physically harm a new convert to Christianity or insult him or behave rudely toward him. If you did, that would be different, but I enjoy talkiing online with you. I believe you’d be equally pleasant in person. I myself would like to be there when you try to reconvert a new Christian, so he can get both sides. This seems enjoyable to me.

    >>> You seem to allude to an answer in your “free bonus material”, but I would appreciate a straight answer.

    Ken–
    Two different topics. The ‘bonus material’ was my addition of something new to our thread, namely a plea for your kindness and tolerance to us Christians and especially to Jews by birth who continue to call themselves Jews (jewish by faith in the case of those who sincerely believe they are the true legacy of Abrahamic faith after Christ came). I realize you consider this dishonest, but it would be equally dishonest for them to deny what they believe about their own new faith and identity. I see this as a sincere and reasonable difference of opinion, not dishonesty as some have accused.

    I suggest the correct and tolerant response is not censorship or legal restrictions, but continued discussion and debate. Maybe there won’t be resolution, but there will be an airing of opinions for the undecided to consider. That seems fair.

    Mark–
    >>> You didn’t answer me, BTW, “Does it hurt when you stop doing what G-d commanded you to do?”

    I will answer just as soon as I figure out how I should answer “When did you stop beating your wife, Ken?” or “Have you quit using illegal drugs yet?” :-)

    Ouch! These woolen and cotton blend suits itch.

  132. Pingback: The Maccabeats aide and abet “x-tian missionaries.” — Gather the Jews

  133. JOE
    THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUTH…ONE FATHER GOD..ONE MESSIAH-JESUS CHRIST-YESHUA REAL MESSIAH & ONE HOLY SPIRIT OF TRUTH

    HOW’S YOUR MESSIAH LATELY ??

    IF WE ARE WRONG-YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOOSE
    BUT IF WE ARE RIGHT YOU HAVE ETERNITY IN HEAVEN WITH ABBA FATHER GOD & REAL MESSIAH …EVERYTHING TO LOOSE
    THINK ABOUT THAT

    MAN-MADE DOCTRINES ARE NOT GOD-MADE DOCTRINES
    DO NOT BE DECEIVED !

    JESUS FULFILLED TORAH…HE IS TORAH…
    HE IS SHABBAT REST- HE IS SHABBAT
    HE IS THE MATZAH- HOLES-PIERCED HANDS-FEET- STRIPES-LASHES ACROSS HIS BACK- UNLEAVEN-WITHOUT SIN

    HE IS ‘ISAAC’ ON ABBA FATHER GOD’S ALTAR OF LOVE- ATONING FOR YOUR SINS – FOR HE HAD NO SIN OF HIS OWN-COMPLETE FAITH-TRUST-OBEDIENCE TO ABBA FATHER GOD -EVEN UNTIL HIS OWN DEATH
    HE IS ‘JOSEPH’- SAVING HIS PEOPLE FROM THEIR SIN-DEATH-SATAN-
    LIFE SENTENCE OF HELL ON EARTH & HELL ETERNAL

    HE IS MOSES-JOSHUA -LEADING HIS PEOPLE OUR OF SIN-EGYPT-BABYLON TO THE NEW JERUSALEM-PROMISED LAND
    HE IS LORD OF LORDS- KING OF KINGS- HIGH PRIEST IN THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEC

    EVEN KING DAVID SAW JESUS COMING- IN PSALMS 110:1
    THE LORD SAID UNTO MY Lord..SIT THOUGH AT MY RIGHT HAND…
    ABBA FATHER GOD SAID UNTO JESUS-CHRIST-YESHUA …
    CONNECT THE DOTS ….BROTHER…OPEN YOUR EYES-EARS -HEART TO
    ABBA FATHER’S TRUTH – JESUS-YESHUA IS ABBA’S GREAT EXCHANGE PLAN – TO REDEEM & RESTORE YOU BACK TO HIMSELF -THROUGH HIMSELF-
    HIS DNA-SON-MESSIAH-WORD MADE FLESH-TRUTH

    JOE…YOU MISS THE BLESSING-MESSIAH-ETERNAL LIFE-SALVATION.. &
    SETTLE FOR THE CURSE-TO REMAIN IN DARKNESS-IGNORANCE-DECEIVED …

    COME HOME OUT OF THE HOG PEN-SATAN’S LIES…GET BORN AGAIN & WATER BAPTISED- ONLY THEN ABBA FATHER WILL SEND YOU HIS HOLY SPIRIT OF TRUTH -TO TEACH YOU GOD’S TRUTH…

    ALL MEN WILL BE TAUGHT BY GOD…NOT A RABBI WHO DOESN’T HAVE ABBA FATHER GOD’S HOLY SPIRIT OR KNOW REAL MESSIAH…
    NO SIN CAN ENTER THE PRESENCE OF ABBA FATHER GOD- WE ALL-JEW-ARAB-GENTILE MUST BE WASHED BY THE BLOOD OF THE PESACH LAMB OF GOD…FOR ALL HAVE SINNED FALLEN SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD
    IT SI WRITTEN

    YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN -WATER BAPTISED TO SEE OR ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD-HEAVEN…IT IS WRITTEN
    YOU MUST HAVE ABBA’S HOLY SPIRIT OF TRUTH..OR YOU HAVE NOT TRUTH
    HALF-TRUTHS ARE LIES

    HE WHOM THE SON SETS FREE IS FREE INDEED..SON OF GOD-
    ONLY BEGOTTEN SON …HUMBLE YOURSELF-REPENT OF YOUR SINS & COME TASTE & SEE THAT THE LORD IS GOOD…COME TO JESUS -YESHUA TODAY…. ASK HIM TO SHOW YOU TRUTH –
    THEN OPEN YOUR EYES-EARS-HEART ..
    YOU ARE IN FOR A GLORIOUS SURPRIZE !!!
    I PRAY IN LORD & KING JESUS CHRIST HOLY NAME

    SHALOM !

  134. I have several questions, since I am new to this debate. Please correct me if I am wrong. There is something called Rabbinic law or something like that. It dictates who is Jewish and who is not Jewish. Can you give me a point of reference as to where I would find this and where I would find information about when someone stops being Jewish? Would this be in the Torah or some other document of set of documents? I find this debate to be interesting. I apologize if I have used any incorrect terms or phrases.

    Thanks

    Russ

    • Well, even if you were an atheist Jew, you are still Jewish. You can believe whatever you want to believe as long as you do not believe that Jesus was and is a Messiah.
      TO ALL JEWISH UNBELIEVERS, I AM SETTING A WAGER FOR US ALL. I BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS THE MESSIAH. THAT HE ATONED ME FROM ALL OF MY SINS. NOW, IF HE IS NOT THE MESSIAH AND IF THE TRUE AND THE REAL MESSIAH COMES REVEALING HIMSELF, YOU ALL UNBELIEVING JEWS WIN. ASSUMING HE IS NOT REALLY THE ONE, BUT I BELIEVE IN HIM AND YET BECAUSE OF HIM I WAS CHANGED FROM ALL OF MY BAD AND EVIL CHARACTERS, TURNING MY OTHER CHEEK, LOVING G-D MORE THAN EVER, BECAME MORE PATIENT, FORBEARING, UNDERSTANDING, AND POSITIVE, DO YOU THINK I STILL LOSE? NOPE! BUT IF HE IS INDEED THE ONE AND THAT ALL THOSE CHANGES HAPPENED TO ME BECAUSE OF HIM, THEN WHO DO YOU THINK LOSE? WHAT CAN WE DO NOW IS TO PRAY FOR HIS COMING WITH ALL OUR HEART, WHOEVER HE IS, UNWAVERINGLY AWAITING. LET US STOP ASKING THE JEWS TO BELIEVE WHAT WE BELIEVE, HE HIMSELF DID NOT FORCE THEM TO BELIEVE IN HIM, OTHERWISE, HE SENT A MULTITUDE OF ANGELS IN ~30 AD CONVINCING THEM THAT HE WAS INDEED THE ONE. YET THEIR UNBELIEF AND REJECTION JUST FULFILL THE PROPHECY OF THE SUFFERING SERVANT IN ISAIAH 53. LET THEIR UNBELIEF AND REJECTION CONTINUE UNTIL THE WORDS OF ZECHARIAH BE FULFILLED IN THEIR MIDST. THAT THEY WOULD CRY OUT TO HIM, TO THE ONE THEY HAVE PIERCED, THE TIME WHEN THEY CRY OUT OF SHAME AND REMORSE, WHY ALL THOSE 2 DAYS (2000 YEARS), THEY HAVE DENIED AND REJECTED HM. IT IS JUST 2 DAYS FOR G-D… REMEMBER. HE COULD NOT OBTAIN THEM. HE LOVES THEM. WERE IT NOT FOR THEIR UNBELIEF, COUNTLESS LIVES WOULD HAVE NOT HEARD THE GOSPEL BECAUSE HE WILL SOON COME AS MESSIAH BEN DAVID 2000 YEARS BEFORE. BUT LET THE LIVES OF JOSEPH BEN JACOB AND HIS LIFE BE A SIMILARITY. BOTH JUDAS/JUDAH SOLD THEM FOR 30/20 PIECES OF SILVER, RESPECTIVELY. BOTH WERE HATED BY THEIR OWN BROTHERS AND OBTAINED TRIALS.BOTH HAVE TWO CRIMINALS IN THEIR “PUNISHMENTS”. BUT ONLY ONE OF THOSE CRIMINALS RESPECTED THEM. BOTH WILL SAVE THEIR BRETHREN FROM HUNGER (FOR JESUS IT IS THE HUNGER FOR GOD’S WORD, SET INTO “DROUGHT” 400 YEARS BEFORE HIS COMING).

      • So let me get this straight. You can believe anything you want, or nothing at all, and still be Jewish. But if you believe that Jesus is the Messiah, you are not Jewish anymore? So you can be Jewish and atheist, or Jewish and Hindu, but not Jewish and believe in Jesus as Messiah, even though, please correct me if I am wrong, that Messiah is a Jewish concept in its origin. I am having a hard time understanding the logic. Can you give a little more guidance?

  135. That’s absurd. If you have accepted another faith system, and another god, you have voluntarily removed yourself from Judaism. Just as you can’t call yourself a Christian if you believe in and accept Mohammed, you can’t call yourself a Jew if you believe in and accept Jesus. No, you can’t be a Hindu and a Jew, or a Hindu and a Christian; you can’t be an athiest and a Jew or a Christian; and agnostic, perhaps, but a believer in Mohammed and a Christian or a Jew, or a Jew and a believer in Jesus, simply is a contradiction in terms.

    • Hey Mark,
      Here’s a short list of Jews who disagree with you:

      Leonard Cohen, Lama Surya Das, Robert Downey, Jr., Doug Fieger, Norman Fischer, Allen Ginsberg, Bernard Tetsugen Glassman, Jake Gyllenhaal, Goldie Hawn, Kate Hudson, Jack Kornfield, Jeremy Piven, Steven Seagal, Garry Shandling and Adam Yauch (aka: MCA)

      They’re all Jewish Buddhists, Mark.
      Whatcha think?

    • Mark.

      Sometimes Jews doubt if God is really there.

      Do they stop being Jewish when they become convinced that God is not there, and become Jewish again when they realise he is?

      Or even, did some Jews stop being Jews when they worshipped the golden calf?

    • “You can’t be an atheist and a Jew”

      You have a Jewish man who is really Orthodox, whose Jewish mother believes in God too.

