Chabad’s proxy anti-missionary organisation Yad L’Achim argues that Messianic Jewish and Christian missionary activity is wrong because missionaries ‘proselytise’ and target Jews to convert to their religion. Yet Chabad themselves routinely engage in assertive proselytising campaigns.
Yad L’Achim Chabadniks will accuse Messianic Jews of idolatry for our worship of Yeshua of Nazareth as our divine, resurrected Messiah. Yet a large percentage of Chabad’s leaders and followers worship the deceased seventh Lubavitcher Rebbe, Menachem Mendel Schneerson, who died in 1994 as divine, resurrected Messiah, developing a theology which often closely resembles Christianity. Yad L’Achim leader Alex Artovsky is one such example, and Yad L’Achim’s website owner Avraham Biklin is another.
Chabad themselves have argued that Christianity was created ‘by Jews and for Jews’.
So it is very odd to see Chabad-heavy institutions attacking and belittling Messianic Jews.
Much of what Yad L’Achim terms ‘avodah zerah‘ could easily be turned on Chabad-Lubavitch in another context, and frequently is by Orthodox opponents of the Lubavitch messianists.
Yet Yad L’Achim go beyond even targetting missionaries, sending undercover agents to spy on Messianic Jews, coaxing information out of children about their parents, teaming up with Chinese state authorities to ‘fight cults‘, and disrupting Messianic Jewish worship services.
In a robust democracy, Lubavitcher shluchim will be able to hand out their pamphlets and Messianic Jewish missionaries will be able to spread their message without fear of harrassment or intimidation.
Yet it is most bizarre that Chabad-associated institutions such as Yad L’Achim don’t feel confident enough to let their own message speak for itself without also relying on anti-missionary enforcers.
We would welcome voices within Chabad calling for dialogue and understanding with Messianic Jews who follow Yeshua.
We call for a reform of Chabad-controlled outfits like Yad L’Achim, so that extremists do not misrepresent Hasidic faith, or commit chilul hashem.
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<<< In a robust democracy, Lubavitcher shluchim will be able to hand out their pamphlets and Messianic Jewish missionaries will be able to spread their message without fear of harrassment or intimidation.
Exactly, Yeze. This is not a matter of whether anyone else chooses to evangelize his beleifs. It is a matter our respect for OUR human right to religious free speech including conversionary speech.
Your posts often point to the hypocrisy of extremist Jews who proselytize their beliefs whilst condemning us for sharing ours. You are right to make this observation, but do not miss the human rights issue.
The following truth needs to be stressed: If the only people in Israel to proselytize were Christian Jews, we would still have a basic human right to do so, and we don't need the permission of any human government to exercise our rights. The right to evangelize comes from God, not from human government; all governments may do is protect our rights or violate them.
it is time truth come out…no one is a true Jew to God until that one comes to know the Messiah….and not the past claim of the Chabad of Rabbi Schneerson..who did not fulfil Messianic prophecy. Then again they only study the 5 books of Moses so how would they even know. Isaiah 9:6 prophetically from 700bc and still unchanged “Unto us a child is born, a son is given, mighty Allah/God,…the prince of peace/salam.
It is impossible to “proselytize” a Jew to Judaism. Chabad does “proselytize” so much as it encourages less observant Jews to be more pious and observant Jews.Your entire argument is spurious and a non-sequitor!!!
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“In a robust democracy, Lubavitcher shluchim will be able to hand out their pamphlets and Messianic Jewish missionaries will be able to spread their message without fear of harrassment or intimidation.”
In Acts 12 Herod is killed by an angel of the Lord after a blasphemous claim that “This is the voice of a god, not of a man.”
What happened you your “market place of ideas” approach?
Well God sets the rules, and He can make an exception for Himself. The rules for human government is to be tolerant and protect free speech.
Herod was wrong, he wasnt God/Hashem.
Chabad? It is organized and funded by other Jewish people, while they steal the minds of their children and turn them against their own parents…who they claim are not ‘good’ Jews, not glatt kosher enough even for their children to have a passover sedar with. And from their ranks they get their anti other Jews and anti missionaries who fight to save ‘Judaism’ as they proclaim it to be.
The fact here is equal rights gives the Messianics the same right as for the Orthodox their right to spread their missionizing of other ‘Jewish’ people to join their sect, as well as to believe their former rabbi Schneerson is the Messiah.
the point is, we are against that which we know is a threat…the Jewish Scriptures clearly prove that Yeshua/Jesus is the Messiah, and many Orthodox Jewish people have come to know him as the best friend and Messiah, including some rabbis too.
yet the others are determined in religious zealotry to stop anything that opposes them even if it is the truth.
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Elijah has come, Messiah has come; Jesus the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. Messiah is our Pesach Lamb! The Lord He is our righteousness! “And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.” Matt11v14 NIV Elijah has come, i.e. John the Baptist. re: Malachi 4:5
Messiah is now standing at the door ready to return for all of the saints both those who sleep and those who are alive and remain, at the sound of the last trumpet! Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!
Although I do believe in Rabbi Yehoshua being the Moshiach and the Lubavitcher Rebbe certainly not, I have to say I that I understand to a certain level why many (not all!) Chabadniks and other Orthodox Jews are against or having a very hard time with people who call themselves ‘Messianic Jews’. First of all, Judaism as a whole is a Messianic faith. E.g. Moshiach.com states:
“The answer to all these questions is just one word: Mashiach. Mashiach is the light at the end of the tunnel. Mashiach is when G-d is telling us that the reason for which He created the universe will indeed be realized – that goodness will prevail and that our lives can be meaningful. Mashiach is both an integral part of G-d’s plan and an integral part of human life. Without Mashiach, our lives would indeed be meaningless – a never-ending tunnel of darkness, with little awareness of an alternative existence and no hope of ever reaching the light.”
Now far too many people that call themselves Messianic, let alone christian, are not serious in following Torah. Rabbi Yehoshua instructed his talmidim to listen and do what Pharisee leaders said (passed on, oral tradition) (Mat.23). Only about certain Perushim did he say they were hypocrites and thus don’t follow what they DO. Not all of them. Yehoshua stood in Perushi heritage and was not opposed to it. For Him Torah meant Written accompanied by Oral.
Also Talmud Bavli speaks of several types of Perushim, among them the hypocrites Yehoshua referred to. It also states ‘don’t fear the Perushim and non-Perushim, but only the hypocrites who ape the Perushim’ (Sotah 22b).
The practical answer of Messianics to orthodox Judaism should be to take the Jewish tradition serious enough and stop flirting with Christianity (like the trinity dogma). Rabbi Yehoshua was and IS the true Tzaddik. If you parallel Him to the Hasidic meaning and profile of the Tzaddik you’ll see that even according to the rich Hasidic wisdom Yehoshua fits the profile of Moshiach as the True Tzaddik. It’s fascinating! Hashem works through Him but Yehoshua is not G-d and He will never be. He’s the closest to Him though because He is Moshiach and keeper of Ultimate Torah of Old. He is the holy Vessel that Hashem worked through on earth.
