John Piper on Jews, the Tanach and the Trinity

John Piper, the preaching pastor of Bethlehem Baptist Church in Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA,  is asked the question “Did the Old Testament Jews believe in a triune God?”

The question is framed in a slightly odd way, rather than asking: did the Jewish people in the Old Testament period…

Piper gives his considered opinion, which opens several avenues of discussion. I was heartened that he affirmed that the God of Israel was and is the one true God whom he also worships. Anyway have a watch and see what you think.

38 thoughts on “John Piper on Jews, the Tanach and the Trinity”

  1. I agree that it was very kind of him to emphasis that Jews were (and presumably are still) worshipping the correct G-d, whether or not they (we) perceived Him with the presumably advanced perception that views Him as Triune. This is a far cry from infamous undiplomatic statements made by a Southern Baptist a few decades ago. Of course, this doesn’t begin to touch on the sticky discussion about whether the Christian triunity view is mistaken rather than advanced — over-exaggerating the incorporation of ancient godly characteristics into the human Rav Yeshua as something more than what is described by Rav Shaul in Phil.2:5-11, and misreading the opening lines of Yohanan’s besorah. But discussing differences of viewpoint did not seem to be the intention of the forum from which this video was excerpted.

    1. Proclaim, you’re allowing your Socianism to show.
      I disagree with Piper, in some important ways the Tenach is clearer than the NT in questions of Who God is and what He is like, take the image of God in Gen 5.1-3 for example, it’s impossible to understand Paul’s argument in Romans without this. Tenach is foundational, the NT its elaboration.

  2. There is plenty of Trinitarian material in the Tanach, as there most certainly and increasingly is in the NT, but nowhere is it codified, except perhaps Matt. 28:19, and Galatians 4:6. That task has been done retrospectively by theologians who specialise is systematics, which is very helpful and easier to do by those with the NT at their disposal due to the increased data. That said, it is deductible from the Tanach alone. There is only one God, and at any time along the progressive line of revelation, His triune nature has increasingly been discerned. He has not changed.

  3. It is like physics:

    Physicists believe that there is a unified theory to describe everything in the Universe – an ECHAD FORCE.

    From quarks to the whole Universe, there is always this rule of three-in-one. We could say that magnetism is not electricity, microscopically, but in the atomic or quantum level, electricity and magnetism are almost unidentifiable – they are one (Hebrew has a better term: ECHAD). Light is a three-in-one phenomenon. Maxwell (JCM), a Scottish physicist, derived the speed of light c as equal to the ratio between electric field E and magnetic field B, that is: c = E/B. We can break magnets but we cannot hold electricity with our hands, such as lightning [we crucified the Son but we hold the Father with awe and fear]. Light, propagates in space with a speed of light c (c for celeritas, Latin for swiftness), which is 300 million meters per second. As a wave, light waves do not have a locality in space [just as the Ruach HaQodesh has no FORM]. But light can also behave as a particle, as if it can be located in a particular space [just as when the LORD can appear as The Angel or the Son]. We call light behaving as a particle, photon. Einstein proved this by introducing the idea of photoelectric effect in 1905. Quarks are UP, DOWN, Strange or TOP, BOTTOM and Charm. The Universe is governed by at least three grand forces – ELECTROWEAK, Strong and Gravitational. GOD is Ruach HaQodesh, Avi-ad, Memra.

    Space-time, according to A. Einstein, is a manifold of space and time – you can convert space into time (or vice versa) by using a converter. This converter is the speed of light c. Mass and Energy are also one, the equation for this is: E = mc^2. Again, the speed of light (c) is there.

    We could not understand Einstein’s theories (especially the Special Theory of Relativity and the General Theory) easily because the ideas are too not so in the common-sense regimes. We find the ideas so hard to understand at first that we need to study the theories well before we could make any progress. Does that not remind us of the idea of TRINITY?

    Actually, S. Freud, in psychology, treated humans as if a trinity: we have the Id, the Ego and the Super-Ego. If you are weak in flesh, surely you are culturing your Id “personality”. You can treat women as if they were goldfishes and get laid with them, with as many as possible. The Ego is more rational and the Super-Ego is more idealistic or better yet, more religious. Christianity’s NT wants us to develop a balance between the Ego and the Super-Ego.