      The mother suffers a terrible trauma, blames God, then stops believing in God entirely.

      She is now an atheist.

      Is she still Jewish?

      Is the son still Jewish?

        • ” Your question is absurd.”

          Why? You clearly said “you can’t be an atheist and a Jew”. I’m showing you a situation where you could be.

  136. Mark Powers,

    Hi Mark, please help me understand something that seems absurd to me, actually it’s an oxymoron. How can Yeshua (a Jew) not be part of Judaism? What did He teach that goes against Judaism (please keep in mind that the Judaism of the first century was somewhat different than today. Yeshua was a Jew and a known Rabbi of His day. We cannot blame Him for what others (namely Christianity) have taught in His name.

  137. I see all of this argument, and I appreciate the responses, but no one has addressed my original post. I am trying to learn something. How do we determine if someone is Jewish or not? I have heard of something called Rabbinic law. I am not sure if this is something that actually exists or not. If it does, would this dictate if someone is Jewish or not? I have also heard that Judaism can be defined two ways, Religious and ethnic. I have met people who claim to be atheist Jews. Are they correct or not? I am part American Indian, but do not have enough blood to officially be part of a tribe, so I am considered not to be Indian in those terms. So, once again, how do you determine if someone is Jewish?

    • Traditional Jewish law, which is based upon the Torah (5 Books of Moses) indicates that if your mother was Jewish, then you are Jewish. One may also convert to Judaism in a manner prescribed by Jewish law, and be considered Jewish as well. Hope that answers your question.

  138. Russ,

    If you think about it Abraham the first Jew was actually born a Gentile. He became a Jew because he obeyed G-d concerning what he had to do namely (circumcision). Another question why was Isaac, and Jacob/Israel Jewish? How was Moshe and the Hebrews in Egypt Jews? It’s pretty tricky, in the beginning all the first Jews were converts (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob). Now a days it might be a little different, but i don’t know enough on this subject to continue. But it is very interesting.

      • bubby,

        you said “Abraham was a Hebrew not the first Jew. Actually I will not give you the answer;instead research it. Hint: No Jews without Torah”

        Why do you down play us like we don’t know anything and you are so much Superior than us in the knowledge of Torah? I study the Torah ‘daily’, and I’m sure there are others in here who do the same (with the same Jewish sources, at least i know i do).

        So according to your logic the Torah is not eternal, correct? ;)
        Lets see here, according to G-d His Divine Torah is eternal! It preexisted Sinai, tho it was fully revealed at Sinai to Moshe.

        “I will multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and will give to your offspring all these lands. And in your offspring all the nations of the earth shall be blessed,
        Because Abraham hearkened to My voice, and kept My charge, My mitzvot, My statutes, and My Torots.” Gen.26:4,5

        The Midrash asserts that although they lived long before the Torah was given to us at Mount Sinai, our forefathers kept all the mitzvot (Divine commandments) that the Torah would command their descendants in the future. This idea is reiterated by Chazal in many other places. – (See e.g. Yoma 28b; Rashi to Bereshit (Genesis) 26:5; Rashi to Bereshit (Genesis) 32:5 — “Yaakov said, ‘I dwelt by Lavan, yet I kept all of the 613 Mitzvot'”)

        The patriarchs taught these mitzvot to their children, the twelve tribes. They, in turn, also kept all of the mitzvot of the Torah – (Tanna D’vei Eliyahu Ch. 6). And not only were our forefathers mindful of future biblical commands, they even heeded future rabbinic ordinances. – (Yoma 28b)

        HaShem revealed to our forefathers the mitzvot that he was going to give to the Jews at a later time. The forefathers, out of their profound love to do the will of HaShem, voluntarily accepted upon themselves to perform these mitzvot “ahead of schedule.” It is an accepted principle that even if one is not subject to a given commandment, it is nevertheless considered meritorious for him to observe that mitzvah. He is even rewarded for doing so. – (Rambam, Melachim 10:10)

        The Hebrew word for commands is mitzvot (plural). The word mitzvot means more than commands, it also carries the meaning of good deeds. In other words, when we obey the mitzvot we are performing the work of HaShem, which, by definition, is always a good deed.

  139. Fellow discussion participants,

    As I am not Jewish, and don’t speak Hebrew, would you mind defining some of these words for me? Not just the definition, but also the concept and the application? I also don’t know who some of the people are, such as Hashem. Can someone enlighten me?
    I would appreciate it.

    Russ

  140. Russ,

    HaShem means “the Name”! The ineffable Name of G-d, the Tetragrammaton YHWH (Hebrew: יהוה‎). Also sometimes translated in the English translations as L-rd/Lord.

    What other words do you need a definition for? I’m sure you can also look these words up, let me know what i can help you with or maybe someone else can help us out.

  141. Jesus is my BAR magnet, God the father is my Electric Field and the Holy Spirit is my Wave = ELECTROMAGNETIC WAVE (LIGHT). Light is THREE-IN-ONE. TRIUNITY IS ALSO POSSIBLE IN NATURE…BAR is son for ARAMAIC…

  142. I think you need to check your connection. You seem to be unplugged. ;-)
    Additionally, Bar is NOT son for Aramaic, and I do realize what you meant, but that’s not correct either.

  143. Just a play of words over there MARK (WORKS/TIME)… P = W/t (LOL)!
    “BAR IS NOT SON FOR ARAMAIC”??? THEN, WHAT IS? CHECK YOUR BAR MITZVAH (SON of COMMANDMENT) UNCLE…
    Elecric+magnetic WAVE = Electromagnetic Wave = Light. I can count three physical phenomena, at least (magnetism, electricity and energy/wave). Is it not obvious that they are ECHAD (Unified One)? See more echad (multiple unity) here:
    1. Two shall become echad (one) flesh, Gen.2:24
    2. One (echad) people, Gen.11:6, 34:16,22
    3. God is one (echad), Deut. 6:4
    4. One (echad) heart, 2 Chron 30:12; Jer 32:39
    5. Two objects (sticks) becoming one (echad), Ezek. 37:17
    6. Assembly as one (echad), Ezra. 2:64
    WHY NOT YACHID?
    Once thought to be separate fields but James Clerk Maxwell unified them in his Electromagnetic Theory. I am reading my subject and come to this conclusion.
    What is queer is that a magnetic field could manifest in a stuff-like material as a BAR magnet. You can have a bar magnet when all of the (ferromagnetic) material’s magnetic domains are set to be aligned well in a linear pattern towards a single direction (sounds like, the Messiah would not come unless we are all aligned to righteousness). Yet, unlike magnetic fields, electric fields have no known material manifestation unless connected to an electric source, that is, you cannot have a permanent electric field that which would operate independently from such a source. But you can have a permanent magnet (like my BAR MAGNET). Static electricity, most of the time, does not linger much, lightning is one such great example. Before Hans Christian Oersted, Michael Faraday and James Clerk Maxwell, physicists thought that Electricity and Magnetism were separate and independent forces of nature.
    I hope you will realize Sir that such things are really possible even in NATURE. A scientist is an OPEN MINDED person and not as bigoted as some of us here. More of this many-in-one phenomena? Energy and mass (energy-mass equivalence, E = mc^2, Special Relativity Theory). Space and time (General Relativity Theory, Dr. A.E.). We cannot limit G-d. He might be existing in a more than four-dimensional world.
    Well, I know, as expected you will disclaim this simple analogy and make things more complicated and circumnavigate. Occam’s Razor: “Pluralitas non est ponenda sine neccesitate”.

  144. All,

    We’re veering from the topic at hand. Everyone already knows what makes someone a Jew (having a Jewish mother or a legitimate–according to Judaism–conversion). But what is in great disagreement between the “messianic” Christians versus the rest of mankind is “what is Judaism”.

    According to “messianic” Christians, Judaism is “the religion derived from Jesus”; however, that is the Websters definition of Christianity, not Judaism.

    Websters defines Judaism as ” a religion developed among the ancient Hebrews and characterized by belief in one transcendent God who has revealed himself to Abraham, Moses, and the Hebrew prophets and by a religious life in accordance with Scriptures and rabbinic traditions”. Judaism has never equated Jesus or the Christian trinity with the one transcendent G-d Who revealed Himself in the Jewish Bible, and the Bible itself doesn’t mention Jesus at all, and the Rabbinic tradition is a systematic repudiation of every of every tenet of Christian theology.

    So let’s get back to the real dispute: is worshiping a trinitarian godhood panoply, a mortal cadaver, an innocent sacrifice to appease a cruel bloodthirsty god, is all of that in any way a fulfillment of the Jewish religion, and it’s Hebrew Bible that instructs Jews “the L-rd is one” and “G-d is not a man” and “each one dies for his own sins”?

    • Indeed, the L-RD is One, “VegasR”. Believing Jews and Messianics understand this and agree. When they encountered the textual oddity of the plural word Elohim, which is used thousands of times in Tanakh to refer to HaShem, even the Sages seemed well aware of the divine revelation of the unified G-d. This mysterious moniker has long been understood by the Sages, as evidenced particularly in the Zohar, to express the various faces of G-d.

      The Zohar utilizes five different expressions to refer to the principle of the Unified G-d, or Adonai Echad. They are the tlat rishin or “three heads”, the tlat ruhin or “three spirits”, the tlat havayot or “three forms of revelation”, the tlat shmehin or “three names” and the talta gvanin, or “three shades of interpretation”. These terms are understood as G-d’s “being”, just as some might use the terms g-dhead, “Unity” or even “Trinity” in English.

      The Zohar (pt.II) asks: “How can these three be One? Are they One only because we call them One? How they are One we can know only by the urging of the Ruach Ha Kodesh and then even with closed eyes.” The humility expressed here in approaching this mystery “with closed eyes”, or in humble faith, is something of which we would do well to take note.

      Not widely known by many Jews (or Christians, for that matter) is the fact that the word “trinity” doesn’t appear once in the Brit Chadasha. However, a concept such as “three in One” is a logical deduction, and the Zohar (pt.III) refers to the mystery of G-d’s self-revelation by the name razei de-Shlosha or the mystery of the number three. These three are like the “outer shell of the inner truth”, according to the Sages.

      “The three spirits are united in the One. The spirit located below is called “the Holy Spirit.” The middle spirit is the central pillar, called “spirit of wisdom and understanding”… The uppermost spirit is hidden in secrecy, and in it exist all holy spirits and all sources of light.” (Zohar, Genesis, p. 15)

      “YHWH, Adonai, and the Shekhinah, they are the Holy One, blessed be He, and the Shekhinah is located between two extremities: YHWH on its right side, and Adonai on its left side. And they are an illuminating vision. But without the Shekhinah the vision will be obscure. In one righteous, the Shekhinah, they are One.” (Tikunei haZohar, p. 66)

      Also in the Zohar, Rabbi Simeon ben Jochai commented on Deuteronomy 32:39: “See now that I, I am he, and Elohim is not with me.”

      He wrote, “Friends, here are some profound mysteries which I desire to reveal to you now that permission has been given to utter them. Who is it that says, ‘See now that I, I am He?’ This is the Cause which is above all those on high, that which is called the Cause of causes. It is above those other causes, since none of those causes does anything till it obtains permission from that which is above it, as we pointed out above in respect to the expression, ‘Let us make man.’ ‘Us’ certainly refers to two, of which one said to the other above it, ‘Let us make,’ nor did it do anything save with the permission and direction of the one above it, while the one above did nothing without consulting its colleague. But that which is called ‘the Cause above all causes,’ which has no superior or even equal, as it is written, ‘To whom shall ye liken me, that I should be equal?’ (referring to Isaiah 40:25), said, ‘See now that I, I am he, and Elohim is not with me,’ from whom he should take counsel, like that of which it is written, ‘and G-d said, Let us make man.'”