But again it’s because of the neglect of halachah (Oral Torah) and flirting with Christianity that Messianics are being persecuted. Think about it…
And about ‘converting’ gentiles to become Noahides is nonsense. They just want them to obey those mitzwot, as Yaakov and Shimon Kepha wanted them to do (Acts 15)… Because they were also very strict pious Jews.
G-d bless you all.
a true Ztadik…he tells his disciples to pick wheat on shabbat, going against the oral law, he uses the excuse that king David eat the Bread from the Mishkan , King David was in hunger life threatening, not the case of jc.. Does a true Ztadik curse a fruit tree because the lack of fruit, does he refer to his own bothers as rippers and snakes ….Cursed is the man who hangs on a tree…for G-d so loved the world he gave his own Torah of truth and whoever belives in his word will not perish..you dont need a jc idol you can have a wonderful relationship with the G-d of Israel both Jew and Gentile you need a little bit of faith no middle man and Hshem can teach you to change your whole life with a righteous life style and to love the L-rd with everthing. ps a true Tzadik would go to hell to save the life of a fellow jew! john 3v16 paints a different story. Moses pleaded for G-d not to destroy his people were jc condemned the Pharisees. Erik are you Jewish?
Gershom, thats a sensitive question in here, people don’t like to
respond, because only a few here are Jews, the rest are
“grafted in” shtik
the true Ztadik is Messiah Yeshua as you twist things Gershom…and try and use oral law…which has many interpretations to suit your already bias conclusion…that G-d failed when the temple was destroyed because we are left with no innocent sacrifice for our sins…therefore Isaiah 52nd and 53rd chapters truth that one would come who would be exalted but first marred more than any man and die as a lamb for our sins…. Means G-d messed up and we have no atonement for our sins.
Yes i am born and raised Jewish..but i was not all Jewish till i came to know the truth of a Messiah…then i came to personally as my best friend know the one i use to curse Yeshua/Jesus the one to be exalted but first marred more than any man= the Messiah of Israel…
I am enjoying a good laugh! Chabad reaches out to JEWS
which is NOT proselytizing. On the other hand, your organization
pretends to be Jewish to seduce Jews into converting, which is a
lie and *some* would consider that dishonorable and
unethical.
Chaya, it would be hysterical, if only it wasn’t so sad that so many
Jews have been duped with this lie and fantasy world. Where people
pretend to be Jews when they are not, and they try to convince
uneducated and vulnerable Jews that its ok to believe in jesus…its such
a jewish thing to do. many Jewish families have been destroyed
over the last 40 years because of this heresy.
Nifty redefinition of the word “outreach” to not mean proselystisation there Chayah. Excellent bit of doublethink! Nice one.
Jews reaching out to Jews are not trying to change their religion as christians do. Jews are trying to help strengthen their Jews faith, unlike christians
who lie and say its jewish to believe in jesus.
Bit harsh Leon, clearly there’s not a hint of proselytisation here!
http://roshpinaproject.com/2009/11/26/beware-proselytising-missionaries-dressed-as-jews/
Actually In Israel most Jews are secularists. So Chabad ARE proselytising to convert them to Chabadnikism.
Encouraging secular Jews to do more mitzvot is not the same as trying to convert them. They are already Jews. Trying to convince more Christians to go to church more often, or stop sinning, or read their bibles more often, is not trying to convert them.
“Encouraging secular Jews to do more mitzvot is not the same as trying to convert them. They are already Jews”.
If they are ALREADY Jews then why not leave them alone then?
a good laugh? Jonah a Jew reached out to gentiles for the G-d of Israel….and i covered before the truth about Chabad and their false claimed Messiah Rabbi Schneerson.
A true Jew believes the Jewish Scriptures…fact is…the only true Jew is a Messianic Jew…try reading some of the entries i quoted our Jewish
Scriptures in…and go back to the Hebrew too..as in Isaiah 9:6&7th verses “He is the child born, the son given, mighty G-d, ….the prince of peace/shalom.”
I just want you all to know that I can’t STAND YOU Evangelical Christians who claim to be Jews! “Messianic Jews” robbed me of my Jewish upbringing. Luckily, I am not an idiot, stopped believing in magical nonsense, and am now raising my children as Jews.
I can tell you all, having been raised in a house where my Jewish parents decided to follow “Yeshuah,” and having ceased trying to believe in Jesus about 20 years ago, that Judaism and Christianity are very, very different religions, and there is nothing Jewish about Messianics.
Also, stop slandering Chabad. Most Chabadnics are very nice people who just want to encourage Jews to do mizvot. Yes, there are some Lubavich who thought/think that the Rebbe was Moshiach or a kind of Moshiach, but they are not out preaching that people should stop being Jews and start praying to the Rebbe. They are also a minority. Christains have a really, really hard time dealing with nuance and subtlety. They deny and gray, and see the world as a simplistic, cartoonish struggle of Good Versus Evil.
BTW–I am not talking about the Christianity of the “love thy neighbor” and “help the downtrodden.” I am speaking of Evangelical/Dominist/ Literal interpretation types.
Hannah hi. Your “I am not talking about the Christianity of the “love thy neighbor” and “help the downtrodden.” I am speaking of Evangelical/Dominist/ Literal interpretation types.”
Does this mean that you don’t interpret the Torah in a literal way; for example, the revelation at Sinai?
bog, a christian is a christian, they all believe in jesus as god and
the trinity; so to try to make a certain group of c hristians more
jew friendly is a waste of time with ex-messianics; we know the
drill..
A very good summary of the difference would be the introductory chapter to “American Fascists” by Chris Hedges.
There are Christians who don’t believe in a literal interpretation of every word of the “Bible.” There are Christians who aren’t trying to convert Jews.
I am not a Christian AT ALL. Whether or not I believe in a “literal” interpretation of Torah is irrelevant.
Hannah, Glad to hear you escaped and maybe this will happen
to my relatives as well.
I hope so also. I have three siblings. Two are secular atheists with no children and one is raising her 5 kids as “Messianic Jews” with her gentile husband. My parents also converted 4 out of 5 of my mothers siblings.
Messianic Judaism is a real threat to the future of Judaism. I do not take it lightly.
“Also, stop slandering Chabad. Most Chabadnics are very nice people who just want to encourage Jews to do mizvot.”
Who ‘slandered’ Chabad, Hannah? I quite agree that most Chabadniks are v nice people, I have had personal experience of the kindness of several. But why should that stop anyone pointing out the unashamedly messianist strand within Chabad thought?
http://roshpinaproject.com/2011/04/26/moshiachs-address/
Who ‘slandered’ Chabad, Hannah? I quite agree that most Chabadniks are v nice people, I have had personal experience of the kindness of several. But why should that stop anyone pointing out the unashamedly messianist strand within Chabad thought?