    I call Einstein, Freud and all other Jewish physicists and thinkers, Esther-like Prophets – GOD is not invoked but He is implied with their ideas.

    Please do not be harsh to attack my ideas, I am just sharing my thoughts.

    1. We should LOVE the LORD our GOD with all our heart [is not Yeshua in our hearts, Christians talk about Yeshua being in a believer’s heart], with all our soul [is not the Ruach HaQodesh not our Comforter?] and with all our strength [is not the Father, EL, Strong, our Keep, our Might, our Power?].

      YOU cannot love without someone to love and without GOD, the source of love. LOVE is also a trinity. So we love our neighbor as we love ourself. There are no monoloves – that is idolatry. Yeshua does not only love Yeshua. He loves His Father. The Father does not only love the Father, He blessed the SON and sent Him to the world. He created the Universe for the Moshiach and hovered over the waters of the Earth.

      What is wrong with Trinity? None.

      Trinity is the advance way to worship GOD. We have to pray three times a day, right? Christians should pray three times a day to worship GOD – a true Christian does that.

      Muslims pray five times a day because they do not know GOD. Complete prayer is praying three times a day – worshiping three times. Muslims end their prayer with one more prayer to fill the day: 5 – 3 = 2. 5 times a day prayer is only equivalent to praying the morning and afternoon prayers, they miss one more prayer. They could not complete the whole worship because their prayers are empty – they do not know GOD and GOD could not hear them. If you want that GOD listens to you, pray three times a day, in spirit and in truth. Arrow prayers and impromptus are not part of these main (3) prayers. We should fill the day with these three prayers to formally worship GOD. For in Him we live and move and have our being (another three).

      GOD bless you and be a blessing…

      1. I found this to be very interesting and think Piper takes a middle of the road position between triunity and those Christians who are adamantly insistent that in order to be “saved” one must believe “in the Trinity” of G-d. One of the fallacies in the church is to present the trinity/triunity in a dispensational sense. The Spirit came at Pentecost, the Son came 30+ years before then, the Father is timeless. God said, the Spirit moved on the waters, Yeshua the Word was existent in the beginning. If anyone knows of a Messianic Systematic Theology text could you post that in a reply? Thanks.

  4. Thank goodness we have a Baptist minister to tell us all what Jews believe!
    Don’t you think it’s just a little disingenuous to think that a Baptist Minister would have the audacity to suggest he knows what the “old testament” Jews believe? So what are “old testament Jews” anyway? Does he suggest that we couldn’t possibly know our own history?
    “I don’t think they were clear on the nature of G-d in the way that we are clear…”
    Here’s a newsflash, G-d is infinite and NO ONE should ever suppose to know the nature of G-d.
    “Progressive revelation”? How does he ignore that G-d revealed Himself to us at Mount Sinai? He supposes that we believed in the “triune G-d” in that the Christians came along later and showed us that He is triune because he always was but we just didn’t know it?
    We believed in the G-d who is the triune G-d? Says who? Really? This suggests that because Christianity has defined G-d (as if anyone can define G-d) as a triune G-d therefore He is and we were always worshiping Him retroactively or something equally inane. Not so! This is proof positive that the god of the Christians is NOT the G-d of the Jews. Choose which one you shall worship.
    If this Christian minister wants to know what Jews believe and believed in the past ASK A JEW!
    The “so called plurality” of G-d is that He is the G-d of ALL, the totality of everything. Don’t you think it limits him to suggest he’s less than everything but instead He is only triune?

    1. leah8: “Here’s a newsflash, G-d is infinite and NO ONE should ever suppose to know the nature of G-d.”

      You are definitely right and so since “GOD is infinite and NO ONE should ever suppose to know the nature of GOD” you must concede also to the fact that you do not know either. That to think of Him as a basic, linear, arithmetical one, in a fiat monotheistic belief is also not enough because NO ONE is supposedly knowledgeable of His exact nature and might constitute idolatry.

      We have many ones: 1 car, 1 house, 1 nature of man, 1 humanity, 1 joule, 1 meter, 1 newton force, 1 pascal of pressure, 1 kilometer, 1 mm, 1 micrometer, 1 family, …, 1 race, 1 nation…, ad infinitum. For example, water [singular] can stand as it is to refer to all of water in the Universe [such as: “the entire water of the Universe”].