      And in The Propositions of the Zohar, he wrote, “. . . the exalted Shechinah comprehends the Three highest Sephiroth; of Him it is said, (Ps. lxii. 12), “G-d hath spoken once; twice have I heard this.” Once and twice means the Three exalted Sephiroth, of whom it is said: Once, once, and once; that is, Three united in One. This is the mystery.”

      Will you, VegasR, argue against the understandings of the Sages and even your own faith, as so many others have done?

  145. As previously posted:
    “Traditional Jewish law, which is based upon the Torah (5 Books of Moses) indicates that if your mother was Jewish, then you are Jewish. One may also convert to Judaism in a manner prescribed by Jewish law, and be considered Jewish as well. Hope that answers your question.”

  146. Mark, thank you. So if I understand this correctly, I a mother is Jewish, and her child becomes an atheist, or a muslim, or a christian, than they are still Jewish.

  147. Really? You’re kidding, right? As I said before, you can’t be a Muslim Christian – they are two seperate and distinct faith systems. You can’t be a Jewish Christain, Hebrew Christian or whatever else you wish to call it. Judaism and Christianity are two seperate and distinct faith systems.

    • Really? You’re kidding, right?

      Mark, are you saying that the idea, that a Jewish mother could lose her faith in God due to personal circumstances (or really, any circumstances) – is absurd? That such a scenario is some kind of hilarious joke I’ve made up, just to annoy you?

      Surely you have come across people who change their perspective on God throughout their lives – heck, you’re the person most ex-Messianic anti-missionaries credit for turning them back to Judaism! Penina Taylor is one example.

      What if, someone gave up believing in God. They would still be a Jew. They would also be an atheist. That’s not absurd or contrary, for me to even discuss this.

      • Joseph, if you insist on making sense, Mark is simply going to ignore you (as he has me). Please do try to be a bit less logical. Remember, this is Mark’s world. He makes the rules.

  148. This is the part that is not making sense. I am really confused. According to the earlier posts, you are either Jewish because your mother was Jewish, or you convert. This I understand. You can be Jewish by blood or by choice. But if you are Jewish by blood, and you convert to any other religion (not sure how this would apply to atheists and agnostics) then you stop being Jewish, even though it is by blood? This is where I am getting lost. And if you are no longer Jewish, is there some type of official determination that has to be made by a Rabbi or something like that? Any help for the confused would be appreciated.

  149. See if this helps. Just as you can opt into the system (convert), you can opt out of the system by accepting another faith. Is it possible to believe that the Messiah has not come yet at all, and at the same time believe that the messiah has come and is coming back? Is it possible to believe that G-d cannot take the form of a man, and at the same time believe that he did? these are two irreconsilable positions of two different faiths. Can you believe that there is a G-d and at the same time believe that G-d doesn’t exist? Is it possible to believe that G-d had no more prophets after Malachi, and at the same time believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet in the later days? Or are these also incompatible positions? When one accepts Mohammed as a prophet and the Koran as the further revelation of god, even if you were raised as a Catholic, do you still retain that faith and become a Catholic Muslim. People here would like to pretend that this is possible with Judaism and Christianity. It isn’t. Yes, I do know the difference between Jewishness and Judaism. The problem is, even if you are not a practicing Jew, you still haven’t made an act of comission. That’s the problem that many people here don’t get, or just choose to ignore.

    • Mark asks, “Is it possible to believe that the Messiah has not come yet at all, and at the same time believe that the messiah has come and is coming back?”

      But a better question would be; Is it possible to believe that the Messiah has not come yet at all – and be wrong?

      Mark asks, “Is it possible to believe that G-d cannot take the form of a man, and at the same time believe that he did?”

      But a better question would be: Is it possible to believe that G-d cannot take the form of a man and, therefore, be unable to accept the fact that He can appear in any form He desires – and did so numerous times in Tanakh?

    • “The problem is, even if you are not a practicing Jew, …..”

      Ok, we are getting somewhere. So you admit that one can be a Jew and not practice Judaism, right? Therefore you have to also admit that being Jewish is not a matter of religion, do you?

  150. So If I am to understand this correctly, a choice over-rides blood. Now I know that not all people have accepted this position, as the horrors of the 1930s and 1940s have shown. I do have one more question. You stated in an earlier post that the Torah dictates who is Jewish, so would the Torah also state how you stop being Jewish. Sorry If I am slow to pick this up, but I am still having a hard time getting my head around this. Maybe because I am not Jewish. My mother in part Irish, my father part Swedish. No matter what I do, I will always be part Irish and part Swedish. But just because my mother is a Christian, does not make me a Christian. Sorry if I am belaboring the point, but I live in an area where there are not a whole lot of Jewish people, so I really don’t have anyone to ask these questions to.

  151. It also seems to me, that the big difference here is whether or not you believe that the Christian guy Jesus was what they call the Messiah. (I think that is the correct phrase) If you don’t you are still Jewish. If you do, you are not Jewish anymore. even if you follow all of the Jewish rules, (not phrasing it this way to offend anyone, just not sure of the right terminology.) I think that I have it now. Beyond that, I am not sure what difference there is between the Christianity and Judaism beyond the Jesus guy, except for the cultural things, and Saturday church vs. Sunday Church. Although I don’t remember ever seeing any Jewish people inviting someone to church or knocking on doors.

    • You got it, Russ. You can be Jewish, believing just about any idea out there, and remain a Jew – except, of course, for the aforementioned. The moment you believe that Yeshua was/is the Messiah of Israel, you’ve managed to cosmically cut yourself off completely from the Jewish People. And while folks like Mark will attempt to convince you that this understanding is derived from expert scholarship and a thorough grasp of the things of G-d, you’ll have a great deal of trouble finding evidence of that. It’s very obvious to many people that Jewish people that hate Yeshua, hate Him because they hate “Jesus”, and they hate “Jesus” because of the anti-Semitism, ignorance, and paganism that he seems to represent – thanks to the way he’s been tragically portrayed by the Catholic Church and Christianity, and because of the immeasurable mountain of horrendous history that those institutions have produced (and “directed” at the Jewish People) for centuries. They, honestly, can’t (and shouldn’t) be blamed for their reluctance to accept that their Messiah has already come.

      That’s the very, very short version. Dig around here on RPP for a few weeks and you’ll be able to find a lot of answers and plenty of evidence for what I’ve just told you.

    • Russ, short version is: The Tanakh is what is widely known as the “Old Testament”. It contains the Torah (the five books of Moses), the books of the Prophets, and the writings. You can look “Tanakh” up just about anywhere to learn a bit more if you like, but rest assured, if you’re like most people, you probably have a copy in your home already. :)

  152. So Russ, since you have boiled it down to “the Jesus guy.” So since Moslems also believe in “the Jesus guy,” they must be Christian too. So do the Mormons, oh yeah, I forgot, they are Christians, sorry. As far as culture goes, there is no “Jewish culture.”

  153. Mark, I am trying to understand all of the comments, not just yours. As I understand it, Muslims believe in this guy Jesus, but not in the way that Christians do. Matter of fact, I have read some comments from a conservative Rabbi that at least gives credit to him for being a moral example. And I don’t know if using the Mormons as a comparison would be accurate, as many see them as a cult. And as for saying there is no Jewish Culture, how would you define culture? It is my understanding (limited as it might be) that there are some things that all Jews recognize (or at least all who are practicing) such as holidays, food, and so on, no matter if they are in Europe or Israel or the US. So would that be culture or religious observance?

    As for this Torah you talked about, is it in English? If so, where could I get one?

    Thanks a lot.

    Russ

    • Hi Russ,

      Sorry I haven’t replied, but between work & the holidays, its been very time consuming.
      You said: ” Muslims believe in this guy Jesus, but not in the way that Christians do.” So if i understand you, “unless you believe in this guy Jesus” the way that the Christians do, then you aren’t a Christian. The same for the Mormons ” I don’t know if using the Mormons as a comparison would be accurate, as many see them as a cult.” So you have to believe a particular way in order to be considered a Christian. Naturally, the Mormans may disagree with your analysis. However, why is the criteria different when it comes to being considered a Jew? We also say that you have to believe a particular way in ordered to be considered part of the Jewish people. Believeing that G-d had a physical son, and that the son is also god, born of a virgin, etc. is outside the parameters of Jewish belief. Anyone who believes that or that Mohammed was a prophet, or Joseph Smith, etc, is something else, but not a Jew.
      As far as “culture” is concerned, when it comes to food or dress, believe me, the dress of Jews from Yemen is vastly different from that of the jews in Russia. The only thing that they agree on is things like holidays – and that, my friend isn’t cultre, it’s religion.

      • Mark,
        I have been doing some research on the Mormon v. Christian point, and it does not appear that Mormons have the same beliefs as Christians. I think where we are not connecting is this: I have been told that there are two ways to be Jewish, one by birth, and the other by conversion. I have also been told that there are written rules on this, I don’t remember where, it might have been something like torah or talmud. So if there are rules about how somebody is a Jew, are there rules somewhere about how they stop being a Jew? I have been told there are a great many Jewish laws in some books, so I am wondering about where these other rule is found. Perhaps I am overly complicating this due to my legal background, but I have never studied Jewish law, and I understand it does exist.

  154. I appreciate the insights. I also appreciate the fact that the conversation on this website has generally been civil. Which, given the nature of the content, is amazing. As to one of the earlier posts about the Jews hating Yashua (which I am assuming is Jesus), I don’t know if that is true. Even Mark, to the best of my knowledge, has not said a word against him. Perhaps what is really troublesome is what he represents. While I am by no mean an expert on the Jewish faith or people, I do know something about history. And the Jewish people have been the most mistreated people in history, bar none. And a great deal of that misery has been Caused in the name of the Christian God. I have, over the years, worked with a great many Christians, and there is something that I find interesting among them. It seems that as every years goes by, there are more and more Christians who develop a love and respect for Judaism, Israel, and the Jewish people. The conversion issue is there, yes, but they would try to convert anyone, Jewish or not. Even me. And even if you remove the Conversion issue, theses Christian people are more ardent in their support of Israel than the Jewish people I have known. It appears to be a complete 180 degree turn. I must admit, I have been to a Jewish Church with a friend of mine once on Rosh Shoshanna eve (I think that is what is was called.) It was a church that was only open on Holidays as there were not very many people to support it. I must admit that people looked at me like I was a monkey or something, because I must have appeared to be really out of place. My friend has a ritual before going to Church, he goes to a Chinese Restaurant and gets Pork Fried Rice and Shrimp (He had to explain to me why he always laughs when he talks about it) But getting back to the point, I really appreciate the info and the discourse from everybody. It never hurts to be informed of different points of view.

    • You know Russ, it’s not even the “convert thing” that’s the problem. It’s the manner of the “convert thing.” When you take another faith system and dress it up to look Jewish so that your ability to use the “convert thing” is enhanced, that’s plain fraud, and that’s my main objection. The Mormon who comes to my door with the little name plate that says “I’m Elder So-and-so of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints” is at least honest and up front with who they are and what they want. Those who claim that they love Israel – the Jews, what ever, and use it a s tool to convert us are the lowest of the low.