Dov you focus on Chabad because you cannot respond to Jews who
know what a fake this so called messianic judaism is and how its
nothing more than christianity wrapped in a tallis and full of lies
and deceit, you have no other recourse but to try to level the playing
field, but it doesn’t work…we ex messianics know the truth and
are willing to let our jewish people know what you really are
“you have no other recourse but to try to level the playing field”
Not so Bubby – we make arguments based on the text too – e.g. here –
http://roshpinaproject.com/2010/09/24/isaiah-53-i-see-jesus-eisegesis-or-exegesis-who-is-the-suffering-servant/#comments
and we are still waiting for any comments of substance in reply from Moshe, Anon, or indeed your good self.
Hope you had a good Pesach, by the way.
I use the word “slandering,” because you dredge up the most messianists of Chabad to indict a community of thousands. As you are well aware, there is criticism within the Jewish community of this strand of Chabad (e.g. DovBear). Your argument seems to be : “We are persecuted by Chabad and others who don’t want us to proselytize. But hey, looky, some nutty Lubavitchers believe their dead Rebbe was Moshiach. Aren’t you all being hypocritical?”
If Lubavitchers started trying to convince people that they no longer needed to perform mitvos, but instead let their the Rebbe into their hearts, and all would be magically forgiven, there would be similar outrage, you can be assured. If there were some 2,000 years of history in which Lubavitchers committed widespread murder in the name of their religion, you could be assures, there would be similar outrage.
and we are still waiting for any comments of substance in reply from Moshe, Anon, or indeed your good self.
Hope you had a good Pesach, by the way.
Dov, you have had multitudes of comments of substance. you see
that you need to justify what you believe, and do not want to
“be confused” with the facts. I hope someday you come to your senses.
Yes it was a good Pesach and as usual, I cannot look at Matzoh now
for another year! Hope yours was good as well.
Bubby none of you have said why you disagree with Gev’s very detailed exegetical work there – there are just comments on the comments! Why not start a trend and say where you think there are flaws in his argument?
My Pesach was good thanks, trying to finish off the left-over matzoh before they go stale.
Dov I think like a Jew, not a Christian, a Jew doesn’t have to be
a Exegetical scholar to know jesus is a hoax for Jews.
Bubby, I think that a Jew does indeed have to be an exegetical scholar (= very biblically knowledgeable) to be certain that Jesus is NOT the Messiah. That is why – until such an exegetical scholar (it seems that you don’t [want to] fit the bill) can refute Gev, I think you should perhaps tread more carefully.
bography,
Don’t get confused. Don’t over-complicate.
There is no exegetical argument between Judaism and Christianity in Isaiah. The text clearly identifies, without exegesis, whom the suffering servant is. The difference between Judaism and Christianity turns on which one follows the plain text of the word of G-d.
Here’s the plain text:
* 41:8–”But thou, Israel, art My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen…”
* 43:1–”But now thus saith the L-rd that created thee, O Jacob, and He that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art Mine.”
* 44:1–”Yet now hear, O Jacob My servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen:”
* 44:21–”Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for thou art My servant: I have formed thee; thou art My servant: O Israel, thou shalt not be forgotten of me.”
* 45:4–”For Jacob My servant’s sake, and Israel Mine elect…”
* 49:3–”Thou art My servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.”
Jew demonstrate their unflinching commitment to the word of G-d by accepting that the suffering servant in Isaiah is Israel. Christians demonstrate their unflinching commitment to Jesus worship by presumptuously insisting that G-d got it wrong in Isaiah, and that really, really, the suffering servant was Jesus, who was never once mentioned in all of the Book of Isaiah.
This is not a matter of exegesis. Don’t get confused. It’s about trusting the word of G-d. Jews do it, missionaries don’t.
Google translate: I can’t actually find any flaws in Gev’s argument, it’s wrong because I say it’s wrong.
That is a wonderful argument: I have concocted a string of unrelated “Bible verses” about which I have already determined leads to the conclusion that a traveling preacher was the Messiah. Despite the obvious facts that there is not peace on earth and people are not free, if you refuse to take the time to refute my nonsensically strung-together argument, I am just right. Now let this magic man into your heart and you will no longer have to worry about 3,000 years of ethnic and religious history. My magic man has set you free.
OK Hannah for the second (or maybe third) time: can you please say, specifically, why you disagree with Gev’s post about Isaiah 53?
OK–I will have to wade through the gobbeldy gook sometime when I have more time, as I am sure it is internally inconsistent. Honestly, I can’t make much sense out of it. But it seems to mean that there is a description of an individual in an Isaiah 53 prophecy and that this description could fit Jesus of Nazareth. To go from there to Jesus is this person, let alone Jesus is the Messiah is an unjustified leap of logic.
If you think Jesus is your Messiah, good for you. If you find inspiration in his life and teachings, great. Stop trying to convince other Jews that Christianity = Judaism, and stop trying to convince other people that you are a practicing Jew.
However, what difference does it make? It is a statement of faith and I have no faith in it. Millions of people believe that the Koran is 100% true also, and I am not going to take the time to “disprove” them. I do not begrudge them their faith. I have never encountered a Muslim who tried to convert me.
@Hannah “I have never encountered a Muslim who tried to convert me.”
Try these then:
That dude’s stepbrother never tried to convert me either.
shabbat shalom, Hannah
“as I am sure it is internally inconsistent.”
Please let me know where – easiest if you post comments on that thread, not here. Take your time, no hurry. Hope you have a nice rest of the day.
@Hannah “That dude’s stepbrother never tried to convert me either.”
Go to Tower Hamlets and that would soon change!
Bubby, Hannah,
Moshe makes a very good demonstrating what you can do when you “string together” random verses from Tanakh.
http://www.messiahtruth.com/discovery.html
enjoy!!!
Michael,
Do you really think he “makes a very good demonstrating” [sic]?
Even just a cursory glance at a website like this will tell you what a sensational, hysterical buffoon and a conspiracy theorist Moshe Shulman is.
Just look at his title statement on his website. It’s something along the lines of “all” evangelical Christians want to destroy Jews through assimilation, or very close to that. What a paranoid delusional smoke screen.
Because, of course, there are no supporters of Israel or of Jews among American Evangelical Christianity at all, right? In fact, there are no well-meaning friends, or true stories of transformed lives in the world at all. It’s all an evil plot to overthrow us. (flash image of Mike Myers sporting a bald head while picking his teeth with his pinky)
What’s really not amusing at all, is that Evangelical donations may be – in a very real, even if roundabout, way – one of the sources of consistent income for sites like Moshe Shulman’s – which he and others like him gladly receive with a *%$-eating grin in one hand, while backstabbing clueless, but well-meaning Christians with the other. Now that’s what I call irony.
Paul,
I like your contribution to RPP, but in this case you are flat wrong, and you are demonstrating a complete lack of knowledge in things Jewish…BTW, are you Jewish?