      But what is number really? Is it a set, a function, a group, etc? What is one really? No one can arrive at a single understanding of what a number really is. The fact is, there are many types of number. And in fact, no one has ever found an exact definition or representation of a number. There is variety.

      Actually, GOD could be an infinite number of individuals all at the same time without a sweat. He can take counsel with an infinite number of His. The more I think of its implications, my head hurts. He is not a linear, fiat one one. But He is the Ein Sof.

      “Let US make man…”
      “Let US move hence…” [Josephus reports about the Priests hearing a sound as if of a multitude saying this before the Temple was destroyed in 70 CE]

      – The Memra [Word of GOD] created Nature full of 3-in-One systems and Nature is shouting about it. Trinity is at least natural and so it must be logical. Interestingly, the whole Universe is governed by Three Grand Forces – Electroweak (electromagnetic force and weak interaction force), Strong and Gravitation. But physicists strongly believe that all of these forces constitute a grand single force quipped as the Force of Everything.

      Everything is singular, yet diverse. GOD is everything yet Personal. Do not believe in this idea, that is very fine but, at least, be open just as I am open to reincarnation, though I do not personally believe it, since GOD can make all things possible because nothing is impossible for Him. I believe that GOD can clone spirits – exact nature, exact characteristics, perhaps, the same experiences but not the same person but two or more spirits.

      “…but we have the mind of the Moshiach.” 1 Corinthians 2:16

      Enough said.

      Thank you for the space. GOD bless you and be a blessing.

  5. Dear friend/s,
    As of now it maybe right as to the effect in your Tanach book but i think and it is now that will create a heavy impact of doubt, now that many of your believers of Tanach (or other) who read and easily understand our exposition of the gospel that there is really truth in each teaching of the New Covenant Plan of Salvation in which many did not understand and believe (before and even up to now) and many more may have to happen sooner, for they will be in trouble if they would not analyze this information (personally)! Now that you get us right in our understanding in the Gospel. Frankly, that the truth of this TRUE teaching is a very mystically concealed Truth by G-d intension of “rewarding its understanding only to chosen redeem Israelites (Mark 4:11)” which was already written and accounted for to those recipient in the book of Revelation 7:1-8, numbering to 144,000 from 12 thousand of each tribe representation, for a re-gathering duration of 2000yrs reign of Yashua Messiah. And they call it the 1st division period of the New Covenant Plan as prophesies in the O.T. prophet books as the “Days of the Lord Judgment” (Jerimiah 31:31) and to Jacob in Gen. 49:1 as “the Last Days”. The fulfilment of this prophesy in the New Covenant Plan of G-d was also written in the N.T. (Gospel) as Yashua Messiah proclaimed in parable style with mystical concealment in Mt. 24:36 “that no one knows the Days and Hour except the father” and this really happen that no one ever know their fulfilment and their happening event except to those chosen Israelites (but only partial knowledge to his followers as in Act 1:6-7. So, the Word of G-d from O.T. to N.T. is working alive to every believer without knowing or understanding that they are already been judged in Mathew 25:31-46!

  6. John Piper, an American Calvinist, is a replacewment theology advocate who denies the prophetic significance of Israel.

    What makes Piper a false teacher and a deceiver however is his promotion of Rick Warren’s anti scriptural ‘Pupose Driven Lie’.

    Yes, in the Hebrew scriptures God reveals Himself as Tri-une, that is true. But I do not need John Piper to tell me that. I do not need that false vteacher to tell me anything.

  7. Piper reflects the common fallacy among theologians about how the Tri-Unity of God was somehow obscure in the Tanach. Yoel Natan produces strong evidence in his book The Jewish Trinity that the Patriarchs understood the three-ness of the Godhead. Extreme monotheism wasn’t emphasized until certain Jews decided to distance themselves from Christian beliefs in order to distinguish their beliefs as different by trying to make the Trinity doctrine appear as a multiplicity of gods. Maimonides wrote of God’s oneness by changing the words used by Moses from echad to yachid! Echad (plurality in unity) is used of Adam and Eve being “ONE” (echad) flesh. Moses wrote of YHWH Elohim as being “ONE” (echad/plural unity) in the Shema, but not as yachid (singular).
    He had to change the word for “one” from the plural form into the singular so as to discredit Christians and their faith in God Who is a plurality in unity.