      • Whoa! Whoa! There! That Mormon missionary is NOT telling you a thing of honesty at all! If he were a true elder, then his word to lead fellow Mormons into truth about the utterly false religion they’ve been duped into would be evident. But, he is a slave to those true movers and shakers of the pagan religion of Momonism.

        So too are those who follow Judaim. Rather than have any capacity to lead fellow Judaism members into the truth about their pagan religion – yes, it IS pagan, for it claims that its Rabbis have power to change at will the Torah, and even Elohim cannot refute them – they are utterly forbidden to so lead into truth anyone.

        Nation Y’srael is NOT the Israel that now occupies the covenant land that is deeded to Avraham by His Creator. These squatters may have Avrahams’ blood in their veins, but his Salvation is not in their heart, as clearly defined by many pro-Judaism posters here. You will discover that true descendants of Father Avraham all have his reborn spirit, and his new birth into the Ha Massiach Who is Elohim, and no other, exactly as He told His interrogators, who then attempted to destroy Him for His simple truth about His being Deity – THE Deity.

        Avraham knew Y’suah, personally. You Judaists have no clue, as you obey the adulterated doctrines of humans – your Rabbis’ words, and spurn the natural and unadulterated record of the Torah. Instead of obeying the Torah, you read a few words in it, then immediately refer to what a mere human individual of group has commented about that few words, and always mislead the reader into a mythical dissertation of utter nonsense.

        It’s no wonder the nation of Islam despises you. It can easily see how perverse you handle what you claim to be the Living Word of Creator Elohim! While Islam is a pagan religion in its own right, as all humans go, it can look on your pagan worship and easily tell the truth about you. So too, the pagan Church of Rome, as it in ancient times undertook to destroy you, and your entire mythical religion, and its religious writings.

        If you look into any false religion, as a non-practitioner, it’s easy to see where fallacies exist – they’re human and all too subjective to discernment by outsiders.

        For those here who boldly proclaim they are occupying the covenant land of Y’srael, but practicing the heathen Judaism forbidden by Hebrew Scripture, and actively subduing all who would dare to raise the issue of their lies to fellow occupiers to hopefully convert some to Truth-seekers, you are to be counted the least in Heaven, for your evil self-serving deceptions, and hatred of Truth. Y’suah said that, BTW.

        This blog is most interesting to me, as it draws together both Truth-seeker, and Truth denier, in confrontation, and occasional meaningful dialogue. If those who want to lump together any who oppose their views, just lump me into that group where Y’suah and His Supreme Truth are found, and nowhere else. His Truth stands, and all else fails. BTW, for serious students of facts, search for “Mark Biltz – Eclipses” on YouTube. There is a full 47 minute video on the Hebrew Scripture calendar, and the NASA Eclipse chart that clearly defines awesome events on Planet Earth, as it aligns with Solar System members and Creator’s Time Tables. I guarantee you will NOT go away with the same mind as you have now!

  155. Mark, I want to clarify something. You stated I boiled everything down to the Jesus guy. That is not accurate. That seems to be the biggest point of contention on this board. I just happened to stumble onto this board, and after reading some of the posts, became curious. I appreciate all of the interactions. I am trying to understand all of the points of view. Have a great day.

  156. I am a Gentile and a Christian, and in my experience all my Messianic friends are ethnically Jews by blood (both full and half). Most were raised as orthodox or reformed, and came to a conversion for themselves, but found that they could not practice what they thought was right in a Church, because of its theology, traditions, and the Church’s history of anti-semitism. Also, their whole worldview is Jewish and NOT ultra-hellenistic like a lot of Christian theology/ideologies are. I do not deny that there are Christian groups out there under the guise of Messianic Judaism, BUT there are also those who are REALLY Jews who want to practice what they grew up in Orthodox/Reformed Judaism (since it is their true identity and worldview), but have accepted a fulfillment in Yeshua according to their worldview and not the Christian/more Hellenistic view. The first “Christians” as mentioned above were mostly still practicing Jews who went to synagogues on Shabbat, but meet together to discuss Yeshua on Sundays (according to the book of Acts). Their first discussions were discussing whether or not to let the Gentiles in on the action and/or how observant the goyim were expected to be. I find it ironic that we are discussing if Jews (actual full or half blooded Jews should be allowed to be who they are and have a space where they can discuss Yeshua with each other without the influence of Gentiles and in a context of the Jewish worldview.

    I’m just saying!

  157. You know, there is a very true saying: “You are what you believe”. This is very diferent from what the Tora tells to believe and what NT tells to believe. And the fact is that the jews are jews only if they believe what G-d told them to (in the OLD Testament). The others (blood conection) are israelis. And on the other hand a christian is only the person who believes in Jesus and his teachings. BUT the whole world in now upside-down and the people do not know any more what is what and who is who. They adopted pagan concepts in both religions. They made from their liberty an insane behaviour. THey do not have Tora as a guide which is a MUST and also the principles of New Testament. Right is only what the Bible says is right, and also the Bible tells you what is wrong. If you do not believe this then you are neither jew nor christian. But the Bible tells us there is hope…..G-d has a plan for all of us.

  158. I’m so glad someone shared this blog on facebook and I saw it, because I’ve been following what I can about the persecution of Jewish believers in Israel for the last three years. through You Tube videos. I posted them on this blog. http://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/harvest-times-in-the-end-times/ http://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/fire-in-my-bones/ I was doing what I can to alert others about it, to get involved and to pray about it. I subscribe to Maoz I like your postings so far.

  159. Mark,
    Thanks for your reply. Sorry it took so long to reply, I was ill for several days Just to clarify something, are you putting all Christians who are pro-jewish (for a lack of a better term) in the same category? There is a Christian who works where I work, who has an Israeli flag on his desk, and has no interest in converting anyone. He states that he supports the right of Israel to exist, and something about a promise in the bible. Just trying to make sure I understand your point.

    Russ

  160. Hmm, a couple of questions from a Goy, who may have some Jewish ancestry since my last name is a derivation of a Jewish name and my G-G-Gdad’s name was Jacob and migrated here when Jewish persecution will going on in Germany, so who knows? If I have some of Abraham’s blood in me I am honored. If I weren’t a Christian, I would be a Jew, an Orthodox one. I was even honored by a Jew who attended a funeral that I was officiating at when he told me I reminded him of a Rebbe. I take that as the highest honor anyone has ever given me.

    Jews are proof of G-D’s existence. If G-D was not on their side they would have been gone from the earth long ago and considering they make up less than one percent of the world’s population it is amazing how many inventions and such are from the Jews and Israel is really the center of the earth occupying most of the other 99.9% of the earth’s population’s thoughts and actions. If it ever got down to one Jew left on earth I am standing with him because I will know for sure Shiloh is coming for there will always be a Jew as I also believe there will always be a Christian left when He comes.

    Anyway, y’all say you believe in Law and the Prophets and yet all lineage within them is traced from the man, not the woman so who gave you the right to change that to the mother? Can you overrule Moses and the prophets by scholarship? I can understand with all the mixing of the lineages why you may want to go in that direction but it flies in the face of G-D who ordained the man to be the determiner of lineage.

    Also, if without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin how can all the mitzvahs and keeping torah in the world do a thing for sin these last 2K years without a temple. And if it blood is not longer needed than why all the hoopla to rebuild a temple. It seems like a lot of waste of money and too dangerous a project to undertake unless you are thinking it is the extreme mitzvah. Then that would make it a reasonable goal.

    Priests in the Roman Catholic institution do what I feel a lot of your Rebbes do. The RCs look to the writings of their fathers more than to the authors of the Scriptures. If the writings of the fathers disagree with scripture the fathers win. Y’all tend to revere your Rebbes and their writings overrule Torah if they disagree. You avoid various parts of the Law and the Prophets and many of your congregations know less about your Scriptures than what the Goyim Christians do. That being said, I have some Rebbe friends and I have consulted them when I had a question about a particular passage or concept but they blow off some of my questions as well.

    Afraid to listen to the other side? I have allowed Mormons, JWs and various other groups an opportunity to convert me and I have held my ground pretty well in a Scriptural discussion. I have attended both Conservative and Reform services as well as Messianic and I am still a Baptist. If the proof were in the pudding I would converted and been glad that I was not left in my ignorance. I was raised a Methodist and my wife a Lutheran but we were those things only because we were born into it and had little clue about their doctrines or even the lads who started those groups. For the record, while Luther made some progress toward escaping the tyranny of Catholicism he was absolutely off his rocker in his anti-Antisemitism. What a shock he got when G-D straightened that out for him after he died.

    Anyway, it took a good-ole-boy from SC to get me to a church and in my mind to get him off my back to have that back fire on me and make me rethink my traditions. It was grand!

    I don’t hate any of those lads who tried to convert me. Truth can always withstand a challenge and I have been challenged by folks from all over. Doesn’t bother me and has not swayed me because I believe strongly that I have the truth but I don’t mind hearing from someone who may clarify something for me or give me a perspective that I have not thought about. It only makes me stronger.

    I’ll share with anyone who wants to hear but if they don’t convert it is OK. All are free to believe unless that belief causes physical harm to another person anything they like. The atheists and agnostics mock Jew an Christian alike but He shall have them in derision for the fool has said in his heart there is no God. They can believe in the joke of evolution if they like and find out they were wrong in the end. Christians and Jews both believe in that. So engage them when you can, pray for them and go on. It is G-D that converts anyway, not me. Makes my job much easier to not have to be responsible for a soul except to share and pray.

    Shabbot Shalom and may Shiloh come and bring peace to Jerusalem and to all men!

  161. There is no peace for idolaters which you represent – which is hybridism which is nothing at all. What a mess you Messies make of the Torah …..are you really so blind?

  162. @Yvonne, You make a blanket statement, but you don’t really have anything in your posts but empty statements. Can you substantiate what you are saying? I would like to know what you mean.

    @Mark. Been a while. Hope you are well.

  163. OK Claude, in reading the pure words of Torah, without referring “to what a mere human individual of group has commented about that few words”, please tell me whether an Ammonite or a Moabite can enter into the “congregation of the L-rd” at any time?

    • Good point, Mark. However, as in all law, preceding law prevails. Prior to this, Creator instructed Moshe’ to record a little piece about welcoming the stranger into their camp, and if he was properly addressed to ascertain sincerity, to be welcomed as a convert. That law was no laid to rest by that new decree dealing with pagan rebels.

      But, may I in turn request you to define why the Jew of religious persuasion today does not obey this plain Hebrew Scripture order?

      23Then Moses spoke to the sons of Israel, and they brought the one who had cursed outside the camp and stoned him with stones. Thus the sons of Israel did, just as the LORD had commanded Moses. Leviticus 24.

      • So let me understand your perspective. Since G-d said to welcome the stranger in a previous verse, it’s OK to ignore a future clarification that contradicts that verse, even if G-d makes the clarification. (BTW, do you consider the Torah to be in total chrolological order?)

      • Please respect my request to answer your obedience to Creator’s command in Leviticus 24:23. When you have sufficiently said why you do, or do not obey that plain command, we’ll progress. BTW, why do you use the pagan term for a pantheon deity? Funnier still, why replace the simple, adequate English “O” with a hyphen? That makes no sense whatsoever, in real or imagined terms of proper English language etymology.