There is a clear and dangarous threat of assimilation to the Jewish community, it cannot be denied. It is very important to some Jews and not so important to other Jews. since there are not many Jews who marry Muslims, but many who marry Christians, the worry (warrant or not) is there and it is lagitinate.
The charge that evangelical donations are a source of income to sites like Moshe’s is just laughable and shows lack of knowledge and understanding on your part. I duke it with Moshe all the time, but I will not openly embarrass myself chrging him with this.
I am a believer, I like and aggree with much of what the evangelical cummunity has to offer, but I would watch for not to offend non-believing Jews in an anti-semitic way that you put it.
Hey Dan Benzvi,
Sincerely and earnestly appreciate your post. I can assure you that I did not make this comment about funding out of ignorance. I know first hand (this means through personal introduction) of Jewish believers (although not in Yeshua) who live here in the Land, and have been funding many of their outreach projects for years from donations by Evangelical Christian organizations. One of these – a more distant acquaintance – has literally turned around and scoffed at those very same Evangelicals he continues to take donations from, referring to them as ‘gullible’. The irony of that jest on his part is that he is, of course, right on the money. They are gullible. This very same person has also been responsible for not lifting a finger to assist a local group of chasidei Yeshua, who under their rights and privileges due them under the law here in Israel, seek only to fellowship with other believers in Yeshua. They are not ‘missionaries,’ but Israeli citizens and visiting friends of Israel who support the Jewish state (blindly).
As for my linking the polemic on Moshe S.’s site to this kind of lack of integrity – although it may be a stretch, I don’t really think my analogy is completely unfair. Hear me out. I do appreciate your warning, and do want to be clear that I did not state Moshe is in fact doing this. I drew an analogy between his type of sensational hate speech, and the same kind of talk you hear coming from camps here in the Land who do not serve in the army, do not work, but who are funded by Israeli taxpayer money and – yes (!) – sometimes even the very Christian Evangelical organizations they claim to hate with a fury. This is not second-hand information.
I’m confused, though, by your statement that I demonstrate a lack of knowledge of things Jewish, and a “complete” one at that. You seem to be referring to my taking issue with the matter of assimilation. If that’s what you meant, again, I can assure you I’ve heard this fear by many of my own family members, and even from close (Jewish) friends who are followers of Yeshua. In a recent conversation with this brother, he reminded me, “… but surely there are some aspects of Judaism we must preserve as Jews, Paul; if we do not, what is it that makes us Jewish at all?’
I didn’t presume to instruct him, as he is a thinking person and a solid believer. But the point I made with him in response to his rhetorical query is one I like to make with any one of us (Jew or gentile) struggling with this issue: “Remember, we are not made perfect – either Jew or gentile – by our ethnicity, our ability to perform mitzvot, or our culture. We are made perfect by a person – Yeshua, who was the perfect Jew. In him and him alone are we truly “Jewish” – made so by his perfect Jewishness, holiness and righteousness. We are not in danger of being assimilated into anything false if we are in him and he is in us.”
As for my snap judgment of Moshe’s site – it is based solely on that absurd “Chicken Messiah” analogy he has plastered all over his page, which is the laborious, fruitless undertaking of someone guilty of the very thing he accuses his imaginary “missionary” target of: muddying the waters, silver-tonged smoke screens and sensational threats. What is flashing in a banner on his MT site, as well, verges on (if not crosses the line into blatant) bigotry. If I, as one of his own, cannot call him out on such embarrassing nonsense without embarrassing myself, as you say, then what am I to make of the dichotomy between Proverbs 26:4 and 26:5? Am I an antisemitic fool if I remain silent and do not object to his polemic, or am I an antisemitic fool if I speak up? Of course, any Jew who receives Yeshua must be a ‘missionary’, a turncoat, and an antisemite anyway, right? Or at least weak-minded for allowing myself to be “converted” …
Sorry for the tone here if it feels sarcastic – just passionate about this, I guess.
Joseph and Gev,
I sent a message to the Rosh Pina Project gmail account, did you receive it?
The first paragraph talks about christians trying to convert Jews.
Jewish people have a Yetzer Tov, already on a higher level than any gentile. so whether we like it or not the worst Jew is better than the best non Jew.
The difference is the Yetzer Tov, a Jew can transform evil into Mitzvahs and return to Hashem through prayer, Teshuva and good deeds at any time.
Oh well at least that doesn’t sound racist in any way steve!
Well i’ sure the 99%+ of the world who aren’t Jewish will be thrilled with that assessment Steve!
Dov,
Why ?
Does it stop anyone serving G-d.
Can you really not see how racist it sounds Stevo?
I’m not Jewish.
The truth that Jewish people are closer to G-d is in the Torah.
“I” serve G-d and respect his righteous ones, G-d is Judge of all our deeds.
we talk about mens rules…where is the scripture for it…Jonah went to the goyim/gentiles to share the truth. It goes back to Genesis 3:15 of the one that will crush satan..the Messiah wins in the end. and all that come to Him win today…not Rabbi Schneerson who the Chabad claimed was the Messiah…for they do not study prophecy…Isaiah 52:13=-53:12 Messiah will be exaulted but first marred more than any man. And he will be rejected and die as a lamb for our sins.
david,
Since you based your comment on scriptures, we should understand them clearly.
First, G-d directly went to Jonah and specifically instructed him to travel to the people particularly of Nineveh (and not to the gentiles in general) with a particular message. Jonah was a prophet, and in the end did what he was told to do by G-d, even though he didn’t understand why it was a worthwhile endeavor. We have to appreciate the profound difference between a prophet reluctantly following direct orders from G-d in a particular circumstance versus Christian missionaries who have no instructions from G-d and yet make it their business to pester everyone with their beliefs. Jews have no analogous urge or purpose akin to the evangelical Christian missionary.
Second, Gen. 3:15 is a statement by G-d that He is one, not three, who refers to Himself as “I” rather than “we”. In the verse, G-d is addressing Eve and the serpent in the Garden of Eden and the enmity He would place between their progeny; neither Satan nor the messiah is mentioned at all, nor are Satan or the messiah topically relevant to the verse. Perhaps you should read Genesis from start to finish to understand chapter 3 there, instead of cherry picking verses out of context and misrepresenting them as concurring with the “new testament”.
The servant songs of Isaiah are quite clear on whom the suffering servant is. It’s not Jesus, or even the messiah, but G-d’s chosen, the Jewish people. Again, perhaps if you’d read the whole Book of Isaiah, instead of the missionary bumper sticker selections Christian bibles intentionally mis-translate, you’d have a better handle on the meaning of the verses you cited in vain to shore up your irredeemably unsalvageable arguments.