    1. Oh bull! More Christian manipulation of the Hebrew scriptures to get Jews to convert. Is it so hard for you to let Jews practice Judaism and not believe in your demi-god?

      1. Leah, Not that I believe in Caballah, but does the Zohar manipulate the Hebrew scriptures also when it identifies Ha Shem with the Metatron and calls Him “The Middle Pillar of The God Head”? Ther concept of Tri-unity is not a Christian invention. Christianity however, in its pure sacriptural form is very much a Jewish invention. Yeshua, His followers, and The New Testament authors were Jewish.

        The only reason Christians believe in Yeshua as The Jewish Messuah is because Jews believed it first. Even Jewish historian Max Dimont among others agrees that 25% of the Jews in Jerusalem held Him to be The Messiah at the onset of Bar Cochba’s rebellion in the second century. If He is indeed the Messiah, my family did not convert to anything. They became completed Jews.

        Additionally, which Judaism are you referring to please? The Judaism of Moses of which has not existed since 70 CE as the prophet Daniel predicted would take place in chapter 9 of his book once the Messiah came and died, or are you talking about the Talmudic invented by the rabbis after the Messiah came and true Judaism could no longer be practiced fulfilling the prophetic predictions of Jeremiah 2:13?

        From Bar Cochba to Sabbatair Zvi to Jacob Frank to Menahem Schneerson, the rabbis of talmudic Judaism have led the Jewish people astray following one false messiah after another. Believers in Yeshua follow the true One. I pray Ha Shem opend your eyes to the Hebrew scriptures. We would love to see you in heaven because our Moshiach made Kapporah for your sin instead of in hell with those who reject their own Messiah. Ask Ha Shem to show you and He will show you.

        1. Jacob,
          Kabbalah is the exploration of the deeper mysteries of G-d. It does not change anything in the Torah but delves deeper into understanding it. The gematria takes the numerical value of each letter, word, prase, verse and considers the relationship and meaning they have to each other. The number 3 signifies completeness and stability as in the three Patriachs, the three pilgrimage festivals, etc. All numbers have significance in Judaism. The number 5 is significant because of the five books of Moses. Seven represents creation, etc.
          The fact that we find any significance in the number three is in no way an endorsement of your trinity doctrine. They are completely different. One is applied to the various values and hidden meaninngs of three and one is applied to a specific man, doctrine and religion apart from Judaism.
          Just because you see the number three in something does not mean that something is somehow about J.
          First century Jerusalem was under Roman rule and there was great corruption in the Temple Priesthood. They were looking for a messiah. J was not the only messiah at that time. There were others.
          Also, you did not interpret Daniel 9 right. Go to Rabbi Singers website for the best interpretation of Daniel. It is most definitely not about J.
          The Judaism we have presently is the Judaism in the Diaspora. It is how we are able to stay connected without a Temple when we are not in the Land of Israel. Do you think we can really do many of the things we are commanded when we are not there? Sure, many are back in the land and in a short time have begun to establish many of these things but it is still Judaism without a Temple. It cannot be the same.
          The Rabbis have not led us astray but rather the believers in your messiah have. The Rabbis of the Talmud have helped us to interpret Torah in the context of our world outside of the Land. You just don’t understand these things in context of Judaism but you can’t know this since you have separated from the Jewish culture and Judaism in the context of a Jewish lifestyle apart from the Christian belief system. You only know Torah from a Christian perspective and have never studied it from the other side. You think you do but you can’t possibly understand what it means to be observant in traditional Judaism, studying Torah from teachers in a regular ‘real’ synagogue – not this church you call a messianic synagogue.

        2. Greetings Leah, and thanks for responding.

          I know what Caballah is, I know what Gematria is, and I know who Tuvya Singer is. I do not need to go to his website.

          I never went to a yeshiva, but although my background was in science I attended Hebrew University and I did Judaism at Cambridge (not that it matters much). My wife is a mathamarician by profession but she has degrees in Hebnrew language and History of The Jewish peoplem (not that this matters much either). Believe me, you do not to explain to me about Caballah and Gematria.