    • Adequately? 2000 years ago your fathers defined “Adequately” to the answers they demanded from their Messiach, Y’suah, as “Either you tell us what we tell you to say, or we will kill you.” He didn’t. They murdered him. That’s the men you call your fathers. Would you carry their sorry traditions on?

      • You tell us, Claude. Today in America you Christians are very proud of the death penalty and you have executed thousands (actually more than 10 thousand!) of people since 1608 – all in the name of God and Christ. It is factually known that some of them were innocent, yet you keep the mantle of death to this day to impose on your fellow man.

        Here in Israel we do not have the death penalty and haven’t for 1/2 a century.

        So who is carrying on which sorry tradition?

      • Joe,
        As someone who had done the required training to try death penalty cases can you tell me where anyone is executed in the name of Christ?

        And don’t Christian groups oppose the death penalty?

        And aren’t there a bunch of capital offenses in the Torah?

        Let me know.

        Russ

  164. Hi Mark,
    I was reading one of your earlier comments about non Jewish people dressing up as Jewish as fraud. I saw a bunch of people coming from temple last Saturday and had I not known that they were Jewish, I would have thought they were Amish, because the dress is similar except for the prayer things with the tassels they wear around their necks (I don’t know what they are called). I have had people ask me if they were Amish, so there was probably more to your comment. It is funny that I have known so many Jewish people, yet know so little about their beliefs. I once asked a Jewish friend what the difference between Orthodox, Conservative, and Reformed are. His response was how close you park to the synagogue on Saturday. That was as much of an answer as I could get out of him.

    Now I would like to issue a friendly challenge to the posters, especially to Mark, Gev, Joseph, Leah8,and Joe Ben Avaram. As you seem to be the most passionate. You have debated for years, as this line of posting shows, what you disagree about. But is there anything that you do agree about? Is there any common ground where the divergent opinions meet? Is there common ground for those who define themselves as Jewish, Messianics, and Christians?

    I am really looking forward to the return posts. Sorry about any typing mistakes. I have an injured arm.

    My best to all

    Russ

  165. Common ground? Of course there is on the condition that any preaching, proselytizing and conversion of Jews is left out of the conversation.
    Once “Messianic Jews” stop trying to convert Jews to Christianity, then there is much common ground. So long as Evangelicals, Messianics and others try to convert Jews and try to make us believe in JC, well, there’s nothing to talk about.
    Russ, the only problem I have with these people is there belief that it’s ok to try and rob somebody of their religion and beliefs and replace it with their own. Of course they don’t call this robbery – the call it saving my soul and they tell me it’s ok for them to do it cuz JC told them to.

    We Jews don’t buy that. It’s caused us thousands of years of grief. I live in the homeland of the Jewish people, and I want the freedom to be Jewish and NOT have anybody try to convert me.
    The Messianics and others feel that it is their right and duty to pursue me and other Jews constantly and in perpetuity until we accept Jesus, otherwise our souls will be in hot lava forever.

    I don’t want any Christian pursuing me. I find it offensive. I find it disrespectful and hate inspired.

    They’ve already admitted that the more I tell them to leave me alone, the more they’re going to pursue me. The more I ask them politely to stay out of my country and keep their hands off my fellow Jews, the more they will try and do just that – stay here and try to baptize Jews.

    Common ground? The common ground should be mutual respect for each other’s religion. I don’t see that from those who say the only way they can respect me is to convert me.
    Dunno if that explains it for you, and hope your arm is better.
    Joe

    • You know, it’s OK to speak for yourself, but when you portend to “protect” others from what you do not like, then you’ve stepped into a cauldron of unilateral dictatorship that Jews, above all others, would have best knowledge to stay away from like the plague it is.

      Hitler’s practice of unilateral “protection” was the eliminate Jewry from bothering those he decided would require his special “services.” You, “Joe,” have managed to do exactly as Hitler, and decide for others what is in their best interests, regardless of their desires, and actual best interests. In fact, you’ve overstepped your bounds in that the Hebrew Scripture specifies that Y’suah IS your Messiah, and He is your Creator, as well, and, like He recorded for all the world to see, you, in this day, would reject Him,

      Deny your fellow Jew the Truth, the Life, and the Way to both, and your living will be the misery Prophet Ezekiel and others records for those who speak lies to those they are commissioned to minister Creator’s Living Word to. You need to read and understand the instruction in Ezekiel 34. As shepherds over those who need the Truth of Hebrew Scripture, not the pagan Mishnah and Talmud that pretend to even usurp Creator’s authority to write His Own Living Word for Him, you are held accountable to Creator to teach His record exactly as delivered, which includes that He came to earth 2000 years ago as a human, to do exactly as His Prophets recorded He would. Denying this for yourself, is bad and ignoble enough, but denying it to your fellow Jews is an evil that will stand before your Creator and raise a stench in His nose, just as He says it shall.

      Stuff your fingers in your ears all you will, but, that is Creator’s Living Word, and you will never outlive it. Be ever so grateful that those who persist to share Truth to your fellow Jews, even though you should kill them as your fathers killed those who prophesied in Creator’s Name to your stubborn ancestors, are laying their safety and life down to overcome your arrogant, heathen resistance. There’s a ton more on this in Hebrew Scripture, but you only need this much to repent, and turn to Truth. I speak from experience.

      • Well, it appears that you have proven my point. You are angry and inflamed that I would “deny” you the chance to convert me and my children.
        You see, I’m trying to protect my children from the likes of you, lurking there with your anger and hatred of things that refuse to become Christian.
        You’re the perfect example of a hateful Christian, but you are honest – your anger comes out in your posting.
        I want to protect my kids and keep them Jewish, yet you not only disrespect that you are insinuating that I’m going to kill people and the KBH is gonna curl up His nose since you say I stink because of my love of Torah and His commandments.

        I’m sorry to hear that you “speak from experience,” since it sounds like you’ve been casting your net for innocent Jews in your bid to rob them of their religion – that’s the Jewish point of view that you call an insult since we deny you the chance to harvest our souls for your nefarious (in our eyes) purposes.

        “Hebrew Scripture”??? Heck, I don’t think you’d know a sefer mishna if somebody gave you a set of them, and gemorrah and talmud too for that matter. That’s more than enough Hebrew to keep you busy for a lifetime. I know, because it keeps us busy for a lifetime – it is our life! We love it and we love our Torah. We are going to keep it. And we are going to reject and eject and repulse and fight missionaries like you who sneak into Israel to spit in our faces until long after the cows come home.

        And yes, when you tell me that my religion is no good and that God thinks I stink – that’s about as insulting as you can get. You call that Christian love of your fellow man? Humbug! You sound like you are not convinced of God yourself, so you have to take out your frustrations on innocent Jews.

        • Joe,

          Oh!?

          I suppose when Isiah walked naked among your proud, LOST ancestors for three years just to show your stiff-necked dad’s how “naked” before Y’suah Creator we ALL are, you’d been first in line to denigrate and slander “Proud, Proselytizing Isaiah” The same guillotine your stiff-necked ancestors showed ALL Truth Sayers sent by Y’suah to open their stubborn hearts to His Salvation?

          The fact you and this entire – and wonderful, I need to add – dialogue display for all the world is how far the absolute Love of Y’suah goes to His lost Sheep, Y’srael. He chose the Jew simply because He knew His creature, Man, and the most stiff-necked race of Man, the Jew, choosing the Jew to completely obfuscate all disbelief in His Eternal and abiding love for, and determined, dogged work to “convert” the Jew to His Plan of Salvation.

          This begs some clarification, as pagan Rome under Deception, did a marvelous work under The Evil One to infiltrate Master Y’suah’s Plan of Salvation.

          Pagan Christian – Again; PAGAN Christianity is not, NEVER, and conclusively has no authority to stand in Y’suah’s shoes, just as PAGAN Judaism Priests have the exact same incapacity to stand in for, and, as they openly claim, speak so vividly for The Deity that even He cannot negate their silly choices.

          That said, Pagan Christianity and its fool multi-deity ends where The Evil One invaded The Garden of Eden, via Serpent. Remember, Serpent was first compromised, then Ishah, then the REAL goal of Death to Man, Ish, was compromised, and the rest is, as they say, “history.”

          This “History” includes the Jew, B4 he was called 2B a Jew – a “Set Apart One.”

          If you dare to dig a bit into WHERE Jewry originated, you discover it was PAGAN Nimrod Country – Babylon. The issue was – as Judaism aptly records, heathen substitution for The Deity by all created object worship. This, today, is observed in Jewry, as, instead of worship of Creator Y’suah, Jewry demands the “right” to go on worshiping their pagan dogma of religious diatribe against their Redeemer, Who, BTW, sent many. many Truth Sayers into His Jewry, as one sends lambs into a den of starved lions to see if the lions are still alive, because they will slaughter that lamb, if they are.

          Make no mistake, Jewry is close to having its Redeemer show His living face in His Absolute Love for His People, and all who dare stand and tell Him He is a proud, arrogant religious bigot may find themselves lying at His feet in a not so comfortable way. Does His Authority OVER His People bother you?

          No, since you try to lump me in with those who proselytize Jews to pagan Christianity, making it clear to you that I was led out from that heathen enclave by Y’suah, The Deity you and your ancestry still try to shove into the Pit. His Living Word is found in His Hebrew Scripture, and in it also is the manifold witness against Jewry for rejecting Him, and His Messenger, Y’suah, to you, and all Jewry.

          Now, am I angry? Yes! In the very same way Naked Truth Sayer Isaiah was, as he paraded his genitalia before your fathers, to waken their hearts to understand how NAKED their rejection of Master Y’suah actually is.

          Get educated in Truth. Truth alone, will set you and all Jewry from Deception. All the pagan litany that Judaism can vomit out will only confuse, and hold you in blind confusion. The Salvation of the Jew is the same salvation of the pagan the world over; He, Y’suah, spells this Salvation out in His Hebrew Scripture.

          Now, regarding keeping Moshe’ “law.” One of your own, Sha,ul, given the pagan name, “Paul,” by pagan Vatican leaders, was met in his zeal to stamp out Y’suah’s family, by Y’suah. He, Rabbi(“Dr.”) Sha’ul, was blinded by Master Y’suah’s righteous Light, and Sha’ul finally SAW Whom he was actually persecuting as he operated under the pagan spell of Judaism to eradicate the Believers. Jew Believers, mind you.

          NOT proselytized jews, but those who merely humbled themselves to pray and seek their Master’s Forgiveness for their rejection of Him, and His Word.

          Rabbi Sha’ul went on to suffer 14 years under heavy physical prosecution from pagan Judaism and other pagans where Y’suah led him in his transformation from pagan Judaism to Truth.

          Later, after years’ ministry to mainly European pagans, Rabbi Sha,ul witnessed the attempts by a fellow Believer to drag both Jew and converted pagans into Moshe’ “law” keeping. Deny it all you will, but Rabbi Sha,ul made THE one Truth against Moshe’ “Law” keeping that stands for all Eternity: Creator Y’suah despises “law” keeping.

          “Law” keeping removes personal responsibility. It substitutes for personal responsibility, which is why you so vehemently oppose conversion to Y’suah and His Living Way, the personal relationship with Master Y’suah that He practiced with our mother and father in the Great Garden of Eden, on a daily basis, where He walked with these two in the cool of the evening, discussing Their sharing His Living.

          You, as all pagan Jewry, have no such relationship with Master Y’suah, for you live under a pile of rotting Deception. Your ancestor, Truth Sayer Isiah, did not live under this pile. So, your ancestors berated him as their enemy – their worst enemy, as you do, now, and here.