Hı dc,
Interestıng to note that the people of nınveh repent wıthout a blood sacrıfıce (just whıle we’re on the subject of jonah
)
Russ there are more than one David on here. The comment below was made buy a different David. Note: my comments where my name David Cook will be in blue and click on it to go to a website or will say adventofmessiah to my blog. But both will show my picture as here on this comment.
David: “we talk about mens rules…where is the scripture for it…Jonah went to the goyim/gentiles to share the truth. It goes back to Genesis 3:15 of the one that will crush satan..the Messiah wins in the end. and all that come to Him win today…not Rabbi Schneerson who the Chabad claimed was the Messiah…for they do not study prophecy…Isaiah 52:13=-53:12 Messiah will be exaulted but first marred more than any man. And he will be rejected and die as a lamb for our sins.”
But here is my response; the saints in the TaNaKh i.e. (both gentiles and Jews) those who had repentance from sin and faith in God for righteousness who believed God’s revelation given to them and looked forward to when God would keep his promise to atone for sin through the Moshiach (Daniel 9:24-26, Isaiah 53, Psalms 22).
Look at the amazing profession of Job (the righteous goy)
25″As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives,
And at the last He will take His stand on the earth.
26″Even after my skin is destroyed,
Yet from my flesh I shall see God;
27Whom I myself shall behold,
And whom my eyes will see and not another.
Job 19:25 NASB
(Paul explains more in Romans 4 about gentile Abram and Jewish David).
“MY REDEEMER LIVES” Nicole C. Mullen live in Cincinnati, OH http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKrBqD7uhBM
Hı DC
Apologıes for the confusıon.
Russ
David your interpretation of Genesis 3:15 as well as Isaiah 53 is correct; both are prophecies of the Moshiach.
Here in Torah written by Moshe we see the first prophecy of Moshiach.
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”
Genesis 3:15 NIV
The Seed of the Woman (born of a virgin Isaiah 7:14) whose Father is God Almighty is the Moshiach; Yeshua, the Son of the living God.
The serpent did indeed strike the heel of Yeshua on the cross with by Roman nail that pierced His flesh.
Yet, Yeshua did crush the serpent’s head at the cross Yeshua atoned for our sins as both Isaiah (53:5-6) and Daniel (9:24-26) wrote about. Sin introduced by the serpent through temptation of Eve and Adam which brought about physical death and spiritual death to all men was atoned for on the cross by Yeahua for all who would believe and receive Him.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
Isaiah 53:5-6 NIV
But you are just inserting the word “Yeshuah” in there. I read those passages and I no more see Jesus than I see Martin Luther King.
The second paragraph in the original post says Christianity is profoundly Jewish.
Perhaps you could argue this up until the council of Nicia in (323 AD) but after that it became a Roman religion filled with idol worship.
I agree with you, Steve. The issue is what the faith of the Jewish believers in Yeshua became once it was commandeered by the Romans, completely remixed, edited and added to. Like you said, before that, you could easily argue that in was profoundly Jewish.
Final Score:
Judaism: 613
Xtianity : 0
Abraham, I’m not sure what you’re basing the score on (besides Mitzvot?) but to use your sports analogy, the team masquerading as “Xtianity” for the last few thousand years is only the halftime show (for which, I humbly apologize) and they’ve completely ignored the playbook, but the Messiah is about to return for the second half, so hold off on tallying the score just yet.
Luke your messiah struck out…he is not coming back
And your namesake Abraham was credited with righteousness before one of them was instituted (Gen 15:6). What does that tell you about the 613?
So Xianity = Anarchy?
Hey Joseph. I’m not sure if you’re responding to me, but if you are, no, Xtianity does not = anarchy, in a word. But it does operate as an organization without a leader more often than not, so whatever you want to call that. It certainly is “lawless” according to Torah (however varying in infractions based on your understanding/views of Torah application to goyim, of course) and utilizing a sports analogy again, it has provided the world a hideous halftime show for the last couple thousand years (thanks to the Romans and their quarterback, Constantine). Man, I really hate sports analogies.
Responding to the guy who said Judaism 613, Xtianity 0.
Gotcha. See, why can’t I just shut up and wait 10 minutes?
It is still a valuable comment you made. Thanks!
Yeah, Luke, your analogy works. Super cool, thanks. Mind if I use it (smile)?
Thanks, Joseph.
And sure, Paul. Have at it. Just beware that “bubby” has a pretty compelling argument against it.
Great, thanks.
In my experience, bubby, although game for superficial banter and one-liners every once in a while, hasn’t thought through very many of the things he states before posting them. Take for instance this “strike out” idea. The only think compelling about it, really, is the sports analogy – which made me grin. The argument itself is one of faith. It is not based on his thorough, thoughtful analysis of the receptive history of the early church or the founders’ reports. Anybody can do what bubby has done. You don’t have to be any kind of particular fish to swim downstream with the rest. It takes a crazy salmon to leap upstream against the rapids. And that’s hard work in today’s exhausting global culture and information age. No wonder Paul admonished us over and over to “endure.” The scripture said that in the “latter” age (whenever that is; each age has had its valid reasons for claiming it was), if it were at all possible, even the very elect would fall away under a “strong” delusion. Often, that atmosphere is tangible living in the land – thick enough to cut with a butter knife. “bubby” thinks, for instance, that anyone posing an honest question is “trying to do” something to trip him up. Just think about the paranoia of that.
Anyway …
i am a Jew…yet Christian means a follower of the Messiah…if Yeshua is the Messiah…only non Jews would not follow him…check my remarks previous too please thanks
you mentioned Bubby/Bubbie being against some things about Messiah, well my Bubbie on my mom’s side..is a very strong believer in Messiah…and passed to the next world..so i will see her in heaven, and she prayed with me reading Isaiah 53 to come to know Yeshua/Jesus personally…
she was burried in a Jewish cemetary, and i was banned from the funeral go figure…she read the bible till the day she died..and told me “David we have to tell our people about Messiah Jesus.”
Right, and my Bubbie is burning in hell because she didn’t ask Jesus to come live in her heart. Of course, she observed Mitzvot, was kind to people, raised 6 children, and was an overall sweet woman. But she is in hell. Nice Messiah.
hannah,
Okay, you’re sarcasm is understandable if Yeshua is – without any doubt whatsoever – not the Messiah. Then you’d have great reason to scoff at such nonsensical religion.
However, if – without any doubt whatsoever – Yeshua is the Messiah Jeremiah’s new covenant promise for Israel claims he is, then you are also right to take up your beef with him, personally. If he is Messiah, did he do everything in his power to reach out to your bubbie with all his heart? Did he meet her every day in her Mizvot and reveal himself to her as the true Messiah? If he did, and she still refused to receive him, what’s your beef with him? Your sarcasm (and hidden anger) is based on the assumption that it’s the mitzvot that justify us before God. But what if we need more than our own goodness and mitzvot? What if we need absolute holiness? Who can provide the bridge we need between us – as fallen from the Garden – and an all-perfect, absolutely holy God?