          Caballah derives from Babylonian gnosticism with incipient influences into Judaism from the so callede “gaonim” finding its ultimate home in Itzfat after working its way back eastward. Its momentum soared due to Bal Shem Tov, the Jewish mystic etc. and the influences of figures such as Rabbi Issac Luria.

          Gematria predates Caballah. The Zohar redefined Gematria with mystical numbers etc.; influences that are pagan and occult rooted in the superstitions of numerology. The entire
          ‘en soph’ philosophy underlyomh a cabbalistic view of Ha Sjem is pure gnosticism, not scriptural Judaism.

          Tuvya Singer’s case for Daniel 9 is frankly silly as are other later rabbinic arguments concerning the obscure figure “Yotam”. Singer’s claims contradict even the more ancient sages . Try reading Yalkut Vol.II (page 74 dahlet) for yourself. Try reading Nazir 32 beht. I quote from the Midrash Rabbah (page 243 Warsaw edition): “Messiah is to exit in 33 CE/ AD”.

          As Rabbi Leopold Cohen discovered, it is indeed about Messiah, thus the rabbinic curse on reading it (“for the time of the Messiah’s coming is foretold in it”).. Because of its impact on seeing Jews come to accept Yeshua only later rabbis concocted alternative and contradictory interpretations of it. It is the same brand of nonsense Rashi pulled with Isaiah 53. The targum Yonatan and Sanhedtin tractates indeed indicated it to be messianic and Eliezar Ha Kalir incorporated it into the old maqzor for Yom Kippur. Rabbi Abraham Farisel stated “it bears an astounding resemblence to Jesus of Nazareth” so Rashi came along and gave it a meaning the ancient sages never did nor would have.

          Hence you have an evolved Judaism based on rabbinic commentary with one rabbi contradicting another and later ones contradicting earlier ones.

          If Tuvya Singer wants to debate me in front of a camera just say where and when.
          But he not the issue. No Leah, you have avoided the issue. The rabbinic track record from Rabbi Akiva proclaiming Bar Cochba to be messiah onward demonstrates misguided rabbis contradicting eachother and misleading the Jewish people into following one false messiah after another.

          Rabbi Yeshua Bar Yosef M’ Netzaret alone however (whom the goyim call Jesus of Nazareth) fulfills the messianic prophecies.

          Leah, I really like nice Yiddisha Shana Madels like you. You don’t seem like the ‘JAPS’ (Jewish American Princesses) I attended the Jewish community center with in my youth because you seem to care about the most important things and realise the secret to happiness is not another Gucci bag and Abba’s credit card. My Israeli wife is a nice Jewish girl too as is my Israeli daughter, and once you come to faith in your true Messiah Yeshua you will really be a nice Jewish girl too!

          I prayed to The God of Israel for your salvation this afternoon after I read your earlier blog entry.

          Lots of Love and Happy Purim; ‘Hag Purim Sameach’.
          I bet you can bake fantastic chomentashen !

          Jacob Prasch

        3. Oh brother, so you went to college and you studied science. Listen to Dr. Andrew Goldfinger for a couple of hours and I’m sure you’ll feel foolish.
          For someone as well studied as you are how is it you haven’t figured out yet that J is not HaMoshiach? How do you account for the fact that he didn’t fulfill the messianic prophecies, the very first one being that he is not of the seed of David! How do you explain him if human sacraifice is an abomination to G-d? How do you explain him in light of the fact that blood isn’t required for forgiveness of sins? Did you skip that chapter?
          I watched some of your videos but judging from your notes here you’re arrogant, pompous and can throw around some big words.
          You can plug them into your own theology and come up with your spellbinding thesis to convince everyone you’re brilliant. Then to make it all authentic you toss out something so condescending as “You don’t seem like the ‘JAPS’ I attended the Jewish community center with….” Very patronizing. You’re no different than the rest of them. You’ll go to the ends of the earth to prove what can’t be proven while we sit back and pray you’ll return. Did it ever once occur to you to go to the ends of the earth to prove Judaism got it right? Once those Christians got you on Isaiah 53 they had you. Too bad you didn’t study Torah as a child or you would have known that the Servant is Israel. From there on in they were able to show you all of the Tanakh with a Christian slant.
          Don’t pray for my salvation. I spent forty years down that path. I’ve been written about in the archives of church history for my experience in the JPM. G-d is my salvation.