          Master Y’suah gave your ancestors His Moshe’ “law” to PROVE that “law” keep is totally worthless as a means to His Living. That is the entire scope and focus of 1500 yeas of failure on failure to keep Moshe’ “law.” The entire Hebrew Scripture is His abundant, verbose record of how even His most stubborn race of Man is incapable of maintaining any semblance of Truth by “law” keeping.

          Now, as Creator Y’suah plainly said in His physical ministry to your people, “I came not to abolish “law,” but to magnify it,” He made explicitly clear to your ancestors, 2000 years ago, WHAT real law keeping IS: “Love The Deity with all your being; and the second is like this, also; “love your neighbor as yourself. Upon these two absolutes hang Heaven and Earth.” (My paraphrase)

          Think not for a single instant that my anger is directed at you! The livid anger in my soul is for the Deceiver whose lies your tongue echoes, for once I also echoed those same deceptions. Yes, it’s VERY personal!:-))

          Truth is As he says He is: “I AM Way, Truth, and the Life. No man comes to the Source(wrongly transliterated “father”), except through Me.”

          This Truth stormed into your pagan Judaism temple and overturned the tables and money exchanger cash registers where your people doggedly kept their substitute worship practice of Moshe’ “law” instead of seeking Truth in their heart.

          You, nor I, will ever get to the Source by another way, but through the self-offered blood of Master Y’suah.

    • Joe Ben,
      thanks for your reply. I am sorry I was not more clear on what I was asking, . I do admire your passion. I will make a list of things and see if both sides agree.

      Agree or disagree?

      One God?

      God of Israel?

      Same God As muslims?

      Same god as Mormons?

      Is the bible, or at least the OT the word of God?

      Does the bible promise a Messiah? (not asking identity as this is obviously a point of contention)

      If so, is the messiah just for jews or for the whole human race?

      DId Jesus exist?

      If so, what was he? Messiah, Rabbi, or Jim Jones type?

      Are there Christians with a genuine love for the Jewish People?

      And this comes from conversations with others not on this board.

      The christian scripture speak of a man of sin, ie the anti-christ. Real or not real?

      I have been told that Haman and Hitler were the two worst enemies of the Jews, but this guy will be far worse then both of them put together. True or not?

      Thanks everyone have a great day. or evening depending on where you are.

      on a side note: Being involved on this blog makes me want to learn Hebrew. Not joking.

      • Russ – great questions you have, but probably a 6 month long full-time explanation.
        In short, we Jews for the most part do not spend a lot of time on comparative religions so I personally really can’t help you with a lot of those questions. We have more than enough material within Judaism to keep us busy for a lifetime.

        Depending on where you are, I’d head for a comparative religions course at your local college, or check your local library for a good text (sorry, can’t recommend any as it’s not my field).

        Learning Hebrew to understand the bible is a huge start, and a huge task. Most serious Christian scholars do indeed learn Hebrew (for the Old Testament) as well as ancient Greek (for the New Testament) so that they can study them in the original. I know several Jewish scholars who also are experts in ancient Greek because many texts pertaining to Jews are written in it.
        Why do Jewish kids learn Hebrew? So they can study the bible. My generation happens to be lucky enough that Israel has been re-established and Hebrew is once again the mother tongue here. It’s a huge thrill that my kids learn Torah every day (and math and science and grammar and literature and English and phys-ed, etc etc etc) and challenge me with interpretations of not just the five books, but also the prophets, mishna, talmud and gemorrah. I live on the path between Hebron and Jerusalem where our ancestors went to and fro…and yours too if you’re a Christian, since Jesus was from around here as well.

        I get to met many Christians who visit here and others who live here, and they all enjoy being part of the modern Israel in their own way. I am dealing with a Christian organization from Europe who are just amazing, loving, giving individuals. They are motivated by their love of people (Jews included) and Israel, and their quest for acts of chesed (a great Hebrew word….look it up) and tzedakah. While they are indeed evengelicals, they have great respect for the Jewish people and preaching to us is NOT on their agenda at all. Claude could take a few lessons from them in humility.

      • Joe,

        Sorry Just found your post. I never received notice of it. Thanks for the info. Took the class many years ago. It was taught by a muslim. that would be interesting to ask his perspective. But there is a reason I ask you people as opposed to going to a book. A book will present it. But a book does not have flesh and bones, a personality, and if I may, a soul. I don’t think a book could capture what is involved with trying to live your beliefs. I would rather have your point of view that the position that a book would state, because i believe your point of view is much more valuable.

        Russ

    • I have a slightly different perspective than Joe. I understand that it is a tenet of the Christian faith to present Christianity “to the Jew first, and then to the Greek.” Therefore to ask someone to ignore this directive would be tatamount to asking me not to observe the Sabbath as I understand it. But it does come down to respect, as Joe says, and honesty as well. Judaism and Christianity are two seperate and distinct faith systems. It is absurd to say that one can be both at the same time (and please don’t give me “I can be culturally Jewish and still believe in Jesus). It it possible to believ that G-d is an inseperable one, and at the same time that he has three parts? Can you believe that the Messiah has not come yet, and at the same time believe that he has come already, but he’ll come again? If you are a Christian, then it impossible to be Jewish, in the same way that it is impossible to claim to be Christian, but believe that Mohammed is also a prophet of G-d. It is disrespectful and downright fraudulent to sit in a cafeteria and eat pork chops while wearing a kippa – which they did at the Messiah conference, until I pointed out the hypocracy of it. If you are Christian, don’t dress up as if you are Jewish – even if you were born Jewish – because you are no longer Jewish. Don’t call your religious leader “Rabbi”, your church a “synagogue” or throw around Hebrew names and terminology. Maybe it makes you feel more comfortable in leaving the Jewish people, but for me, it is distasteful and deceptive, and only designed to bring other unsuspecting Jews into Christianity.

      • Mark,

        Me think you are confused. Talking religion and calling it a culture. I am a Jew born and raised in Israel to Jewish parents, and yes, I believe that Yeshua is God’s Jewish sent Messiah. so who qualified you to decide if I can continue being a Jew or not?

        I agree with you that wearing a kippa and eating pork is not cool. This is a lack of education not a difference in culture. Just like wearing a chasidic garb and reading a Playboy magazine on the streets of Jerusalem……

      • Ahh Dan, I think it is you who are confused. Being Jewish is and always was being part of a faith system, and has nothing to do with culture. You may have been born into a Jewish family – even in Israel, but you have left the Jewish people – and Judaism – with your acceptance of Christianity. In the same way that one can become a Jew by accepting that faith, one can also stop being a Jew, by accepting another faith, which is what you have done – even if you claim that it is the “most Jewish thing in the world,” because, that’s simply not true.

      • So, Mark, If I’m understanding your statement (that anyone who accepts the faith of Judaism is Jewish, and anyone that accepts another faith is no longer Jewish) – am I to consider all Noachide gentiles now Jewish and all buddhist and atheist Jews no longer Jewish?

      • Mark,
        Hope you are well. A quick question. I would like your opinion. What about a Christian organization that uses some Jewish worship customs (not sure if it is the right word) not to pretend to be Jewish but to honor G-d. What would be your take on that?

        Have a great one and shalom.

        Russ

  166. Dan Benzvi, if I read your response to Mark Powers right, you are a fellow Believer in Y’suah, Who is Deity, and Who created All, exactly as Hebrew Scripture records. As for dear Mark, we who made the confession that we are bent over in our digression from Creator’s making us in His likeness, and having no error, but by our will we went astray, need to band together and fast and pray for him, and those like him who would not only deny his own right to receive Life, but would deny that Life to all Jewry. His remarks here – and I hope you read them again, Mark – reflect the distinct character of both the ancient and modern Pharisee, who tries to believe he has authority to change Hebrew Scripture to read what he wants, and not even Creator has the right to differ!

    If you enter “how pharisees change scripture” in a YouTube search, the returns blow you away with the expose’ of the false doctrines of the Pharisee Order! If you search for “The Hebrew Yeshua vs. the Greek Jesus,” that 2 hour presentation takes your breath away! It’s a scholarly discourse about modern Pharisee practice in Israel, by a Karaite Rabbi.

    I encourage all readers here to study this presentation, and then also go to Michael Rood’s YouTube presentations.

    But, in all things, let’s remember how Y’suah Himself addressed these determined false prophets! He wasted few words, and when they tried Him for His NOT obeying their demands that even Creator bow to their false doctrines, He was silent. He did tell them to go back to His previous statements, but they had just one plan for any, even Creator, who dared defy their demands. Mark appears to be one of that order.

    • Ahh, Nicole, how wrong you are. We don’t consider you “cut off”, but rather unfortunately, lost and misled. That’s why we take the time to dialogue with you, in the hope that the “veil will be lifted from your eyes” and you can come home. If we didn’t care about you as a former Jew, we could easily write you off, and spend our time more productively. The reality is that the loss of even one Jew is painful to us, and that’s why we go out of our way to reach out to you. We lost so many during the Shoah (Russ – that’s “holocaust”), why should we not do what we can to prevent more from being lost? Check out the stories of those who have returned. Perhaps they’ll speak to you. :-(

        • That your deigning to interact with us, is not out of pure enjoyment and intellectual relish, but out of religious duty or pity?

      • Thank for the translation Mark. It is appreciated. I have a question. If Christians believe that salvation comes through Christ, and they tell people, yet Jewish people believe they are correct, as you have referred to Nicole as lost, would not Jews have an obligation to evangelize (I believe that is the proper word) non Jews so they can have a relationship with G-d/salvation? (not sure how to characterize it.)

  167. no, we should let them dialogue with us, as long as it stays civil, everyone should stay away from insults.

    The bible causes us to provoke Jewish people to Jealousy, so lets do it with torah and how God’s love overcomes our own challenges.

  168. “Ahh Dan, I think it is you who are confused. Being Jewish is and always was being part of a faith system, and has nothing to do with culture. You may have been born into a Jewish family – even in Israel, but you have left the Jewish people – and Judaism – with your acceptance of Christianity. In the same way that one can become a Jew by accepting that faith, one can also stop being a Jew, by accepting another faith, which is what you have done – even if you claim that it is the “most Jewish thing in the world,” because, that’s simply not true.”

    And you of course is the one who makes the rules, right? You also have no knowledge of halacha. According to halacha one does not become Jewish by faith. According to halacha ine becomes Jewish by cutting the shwantzel….Accordin g to halacha one is Jewish if one’s mother is Jewish. So please, stop making new rules as you go….

    • TO ALL JEWISH POSTERS:

      PLEASE DEFINE THE HEBREW WORDS FOR THOSE OF US WHO DON’T SPEAK HEBREW! IT GOES A LONG WAY TO HELP US UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE SAYING. WE WANT TO UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE SAYING.

      THANK YOU FOR YOUR HELP
      RESPECTFULLY
      THOSE OF US WHO DON’T SPEAK HEBREW

      • Hey Russ, or should I say, HEY RUSS! ;)
        Some of the Jewish posters here don’t speak Hebrew either, so you’re in good company. And many of the terms you’ll read here are Yiddish, as well. I understand your frustration, but with any foray into learning there should be an expectation of encountering the associated jargon, that, by nature, will be unfamiliar to those outside of the particular field of study. It’s happened to us all at some point and it’s good to be challenged. It’s just not realistic to request everyone here communicate from a universal glossary of terms or define every term they use. While it’s to the speaker’s benefit to be understood by as wide an audience as possible, there are often many types of people taking part in these discussions – and some only interested in speaking to one person at a time.