Paul -
If a Messiah appeared to my Bubbie and she ignored it than either she was stupid or wicked. So I guess she deserves to burn in hell.
My anger is not hidden. I am overtly angry at Christians who try to convert Jews. I don’t like you all and I think you are doing harm. You harmed my family when you converted my parents.
You offer no proof of your beliefs beyond your beliefs. You believe them because they are your beliefs. How anyone can ever come to the conclusion that Jesus is the Moshiach is beyond me. I have read the Isaiah “proofs” a number of times and they make no sense whatsoever to me. There is no mention of Jesus whatsoever.
So, Hannah, you mean to tell us that your parents were just plain stupid for letting themselves to be converted with no evidence?
to Paul. When we reach a conclusion before we will examine the issue open minded and heart, is that smart?..you dont know if your Bubbie passed on believing in Yeshua/Jesus or not.
My Zadie from my mothers side..i believe came to know the messiah in his last few days.
My mom once told me that Jesus was a liar and not to believe in him. Now He is my best friend and my leacer Messiah.
“My anger is not hidden. I am overtly angry at Christians who try to convert Jews.”
Hannah, although it was an admittedly weak attempt, I was trying to be kind. Your anger is glaring.
But your whole approach is utterly confusing. You seem to be working from the premise that people can be “converted” in the first place. I don’t personally think there is such a thing at all as “conversion” in the sense you seem to be using it here in reference to your parents having been “converted” by someone. It’s like there’s some evil trick involved or something.
I can’t be sure of this, since I don’t know you, but judging on the surface from the way and the content of the things you have written, you may be swimming along with this idea that to “convert” a Jewish soul is “murder.” Correct me if I’m wrong. Your writing at least sounds this way.
If so, that idea presumes that the Jewish soul is ignorant, or at least undiscerning, and certainly not free. In fact, in the case of your parents, it
throws one of the greatest commands of Moses to the dogs: “honor your father and mother”, which one might start doing by presuming they are not forever tethered to an ongoing legacy of culture and tradition, but, as Jews (like any other human being), can check such things, think for themselves, and take them to task if need be.
As for the Isaiah 53 passages, you are hinging the issue upon one of the most disputed passages in all of scripture. Some say it’s clear as day. Others join you in saying it is simply not there at all. Why fret? If you’re really interested in knowing what’s behind your parents’ decision, talk it out with them. Tell them you’re angry about their crazy decision. But don’t stress over it.
You’re wrong, by the way, about me being a part of that “you all” group you don’t like. Although I may not be convinced that there is such a thing at all as so-called “missionaries” kidnapping souls with evil tricks and silver tongues, I personally also just don’t believe any person can be “talked into” believing anything at all.
To use an analogy I made on another thread, I’d explain it more with this question: Does the caterpillar truly morph into the butterfly, or does it disappear into its hidden chamber of discussion and allow itself to be converted from caterpillarism to butterflyism? Imagine the outrage of the other caterpillars upon seeing one of their own fluttering about: ‘I mean, who in hell does that caterpillar thing she is, anyway? What an insult to the rest of us!’ ‘Nu, what can we do?’ ‘Who is responsible for converting her?’ ‘It must be plot to destroy all caterpillars by assimilating us into butterflyism. It is harmful and must be stopped!’
Forgive me for paraphrasing you. I’m not mocking. Just flipping the script. Maybe that way you can hear a tiny bit of what your voice sounds like when you write the way you do. Also not trying to insult you with the somewhat childish analogy. I’ve read a few of your posts and they are intelligently articulated. Just using the simplest image I can conjure to describe the experience.
“But you are just inserting the word “Yeshuah” in there. I read those passages and I no more see Jesus than I see Martin Luther King.”
At least you admit that the passage speaks of an Individual and not of the nation of israel, do you?
Texts can be metaphorical and literal at the same time. The passage may be about an individual and it may be about the nation of Israel. It may be about both. Literature is like that. I simply do not see how it leads to the conclusion that Jesus is the Moshiach.
Hannah,
Here is the difference: You believe that the Tanach is literature, I believe it is the word of God…..
I know why my parents converted. They were troubled. They were targeted. They were willing victims. I don’t believe in soul-stealing or any such nonsense. I believe that evangelical Christians prey of the vulnerable. My parents’ belief if Jesus has no discernible connection to reality. I don’t need to ask them about it, because I was there. I lived with them for 10+ years post-conversion.
The butterfly analogy doesn’t hold up. A very group of evangelicals specifically targeted my parents. No outside entity targets caterpillars to become butterflies.
I hear what my voice sounds like: dismissive and angry. I missed out on a major part of my Jewish inheritance, therefore I am angry. I am dismissive, because the “logic” behind a belief that Jesus is the Messiah is nonsense, yet is repeated as naseum.
Pleasantly blown away by your transparency here, Hannah. Envy you in that (not jeeringly).
I bring the butterfly analogy to make a very important point: A caterpillar cannot become a butterfly through debate, trickery, guilt-tripping or sadomasochistic victimization. Becoming a butterfly is part of a creative process that only God can perform. He is the “outside entity” you say is not there.
I mean it sincerely when I say I appreciate your anger, but is simply nothing short of bigotry to characterize all of Evangelical Christianity with the broad-brush accusation that they are “predatory.” Even though you deny it, you are saying that Christians are ravenous tricksters who in effect “murdered” your parents’ souls; what else does “prey[ing] of [sic] the vulnerable” then mean, if not that all Christians are bloodthirsty werewolves with a voracious appetite for stragglers, the weak and the small?
You’re not giving either your parents, or anyone who claims to have encountered the Maschiach on the road to Damascus much credit. Who are we to say your parents didn’t truly have this experience? No “missionary” even with the slickest presentation can counterfeit such an experience. Either God himself pursued your parents with an everlasting love, and their faith is real, or they’re faking it. In either case, it doesn’t make sense to blame the one’s who told them this – as if they are vacuum salesmen who pass of cheap junk as quality, only to have it break down a month before teh warranty wears out.
But I don’t understand the “logic” that you say is nonsense. What do you (or were you raised to) believe the role of Messiah is, actually? (real question here, not rhetorical)
This is a website dedicated to evangelical Christians who target Jews for conversion. I am talking about that group of people. Not all people who call or call themselves Christians.
Nope–I don’t give anyone who claims to have encountered Jesus much credit. I think it is self-delusion.
My belief in the role of Moshiach has no bearing on the teas-leaves and chicken bone readings that are turned into text-based proof of Jesus as the Moshiach.
Nice to see the level of respect you give to an other belief is plain for all to read here hannah!
Preying on the vulnerable …. yes werewolves. Clearly. The same logic that gets you from Isaiah to Jesus.
I am transparent, because I am not trying to be anything else. I DO NOT LIKE CHRISTIANS WHO TRY TO CONVERT JEWS.
Who are you trying to convert to your beliefs now? You are not forced to come to this blog, you are here of your own choice.