      2. Hey Jacob,

        As far as false messiahs are concerned you better be careful about your comparisons. In so far as what they have actually accomplished re. the Judaic understanding of Moshiach, they are all pretty much nil for nil( and I do include Yeshu in that group).

        As for Kochba, well for the year that he had consolidated leadership in Jerusalem, there was new coinage minted, the temple and the sacrifices ran according to schedule,Jews were free to openly study, learn and practice Torah and the Romans were …not welcomed. So, of the traditional messianic expectations -)all Jews united in the holy city under Moshiach’s “human, earthly” rule….check, -) Jews free to study and follow Torah free of human restraint….check…..two for two,,, much better than your boy Y. Yes in the end Kochba failed as well, inciting Roman antisemitism down on Jerusalem in ways that had never been seen until that point with terrifying losses to Jewish civilization and culture. Losses that were essentially an ancient near east Shoah. However, in so far what he accomplished from the perspective of Jewish expectation, not xtian expectation ; well, I would say Kochba pretty much comes out on top of the “pretenders” to the throne list.

        So as a Jew, if its is up to me to personally accept an ancient Judean claiming the title of HaMoshiach, and that is essential for me to be “complete”. and “secure”.

        You keep J., I’ll take Kochba.

  8. I noted a request for a messianic systematic theology. I’m sure they are emerging but I wouldn’t shy away from standard works like Grudhem’s, read with your eyes wide open, it is very good.

    When I listen to the well meaning talk of a God who can do anything, and who is unknowable, such thoughtful works help dispell the inherent lack of knowledge such statements can harbour.

    He can do anything, but in fact only does that which is consistent with His own nature. To do otherwise would be to abdicate. He can sin but does not. To know this is based on what He has revealed of Himself: His pristeen holiness, His sovereign power, His absolute love etc.

    That isn’t to say that theological knowledge is the same as personal experience, that only comes through faith of which all who have it, have only a measure and therefore are limited in their capacity to enjoy the Father as the Son does.

    Our natures having been corrupted by sin we may most nearly attain such fellowship as a collective – the Messiah’s body of followers on earth (Jew and Gentile) but not as individuals.

    1. Thank you for this name reference. Also to the one who mentioned the book title The Jewish Trinity by Yoel Natan, thank you too. I like the activity that occurs here and the resources on the Roshpina Project in general. I consider myself a 21st century God-fearer as it were..
      David Russell

  9. Is Yeshua a demigod, or the modern meaning, half-god? No.

    Why? Again, let us take the ocean and ocean water-in-a-jar as our analogy. We scooped seawater from the ocean, say 3/4 liter, and put in a 1 liter jar. The jar is not cut in half or broken, it is a vessel to contain the water from the ocean.

    For all we know, the ocean and the ocean water-in-a-jar have the same INTRINSIC properties. That simply means that they have the same specific heat capacity, same density, same boiling point, same freezing point, same electrical resistance or conductivity, so and so no matter how small the amount of ocean water in the jar there is. For example, the average density of seawater is 1.025 kg/m^3, that is, the ocean and the ocean water-in-a-jar has the same density of 1.025 kg per every cubic meter of water even if the ocean is relatively infinite as compared to the amount of seawater that the jar contains. The essence of seawater of both are the same and will always be.

    The jar itself is not half jar, unless you saw it in half. The ocean water it contains is not half ocean water because it is basically the same in nature with the kind of water of the ocean. The ocean water-in-a-jar is fully ocean water (seawater) and of course the jar is fully jar and not half jar (again, unless you saw it in half). I cannot think of other logic that would insist that the ocean water-in-a-jar is half-ocean water and the jar, half-jar, only because we have placed a 3/4 liter seawater in the jar . Please be logical.

    The ocean represents GOD. The ocean water-in-a-jar represents Yeshua (Metatron the Youth?).

    Thank you so much for the space…

    GOD bless you and be a blessing.