        You’re online already, so when you see an unfamiliar word, try a quick search – you may find much more helpful information than what is sometimes contained in these comment threads anyway. I mean you no disrespect whatsoever and hope that helps you.

      • HEY LUKE! Thanks for the response Bro. I am not looking for a full blown definition or Hebrew/English dictionary, but just throwing a bone here and there would be appreciated. To put it bluntly, the subject being debated here is PRETTY IMPORTANT (emphasis added). The existence, identity, and will of the God is a heavy duty subject. It would be greatly appreciated if someone went like this for example: Torah (first five books of the bible) or HaShem (The Name used to refer to God). I know it may throw some people off of what they are writing, but there are those of us who would like to respectfully consider what you have to say.

        Have a great one Luke. And Shalom to everyone

        Russ

    • Wow. I don’t think my daughter came with a “shwantzel.” Also, would you please tell me what the name of Ruth’s (yeah, the one from the Bible) Jewish mother was? ;-)

      • Mark,
        Being a goy (I learned a new word) Does Shwantzel mean what I think it does?

        If so neither one of my daughters did either.

        Russ

      • Mark,

        please show us from Scriptures what kind of ritual did Ruth had to undergo in order to become a part of the covenant community?

        Did she have to study for a Year? Did she have to go through a mikvah? Or “your God be my God…” was enough? And why we never read about Ruth the Israelite, only Ruth the Moavite?

      • I can explain how Ruth’s decedents can be considered Jewish when she is not. If she had a son who married a Jewish woman, the children would be Jewish. (I learned this from Mark.)

    • Yes Dan, there is a Santa Claus, err I mean a difference. Hebrew4Jews is read right to left. Hebrew4Christians is read left to right. :)

      • Dan,
        I tried reading it top to bottom, but it did not work out so well. After Adam loaded the animals into the ark, Moses built the temple in Jerusalem, and King David was led into captivity in Babylon.

        Russ

      • Hey Mark,

        Were you talking about Dan? Because of you were talking about me, according to my background, I would wear a viking helmet over my mohawk instead of a Kippa. :)

        Have a great one and shalom to everyone.

        Russ

      • Hey Mark,
        Thanks for the reply. The top to bottom was humor. I have been reading up on some of the history of Israel. I don’t know how to break it to you, but I am not Jewish. Although theoretically I could be as my maternal grandmother grew up in an orphanage in NYC. If i remember correctly you said you could be Jewish through your maternal line. Leah8 said you can have your DNA tested to find out, and I probably will.

        Also thanks to all who have contributed to my educational experience. You have no idea how much I appreciate the dialog. This is the second time I have attempted to learn about Judaism. The first attempt did not go so well. A friend took me to temple on Rosh Shoshana eve. After the service the Rabbi was greeting everyone with a huge smile. When my friend introduced me to the Rabbi the look went from big smile to “i just stepped in something” I guess a six two fair skinned blonde haired blued eyed guy did not look Jewish.

        Shalom to all my friends out there.

        I look forward to reading the posts. Most of them are a bright spot in my day.

        Russ

  169. Dan,
    Some pretty heavy duty issues are discussed on this board. I understand that passions can run high. But the animosity that is displayed among the posters is something that is not needed. Maybe a little humor can help bring things into a little better perspective. Or at least that is my hope. And of course there is the occasional drive by posting that is insulting. Yet consider this if you will: Here is a board where people of differing beliefs debate issues yet each one appears to have an underlying motive: It appears that each one values Judaism as they see it. In a way this is unprecedented. Especially considering what is happening in the world. In the United States, the biggest supporters of Israel are evangelical Christians. That would have unthinkable 50 years ago, especially given the history of the two groups. And Jewish followers of Jesus who did not convert under threat? Pretty much unheard of. I am thankful that there is another person on this board who can value humor as much as debate.

    Hopefully one day I will get to share a meal with some of the posters on this board. It is something I think I would really enjoy.

    Russ

  170. “Ahh Dan, I think it is you who are confused. Being Jewish is and always was being part of a faith system, and has nothing to do with culture.”

    What an educated statement…..
    When I was born my faith system was so strong that God decided to make me a Jew….

    Ignorance is bliss…….

  171. I wish I could invite everyone posting here to my place for a cookout. I think it would be interesting to have one loud mass conversation into wee hours in the morning. I know it is off subject. Just saying.

    • That would be awesome, Russ. I’ve often had similar wishes. I think we’d all get so much more accomplished in person. The closest we could probably (realistically) come to a twilight cookout / Torah study would be the upcoming AMF (Asheville Music Festival) this August. All signs point to an awesome event, and I’m sure there will be some amazing discussions on into the night. I know quite a few people going (including myself) – it would be great to meet some of you guys there. You can learn more at amf12.com

      • Thanks for the Info. That is a beautiful area there. I went to training to drive an 18 wheeler there. A few notes for you. Morning fog can be horrible there. More so later in the year. So drive careful. While there I suggest taking a drive through the blue ridge mountains and visiting the biltmore estate. Have a great time.

  172. “Obviously that’s impossible. But what is also impossible is for you to explain how her descendants were considered Jews, including David, the King.”

    Mark, try to understand the issue at hand…

    If Israel is the covenant community, in order for one to become a covenant member does the Bible require a ritual of some sort, or is it just a later Rabbinical invention?

  173. Dan, I got this one. This is from my post above. I can explain how Ruth’s decedents can be considered Jewish when she is not. If she had a son who married a Jewish woman, the children would be Jewish. (I learned this from Mark.)

  174. i am Jewish and also have accepted Yeshua Mashiah Our King.

    However, if i may inform people that are coming to believe in Our Mashiah that messianic judaism is in danger of becoming just another religion and It must not.

    There is a note about women rabbis, there must not be any women rabbis as there are no rabbis anyway except for Our Saviour and It Is His Very Words that Say this, so all of you trying to make a religion to suit your egos becareful as this is not Our Saviours teaching.

    Everything that you need to know is in the Torah. After all what is known as the Old and New Testaments is actually all Torah. The Torah before Our Saviour came is the question and The Answer is when Our Saviour came, but Its all Torah.

    We have to be flexible with The Torah as each new problem that is presented to us has its answer in Torah but it must be adapted to the present day thinking and this can be done by Prayer as Ezra and Yirimiyahu all tried to explain that its more about developing a personal relationship with Our God Elohim.

    Any congregation that has a rabbi, leave it as it’s built on the ego. This a is a fact.

    May i wish you all well

    and Shalom Aleikhem

  175. Please pray for Aussie Dave, the guy who runs Israellycool blog. Hes a religious guy from Australia who likes to make fun of Israel haters and has a good bit of news and banter on his site.

    His wife Erica has some serious illness which might be cancer.

    It would be great for all believers to pray and show support for Dave, Erica and their family.

    • Tell “Aussie Dave” to search for Hydrogen Peroxide as cancer destroyer, online. Four years ago I discovered it, and completely reversed a fast-growing, choking lump in my throat. H2O2 attacks all cancer, and is naturally-occurring in the blood, but the immune system makes too small an amount to deal effectively with the toxic diets of today.

      Anyway, knowledge is health!

  176. Mark, I was under the impression that Isaiah 53 is left out of the Sabbath Torah readings in most synagogues. Correct? Also, I have heard that prior to Rashi, rabbis believed that there would be two Messiahs: a suffering Messiah that would die and a second Messiah that would reign (Daniel 7: 13-14). Christians, of course, believe that Yeshua resolves this issue with His Second Coming. [P.S. Could you tell me if there is more than one "Joe" commenting on this blog? If so, I'm not sure which one I was replying to. lol]

  177. Ah, Sheryl, you don’t know what you are talking about. These old canards were debunked years ago. It’s a shame that you didn’t check it out before you bought into it. If you are really interested in the truth, contact me off the blog – akiva@comcast.net – and I’ll be happy to explain it to you.

    • Me too! Sheryl!

      Have you watched Nehemia Gordon’s presentation of The Hebrew Yeshua vs. the Greek Jesus?

      Nehemia dispenses with the sham of the pagan Judaism system that Y’suah denounces with absolute vehemence! They are the reason Y’suah twice, at least, trashed the usury-profiting Judaistic Temple marketers’ businesses operating there every Shabbat! UGH! GRRRR!

      Today, Judaism is losing its war on Truth, and Y’suah is overrunning Nation Y’srael with His Love and Truth! Yeah!

    • Sheryl, GRR! These stupid WordPress commenting forms! WordPress has the least user-friendly commenting system of *any* forum online!

      Oh well . . . I tried to leave the following replay to your comment here. In risk of WordPress actually having posted it, but failing to display it, as the idiot program warned me of a double post! I’m reposting!
      “Me too! Sheryl!

      Have you watched Nehemia Gordon’s presentation of The Hebrew Yeshua vs. the Greek Jesus?

      Nehemia dispenses with the sham of the pagan Judaism system that Y’suah denounces with absolute vehemence! They are the reason Y’suah twice, at least, trashed the usury-profiting Judaistic Temple marketers’ businesses operating there every Shabbat! UGH! GRRRR!

      Today, Judaism is losing its war on Truth, and Y’suah is overrunning Nation Y’srael with His Love and Truth! Yeah!

  178. Joe,

    I think the thing that is largely being overlooked by you, and many others involved in this thread, is what so many people have tried to convey: Messianic Jews/Christians don’t wish to convert anyone to anything. At least they shouldn’t. I will be the first to admit that having been raised foremost in the christian church, at one point I do remember thinking that Jews needed to be “saved” and made “Christians,” but I now realize the folly in this thinking, and to the dismay of many, this is still the goal of many christian churches/organizations.

    The goal is not to convert anyone to anything, but to please and follow HaShem Elohim by way of the Torah instructions that He has given, first to Jews, then to goyim. Any “christian” or “messianic jew” who is aiming to “save” the Jewish people is missing the point entirely, just as you miss the point in the goal of Messianics in general. We are not aiming, at least I personally am not, to gain approval from you or any other Jew out there, nor to be accepted as one of you. Your approval is not what I need or desire. Would it make me happy to see Jews and Messianics living in harmony as we all seek to please G-d by follow His Torah? Heck yes! But what I seek is the approval of HaShem by way of following what He has instructed me to do as spelled out in D’varim 6.
    The link below contains what I consider to be a very succinct and eloquent explanation as to what I have attempted to point out here, that it is not the goal of Messianic Judaism to “convert” Jews to anything, but to please G-d with our lifestyles, by living in a way that He instructs us to.

    http://www.elshaddaiministries.us/audio/more/goal_of_hr.html

  179. Joe Ben Abraham:

    I appreciate the need for Jews to remain Jews (as I read the scriptures, we all need for you to) but I am perplexed about something.

    I’m a (gentile) believer in Yeshua, which means I’ve accepted the Jewish concept of a Messiah (my peeps weren’t looking for a Messiah) and a Jewish man who came 2k years ago and fulfilled the suffering servant, Messiah Ben Joseph, prophecies found in the Hebrew Scriptures.

    Frequently I answer my door to find a Mormon or JW on my porch trying to persuade me that their version of the Hebrew Scriptures and Yeshua is correct. This is far more confrontational than encountering them in a public setting, and their beliefs are beyond offensive to me on a theological level, yet I NEVER feel the need to “hate” them, be rude to them, try to pass laws against them, and I especially do not FEAR them.