Yes I’d echo that.
We wouldn’t care if every anti-Messianic left RPP tomorrow. Of course it’s good to discuss with people of opposite opinions, but this is primarily a Messianic blog for Messianic Jews and friends.
We discuss issues vital and relevant to Jewish believers in the Diaspora and in Eretz Israel. If other people are interested, great.
But if you come on to RPP as a visitor, when no-one asked you to, and you think we are trying to convert you(!), that takes chutzpah.
If you don’t like what you read then go away, don’t push the stats up on RPP and raise the blog’s image as a place for religious debate, by sticking around and engaging in religious debate.
Messianic Jews have a right to blog about what we like, just as Haredi and Modern Orthodox and Reconstructionist Jews do, without being accused of launching an obsessive campaign to win converts.
To suggest otherwise is a nasty form of bigotry and prejudice.
If, however, you can respect the fact that Messianic Jews have as much right to express an opinion on theology as any other Jews do, you are welcome to join in our discussions.
So your parents are ‘kind-of’ faking it then. They’re faking themselves out. But you, being the Vulcanesque epitome of logic in person, will never fall for such superstitious nonsense. Certainly anything we cannot logically perceive must not really be happening.
Fairly cynical approach to the world. Then there is no infatuation, no ‘miracle’ when a baby is born, no subjective reality at all? There is only ‘objective’ reality, which is measurable, tangible by way of the six senses, encounter-able (is this a word?) here and now … ? Surely nothing is really there that I cannot perceive with my eyes, correct? Like – allegiance – for instance? How does one empirically measure the tea-leaf belief in such an abstract concept? Or what about loneliness, mere balderdash, I suppose?
It sounds to me like your beef isn’t with Jesus, per se. You just don’t like the pink unicorn argument at all. I think that’s actually a valid argument. As long as you are prepared to levy the ‘objectively’ relative measure of disrespect and vitriol at Buddhists. But then again, it wasn’t Buddhists who lay in wait, ready to pounce on your unsuspecting parents. Those are peaceful types who do not victimize the weak or indoctrinate the young.
Well, then, according to you a willing victim is a stupid victim because he/she were willing to be victimised. a wise person would not go that way.
Someone who believes in something that is not real is not sane. Yet you say the same thing about your parents when you say: “…Belief in Jesus has no discerible connection to reality…”
Willing does not necessarily equal stupid, though they may coexist.
Sane people believe in things that are not real all the time.
My parents belief in Jesus has no discernible connection to reality. They have maintained their beliefs as their lives have slowly gone down the toilet.
Paul,
My parents are delusional. You are going to have to take my word for it, because I know them, and you don’t.
Belief in things beyond logic is not only a universal human trait, but it makes life bearable. Certainly I believe and believe in scads of non-logical ideas/concepts etc..
Trying to “prove” that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah through in text-based logical manner in, so far as I have ever seen, tantamount to reading teas leaves and chicken bones.
By beef is not with Jesus. My beef is with Christians who like to convert Jews and who insist that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah.
“Christians who like to convert Jews”
Impossible. It is factually impossible – actually according to Christian doctrine – to “convert” anyone. That is the point of my caterpillar analogy above. Either the person yields to God’s prodding, or they do not. No amount of “insisting” by anyone that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah can “trick” anyone. Take yourself, for instance. Even after living with your parents for ten years you are not falling for any of this nonsense. Nice work.
Of course I am in absolutely no position to judge whether or not your parents are delusional – and I wouldn’t presume. I’ll take your word for it. What I do feel I am beginning to get a sense of, however, is the fact that you are not as objective and fair as you make yourself out to be. This website, for instance, is not run by people trying to ram Jesus down your throat. What hogwash. You came here and have been posting angry comments for some time. What’s your deal? Are you saying that you were quietly surfing the web, minding your own business, when suddenly, BAM! Rosh Pina Project came flying into your face, accosting your intellectual sensibilities? Or perhaps the Occam’s Razor approach is a more level-headed explanation for what you’re doing here: You’ve got a chip on your shoulder since your parents betrayed their own heritage and culture, and now you’re here to get some payback. Sound fair enough? If that’s not you, my apologies. But if it is, I actually think it’s cool anyway. I mean, what do you think I’m doing here? I’m processing the trauma of watching maniacal, raging lunatic Haredi verbally (and physically) accost some quiet neighbors three days a week for the past 7 (!) years. It’s a filthy display of indignity. They are unscrupulous, chronic liars, with an entirely bigoted agenda, no taste for dialogue, and a xenophobia that surges through the marrow. It is shameful to watch such people call themselves Jewish, when we know that God’s aim has always been to include goyim. But never mind. I’m sure I’ll get over it.
Do you not think there are Haredi or even Chabad who are simply angry, tireless, ruthless missionaries, on the warpath to slander and bear false witness – anything they can do to keep out the filthy “goyim”? Doesn’t ring a bell at all? Never seen or heard of any such thing? Not that it matters.
Joseph and Gev,
I sent an email to the Rosh Pina Project gmail account, did you receive it?
I’ll check 2m, commenting via mobile atm, thanks Paul.
From the main article–
We call for a reform of Chabad-controlled outfits like Yad L’Achim, so that extremists do not misrepresent Hasidic faith, or commit chilul hashem.
Yet you ask–
Do you not think there are Haredi or even Chabad who are simply angry, tireless, ruthless missionaries, on the warpath to slander and bear false witness – anything they can do to keep out the filthy “goyim”?
Did your muscles tighten when you wrote that? If a person is at peace with something, he can address criticism calmly. Why can’t the leaders of the Haredi? Please, please work for tolerance. Otherwise there can be no peace to Israel.
Joseph,
Okay, thanks, bro.
Shabbat Shalom.
Ken Thomas,
Sorry, bro, missed your post. Did my muscles tighten? What?
I think I’m getting your meaning, because your tone is nice. But, in all honest, Ken, what you’ve written here sounds a little self righteous and inexperienced. Do you live in Israel? Just asking. Maybe you do, and you are a die-hard pacifist.
What I’m talking about it the tightrope walk between Proverbs 26:4 and 26:5. The writer of Proverbs presents a real human dilemma. You are oversimplifying this dilemma, in my view. There are times to remain “silent as a lamb.” And there are times to seize the day, for we were brought here “for such a time as this.” The trick lies in finding that balanced wisdom of Esther.
As for the Haredi lunatics who have been taking pictures of my friends children, relatives, friends, taking down license plate numbers, spitting on passers by, using cell phone networking to rally flash mob scenes, and even paying off the police, it is time to speak out against them. They are way out of line, totally in violation of Israeli law, as well as of Torah. You do not write as someone who has experienced, over time, how this kind of lawlessness can destroy a community – and how sometimes ‘you’ will be the one God is demanding to speak up.
Hannah,
Your parents will always be Jewish, you need to accept that everything comes from G-d and work on your Emuna.