    1. Not a valid analogy. Water and glass does not a human make.
      Try this analogy:
      If a white woman is impregnated by a black man, isn’t that child half white, half black? Or an child who has a Japanese mother and a white father is half Japanese.
      If a woman is impregnated by G-d and gives birth to a human, isn’t that person half human and also half G-d? a demi-god.
      C’mon goyish, there were many demi-gods during that era who were born of unions between women and gods. Look it up! It’s certainly nothing new that a man would be born of a woman we was impregnated by a god.

      1. Not a valid analogy…

        The black man still has the same human nature as the white woman. Are you telling me that one of them is a subhuman at least? The “intrinsic properties” of the child’s humanity is the same as her parents. So, their child is, amazingly, not half-ape but a full human.

        You can’t halve the intrinsic properties of GOD. I would better review my high school chemistry or physics to understand what this means.

  10. Yet, whoever the father is, if the mother is Jewish, the kid is Jewish! That’s my experience, and that’s no analogy (unless he believes in The Messiah, then he’s a goy even if both his parents were Jewish – ask the Rabbinate and Israeli Supreme Court).

    The fact is that this half and half thing is a error that’s been knocking around for a long time. God the Son – very God, begotten, not created, took on flesh, the Son of God, fully God and fully man – the Son of Man and dwelt among us, suffering at our hands.

    Now, incarnate, He sits at the Father’s right hand in glory until His enemies are made His footstool, and will return as Judge.


    1. Do you know where that doctrine comes from? Study church history and study the councils and synods then start doing a little research on their insertions into their ‘new testament’. They invented all of it and most of it was politically motivated!

    1. Yes, you are Jewish if your mother is Jewish and you are Jewish if you convert according to Halacha which means study under a Rabbi, appear before a Beit Din and immerse in a Mikvah. However, if the children are born to a mother who converts before conversion, they are not Jewish.
      My remarks were regarding your theology of the “incarnate” G-d. This is a doctrine established across several synods by the church. You really should study the history of the church as well as the Reformation. This is where the majority of your doctrine comes from.

      1. I have done my homework. Doctrine is either exegetical or eisagetical, read out from, or read into Scripture. The Ecumenical Councils, and the Creeds they penned were established to quell heresy, and to affirm orthodoxy. The reformation was and still is about reviewing those conclusions in the light of scripture, paring away tradition, and committing to exegesis where eisegesis has taken place. The incarnation is absolutely vindicated.

  11. Oy my dear Leah.
    As I said, formal education doesn’t mean much to me, I only mentioned it because you played that card with Tuvya Singer.

    Actually you are mistaken. The ancient sages all agreed in the necessity of blood atonement.
    Try reading how and why the sages in the Septuagint translated v’ikrah/ Leviticus 17 :”Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin”.

    You ignored that Tuvya Singer’s position is at odds with the earlier tractates and the midrashim, (face it – Singer is a ‘schlockhouse’ rabbi) and you have even forgotten the chomentashen. You have circumvented the issues. Sorry to be a pebble in your boot but I will continue to pray for your salvation.

    Tell me, we have the Ha Moshioch Ben Yosef prophecies and the Ha Moshioch Ben David prophecies; the Ben Efraim predictions of Isaiah’s suffering servant and the conquering king predictions to be fulfilled after He returns in glory in Zecheriah 12 etc. (as Rashi admits).
    Yes, okay – you say I am an arrogant such and such”’ or whatever; indeed a real reprobate.
    My pretty wife even calls me a “gemanerink”. Now that we have that settled, can we please move on address the issues . Every time I present you facts you reply with hyperbolic ad hominem “schpilchus” that derives from emotion not logic – in plain Yiddish – “nareshkeit”.

    Now please tell me , how do you reconcile Tuvya Singer re Sefer Daniel paroch 9 with the sages who affirm the messianic interprtetation? And which of the Ben Efraim prophecies did Yeshua not fulfill? And this time please don’t forget the chomentashen.

    Your friend & public admirer,

    Jacob Prasch

  12. PS for Leah

    I almost forgot.

    If you read Sanhedrin 25c you will see “Miriam Bat Heli” commenting on the genealogy of Yeshua.. The ancient rabbis confirmed He was maternally of direct Davidic descent. I am afraid you are wrong again. Your first problem is not that you do not understand Christianity (which is only messianically fulfilled Torah with salvation extended to the Gentiles), but rather that you do not understand Judaism. But don’t worry, I once had a sidewalk debate with a very prominent orthodox rabbi on the West Side of Manhattan near Lincoln Centre who had the same problem.