    I can give you many reasons to be against them: America was founded on Judaeo Christian principles, they distort and pervert God’s Word, Yeshua’s identity, and claim to be the only “correct” way to God and that historic Christianity is an abomination to God, yet they will call themselves “Christian” in order to sound more paletable. I consider them to be a false religion and would never want my children to accept their doctrine.

    However, instead of attacking them (verbally or otherwise) I politely refuse their printed material and many times invite them in to go over the problematic aspects of their theology. I RESPECTFULLY point out the fallacies of their doctrine that I’ve taken the time to sort through, in order to have a meaningful dialogue as well as to properly defend the One True God of Israel. They can agree or disagree and continue to knock on my door or not, but I never FEAR these people.

    This is my problem. Why don’t Jews just kindly point out to the “missionary” how the bible proves them wrong? How Yeshua cannot be the suffering servant of God who gathers even the Gentiles to himself before the final Judgment and redemption? Why the fear and anger? If what you believe is correct it will be provable by the Scriptures and will not be convincing to someone in search of truth.

    • On various occasions I’ve tried to “kindly point out” not how the bible (Old Testament only, since I don’t accept the new one) proves missionaries wrong, but they have never been intereted in listening. Missionaries aren’t searching for the truth cuz they’ve already found it – and they are not interested in entertaining the concept that other people simply do not accept their worldview and religious beliefs.
      Remember – missionaries are supposed to keep doing what they do even when they are rejected (read the postings way up above on this thread). They think that the rejection is part of the mission. Ergo, you can’t point anything out to a true missionary because their mission is to convert people, and not to be talked out of converting.
      Actually, I had a good friend from Canada who loved to get all the JWs canvassing his neighborhood, then bring out his Tanach (scriptures in Hebrew) to which, of course, none of the JWs could read (although every now and then one of them did have some rudimentary Hebrew) and he’d play them for a bit and try to teach them something.
      I remember a young JW couple coming to my door one summer, and I sat on the porch with them and picked out “an eye for an eye” and showed them the original words (ayin tachat ayin) which doesn’t literally mean ‘an eye for an eye’…the poor things got so flustered because they never knew that their bible was a translation and English is not the original langauge of the bible.
      Sigh

      • I would welcome any wisdom from Jewish people regarding the idioms of the Bible. But do you think God is unable to speak English? Or Greek? Do you think that speaking Hebrew gives you some advantage before the throne of the Almighty?

        1 Corinthians 13
        1 I may speak in the tongues of men, even angels;
        but if I lack love, I have become merely
        blaring brass or a cymbal clanging.
        2 I may have the gift of prophecy,
        I may fathom all mysteries, know all things,
        have all faith — enough to move mountains;
        but if I lack love, I am nothing.
        3 I may give away everything that I own,
        I may even hand over my body to be burned;
        but if I lack love, I gain nothing.
        4 Love is patient and kind, not jealous, not boastful,
        5 not proud, rude or selfish, not easily angered,
        and it keeps no record of wrongs.
        6 Love does not gloat over other people’s sins
        but takes its delight in the truth.
        7 Love always bears up, always trusts,
        always hopes, always endures.
        8 Love never ends; but prophecies will pass,
        tongues will cease, knowledge will pass.
        9 For our knowledge is partial, and our prophecy partial;
        10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass.
        11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child,
        thought like a child, argued like a child;
        now that I have become a man,
        I have finished with childish ways.
        12 For now we see obscurely in a mirror,
        but then it will be face to face.
        Now I know partly; then I will know fully,
        just as God has fully known me.
        13 But for now, three things last —
        trust, hope, love;
        and the greatest of these is love.

  180. I’m tempted to say that when a Jihad Muslim crashes your door in demanding your head and wife and daughters and maybe your sons, not in any particular order, and you kindly invite them for coffee and a friendly discussion, the reality of why Y’suah never practiced civility to greed-based Temple “priests” who bought the office may, just may, begin to mean something!

    Lucifer deceived Ishah by ‘kindly’ sitting down with her in a calm discussion about how wrong Creator’s command, and therefore He, Himself was/is, to demand such an inconvenience as to NOT eat a given fruit. So much for “friendly” dialogue on Spiritual Truth.

      • I’m tempted to say that when a Jihad Muslim crashes your door in demanding your head and wife and daughters and maybe your sons, not in any particular order, and you kindly invite them for coffee and a friendly discussion, the reality of why Y’suah never practiced civility to greed-based Temple “priests” who bought the office may, just may, begin to mean something!

        Details: “when a Jihad Muslim crashes your door in” — Islam demands those in areas controlled by Islam armed forces to convert to Islam in a period of time, or face death, and they are known to rape, plunder and kill children before parent’s eyes to effect their goals.

        “and you kindly invite them for coffee and a friendly discussion, — Like bogus priests in the temple under Roman rule who paid for their office in occupied Y’srael, when Islam Jihadists occupy an area by force they use their unlawful power to impose their pagan religion on the victim people. Opposing unlawful temple priests under their legal system was their license to plunder, murder and likely rape, as they were caught red-handed trying to pass-off a woman they “caught” in adultery. The occupying Islam forces are well-documented for following his same pattern – and to invite them in for peaceful discussion means only one thing – surrender to their demands.

        “the reality of why Y’suah never practiced civility to greed-based Temple “priests” who bought the office may, just may, begin to mean something!”

        — Y’suah never spoke a civil word to usurper temple priests for the reason they were wolves. He did say to follow what they taught from His Hebrew Scripture, but never from their oral and non-Torah writings. Nehemia Gordon clearly addresses this. Instead, Y’suah called these armed usurpers “vipers” and worse names.

        “Lucifer deceived Ishah by ‘kindly’ sitting down with her in a calm
        discussion”about how wrong Creator’s command, and therefore He, Himself was/is, to demand such an inconvenience as to NOT eat a given fruit. So much for “friendly” dialogue on Spiritual Truth.”

        Perhaps she did not know Serpent was lying, but Ishah did not consult husband, Ish after Serpent advised her to do what Ish told her not to do, and added his own command, “And do not touch the fruit” to the words Creator said to him. Had Ishah first asked Ish whether to follow Serpent’s advice or not, she most likely would have not obeyed Serpents calm, self-assured deception.

        Ish was not with Ishah for Serpent’s likely lengthy contact with Ishah. That begs the question: “Where was Ish instead of with Ishah, and why?”

        It also begs the question, “How did Serpent gain Ishah’s confidence? Was it not by approaching her as a friend in time of need Ish was not supplying his wife?”

        On a discussion about entertaining LDS and JW missionaries, the best advice was “Never, ever allow either to self-witness to the veracity of their deception. This applies to Muslim equally, and here’s why:

        During indoctrination – and this comes from the mouths of JW, Islam and Mormon indoctrination leaders’ mouths, the “mantra” about each pagan religion is spoken over and over, in continuous repetition, reprogramming the brain to respond with self-affirmation of the false doctrine being the only true doctrine, no matter how silly and irrational that doctrine is exposed to be in light of Truth and historical fact.

        So, when one invites these highly reprogrammed missionaries in for a calm discussion over spiritual doctrines, the reprogrammed missionary will repeatedly state over and over the false doctrines implanted indelibly in their memory, essentially blocking out every possible negating fact.

        The only way to get through this self-hypnosis is to absolutely forbid even thinking the self-assuring programming as the facts are studied and shared with full participation by the pagan missionary. This can lead to confrontation, because of the programmed strength of the training drilled into the pagan religion missionary.

        In fact, this is exactly what Y’suah was addressing when confronting Judaism temple leaders who self-hypnotized with their false doctrinal rants.

  181. Those who fear the truth oppress it. Those who are insecure in their position or faith fear to have it challenged. Those who are secure in their faith have no problems being questioned. I have had my faith challenged and threatened many times over the years and yet I remain convinced that I am in right path and can freely discuss it without fear. I can allow the other person their beliefs as long as it does not include violence. In the end, we shall all learn who was correct so I can live peacefully if the other chooses to do so.

  182. http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/jesus/greenleaf.html

    Testimony of the Evangelists by Simon Greenleaf (1783-1853)
    Greenleaf, one of the principle founders of the Harvard Law School, originally set out to disprove the biblical testimony concerning the resurrection of Jesus Christ. He was certain that a careful examination of the internal witness of the Gospels would dispel all the myths at the heart of Christianity. But this legal scholar came to the conclusion that the witnesses were reliable, and that the resurrection did in fact happen.
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    In examining the evidence of the Christian religion, it is essential to the discovery of truth that we bring to the investigation a mind freed, as far as possible, from existing prejudice, and open to conviction. There should be a readiness, on our part, to investigate with candor to follow the truth wherever it may lead us, and to submit, without reserve or objection, to all the teachings of this religion, if it be found to be of divine origin. “There is no other entrance,” says Lord Bacon, “to the kingdom of man, which is founded in the sciences, than to the kingdom of heaven, into which no one can enter but in the character of a little child.” The docility which true philosophy requires of her disciples is not a spirit of servility, or the surrender of the reason and judgment to whatsoever the teacher may inculcate; but it is a mind free from all pride of opinion, not hostile to the truth sought for, willing to pursue the inquiry, and impartiality to weigh the arguments and evidence, and to acquiesce in the judgment of right reason. The investigation, moreover, should be pursued with the serious earnestness which becomes the greatness of the subject–a subject fraught with such momentous consequences to man. It should be pursued as in the presence of God, and under the solemn sanctions created by a lively sense of his omniscience, and of our accountability to him for the right use of the faculties which he has bestowed.

    In requiring this candor and simplicity of mind in those who would investigate the truth of our religion, Christianity demands nothing more than is readily conceded to every branch of human science. All these have their data, and their axioms; and Christianity, too, has her first principles, the admission of which is essential to any real progress in knowledge. “Christianity,” says Bishop Wilson, “inscribes on the portal of her dominion ‘Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, shall in nowise enter therein.’ Christianity does not profess to convince the perverse and headstrong, to bring irresistible evidence to the daring and profane, to vanquish the proud scorner, and afford evidences from which the careless and perverse cannot possibly escape. This might go to destroy man’s responsibility. All that Christianity professes, is to propose such evidences as may satisfy the meek, the tractable, the candid, the serious inquirer.”

    The present design, however, is not to enter upon any general examination of the evidences upon any general examination of the evidences of Christianity, but to confine the inquiry to the testimony of the Four Evangelists, bringing their narratives to the tests to which other evidence is subjected in human tribunals. The foundation of our religion is a basis of fact–the fact of the birth, ministry, miracles, death, resurrection by the Evangelists as having actually occurred, within their own personal knowledge. Our religion, then, rests on the credit due to these witnesses. Are they worthy of implicit belief, in the matters which they relate? This is the question, in all human tribunals, in regard to persons testifying before them; and we propose to test the veracity of these witnesses, by the same rules and means which are there employed. The importance of the facts testified, and their relations to the affairs of the soul, and the life to come, can make no difference in the principles or the mode of weighing the evidence. It is still the evidence of matters of fact, capable of being seen and known and related, as well by one man as by another. And if the testimony of the Evangelist, supposing it to be relevant and material to the issue in a question of property or of personal right, between man and man, in a court of justice, ought to be believed and have weight; then, upon the like principles, it ought to receive our entire credit here. But if, on the other hand, we should be justified in rejecting it, if there testi