Please remember that anger is the same as idol worship, turn to Hashem completely.
” They have maintained their beliefs as their lives have slowly gone down the toilet.”
So, does it mean that your life is just up there and wonderful and keep climbing up only because you come here and trying to bash us…..
Equal weights and measures…..
Sheesh, guys. I’ll leave and let you get back to loving yeshuah and bashing Chabad.
You think we bash Chabad, but surely you must be aware how closely Chabad theology resembles early Christianity.
If we point this out, you think we are bashing Chabad.
Joseph,
The reason early Christianity seems like chabad is that the proverbs, the sermon on the mount and the epistle of James were given by a Tzaddikum called James the Just.
In my humble opinion everything else is unreliable.
בס”ד
I agree with Chanah on her observation of very obvious Chabad bashing.at this site — and just about everything else she has written. I have had the same visceral reactions to Evangelical Christians who pose as “messianic Jews” in order to convert Jews to — Evangelical Christianity. And their goes another Jewish family…lost to the Jewish people. It’s heartbreaking for everyone involved. Gentiles can’t possibly understand until they realize what the Divine Mandate is for the Jewish people.
This slander of Chabad — it always turns that way doesn’t it Hannah? They love us until it is obvious that we see the smoke and mirrors and we’re not buying the lies anymore…then the bashing comes. Then we find out how much they really love us. They love us as long as they can co-opt our world for their use. Once we say enough is enough, all bets are off.
I know a lot of really nice Chabadnikim too. The comments here against Chabad are extremely offensive.
Furthermore, outreach of Jews TO Jews is not proselytizing. Chabad is not “Chabadnikism” — it’s Hasidic, Torah Judaism… well within the parameters of what is referred to as Orthodox Judaism.
I know many nice Messianic Jews. It doesn’t mean I can’t criticise the elements of Messianic Judaism that I disagree with, or I find illogical. Same goes for Chabad.
בס”ד
The slander that is written here about Chabad is not mere “criticism”.
The criticism that is written here about Chabad is not mere “slander”.
Unbeliever:
‘Honor thy father and thy mother” – Ha Shem. They kept their faith, even though they are persecuted by their relative. What’s in them that they persevere? What’s in you that you do not follow this mitzvot: Honor thy father and thy mother? Who is worse, then? Assuming Jesus is not the messiah, so what? What’s important is that His teachings make your parents somehow different from you: a cursing, ingrate, backstabbing so-called “Jewish” daughter that you are. It hurts G-d to know that a “zealous” Jewess is a backstabbing cursing daughter of her parents. Who is vindicated? Our loyalty to our ethnicity ends when our loyalty to G-d ends. Being a Jew is nothing when he is not loyal to G-d who exalted his race as a chosen one. Are you loyal to G-d or to your race? Which is more important to you?
You can’t find Jesus in Isaiah 53. Of course! It is as if saying that King David was even mentioned in name by Jacob or Moses or Balaam or by one of the Judges before him.
If the Suffering Servant was Israel, then:
Isaiah 53:8 (DEAD SEA SCROLL VERSION] says, “”From arrest and from mishpat he [ISRAEL] was taken [away], and with his [ISRAEL] generation who will converse? For he [ISRAEL] was cut from the land of the living; out of the rebellious-felony against Torah′ by His [HaShem's] kindred he [ISRAEL] has been stricken for them.”
WAIT? WAS ISRAEL CUT OFF FROM THE LAND OF THE LIVING? WAS ISRAEL A “RIGHTEOUS” SERVANT EVER [LOOK UP AT V.11] WHO WILL JUSTIFY MANY [INCLUDING THE GOYIM] THAT ISRAEL WILL BEAR THEIR INIQUITIES? IF THAT IS TRUE THEN YOU ARE JUST JUSTIFYING THE MURDERS OF THE JEWS THROUGHOUT THE CENTURIES BECAUSE “HE [ISRAEL] WAS BRUISED FOR OUR [WHO IS TALKING HERE? GOYIMS OR ISAIAH?] INIQUITIES; THE CHASTISEMENT OF OUR [GOYS OR ISAIAH?] PEACE WAS UPON HIM: AND WITH HIS [ISRAEL] STRIPES WE ARE HEALED”… OR: “But ISRAEL was pained because of ISAIAH’S PEOPLE transgressions, crushed because of ISAIAH’S PEOPLE iniquities; the chastisement of ISAIAH’S PEOPLE welfare was upon ISRAEL, and with ISRAEL’S wound ISAIAH’S PEOPLE were healed.” MAKES NO SENSE. ISAIAH’S PEOPLE WERE ALSO THE JEWS. ILLOGICAL IF THAT IS WHAT WE MEANT. ERGO IN THE GOYIM’S PERSPECTIVE THIS IS LIKE: “THANK YOU ISRAEL, WE ARE DOING THIS POGROMS AND HOLOCAUST TO YOU BECAUSE YOU WILL MAKE US NOT SINNERS BEFORE YOUR GOD AND IT WILL HEAL US. HEHEHE.” – TSARIST RUSSIAN AND A NAZI SS PERSONNEL IN A SADISTIC MANNER [HYPOTHETICAL]. WOAH! SO DO NOT COMPLAIN ABOUT ANTISEMITISM BECAUSE YOU JUSTIFY THEIR ACTIONS! THEY HAVE NOTHING ELSE TO TAKE BUT TO DO IT BECAUSE IT WOULD MAKE THEM CLEAN AND BE HEALED BEFORE G-D’S EYES, AND TAKEN THAT [ASSUMING] YOU ARE ALL RIGHTEOUS.
ISRAEL OR MOSHIACH??? OR WHO? ARIEL SHARON? YITCHAK KADURI? M.M.SCHNEERSON?
Moreover, don’t think that Chassidism was always considered a legitimate form of Judaism. Haven’t you heard of the Misnagdim? Don’t you know that the Hassidim were excommunicated from Judaism several times? Don’t believe everything you hear. Go look it up. Don’t you know that the rabbis have been bullying other Jews who don’t believe the same things as them for a long time? If you love Judaism, then go and look up other expressions of Judaism. Go look up the misnagdim. If you care at all about Truth and about yourself and about what God wants for you then please read the New Testament and ask God if it is true yourself and don’t just believe something that someone says because someone said it. Do the historical research. Find out what Josephus said about John the Baptist and what the Talmud says about Yeshua and look at the historic evidence for Christ, the New Testament manuscripts and the resurrection. Don’t believe that it was some oral law, enough material to fill out several volumes passed to Moses on Mount Sinai that has kept the Jewish people alive when it was God who kept our people alive and has remained faithful to us while we were unfaithful to Him. Break the chain, refuse to get on the bandwagon, think for yourself.
Hi Private, check out my document Hasidic Explosion here: http://roshpinaproject.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/hasidic-explosion1.pdf
What Gev said…