    That Sanhedrin 25c reference sent Rabbi Craig Kosov and his now deceased successor at Operation Judaism South Africa branch Rabbi Graham Finklestrien heading to the hills. Any more takers ?

    How would you like to meet my friend Rabbi Michael Gubberman? He did attend Yeshiva as a kid. In fact he went on to become an ultra orthodox rabbi in Bnai Brak. Now he is follower of his Messiah Yeshua. Since you don’t seem to like me and won’t even perform the mitzveh of bringing me some chomentashen, I am sure Rabbi Guberman can answer all of your questions. He lioves here in Britain.

    By the way, my family is mixed blood. As a baby I was both sprinkled and clipped. My mother is not Jewish so I only attended The Jewish Community Center in my youth, not heder thankfully.
    Instead I was forced to attend a Catholic school to suffer that paganized , corrupt , and anti Semitic distortion of true Christianity which in its pure untwisted scriptural form is a Hebraic faith.

    Not to sound arrogant, so I will only quote your rabbis. Rabbi Arkush of Operation Judaism in the UK and Rabbi Finklestein of Operation Judaism in South Africa warned that Hebrew speaking evangelists like me know more about Judaism than most people who went to Yeshiva, and they say we know the Tenak better than many rabbis. Schmeulig Boteach canceled our scheduled debate in Cambridge. Rabbi Arkush refuses to debate me publicly. That is what I like about you Leah, you are not as intimidated as your mishugineh rabbis are. You instead just fail to respond to the issues altogether. Now can we please stop posturing and get down to dealing with the hard facts ? If not, just take the advice published in South Africa by Operation Judaism and run away because you can’t handle the truth of God’s Word.

    (I hope you had a nice Tu B’ Shvat)

    Yours truly with A Love For Israel & The Jews and the burdom of Ha Shem for their salvation.

    Brother Jacob Prasch



    [ Yes Leah, ‘surely you know His Name’ , it is YESHUA Ha MOSHIOCH]

  13. Guess Who Got Lying – Naughty Leah

    No Leah, no rabbi can answer your SOS for a pre targumic reference that Isaiah 52 & 53 are not about the Messiah because prior to Targum Yonatan there is no commentary. I know who you are but will not state your identity out of regard for the rules of the blog. But the fact is that you have lied (and not just about your name). You did not come to me with every with “every solid argument, rabbinic opinion, verse, scripture , and reference to prove Yeshua is not the servant of Isaiah 53 as you told your rabbis in your appealfor help re the targums; as everyone on this blog can read for themselves you didn’t come to me with any ! You have lied demonstrably.

    Moreover, you plainly do not even know the rabbinic opinions yourself. You are clearly unlearned even in rabbinic Judaism. You only mindlessly parrot what a rabbi tells you. It is little wonder you do not understand the messasge of Messiah when you do not even have a discernable knowlege of the Judaism you profess to believe in. If you want to learn about Judaism come to my church and I will teach you. Try reading these rabbis concerning Isaiah 52 & 53 :

    1) Sanhedrin 92B (talmudic tractate),
    2) Yalkut Vol. II page 53c,
    3) Sanhedrin 98B
    4) Midrash on Samuel (Lemberg edition page 45a)
    5) Peshita Rambam “about Messiah”

    6)Targum on Kingdom of Messiah
    Targum Yonatan : “My Servant The Messiah”.

    All of these say it about The Messiah and all except the Targum Yonatan itself post date the Targumim. and all were written by your beloved rabbis. Not until Rashi centuries later did any rabbis say otherwise Little Miss Know Nothing. In 1650 CE/ AD Rabbi Naphtali Ben Asher expressed amazement that Rashi followed by David Kimche did not say it was about Messiah and I already told you about Rabbi Abraham Farisel and Elizar Ha Kalir in the Maqzor for Yoma. Rabbi Crispia reacted against Rashi. Just go ask your rabbis to do the reading . All they can do is pilpul there way around it and all you can do is dodge the facts and lie .- even lie to them !

    If you really want to know Judaism I will give you one more rabbinic quote on Isaiah 52 & 53:
    Rabbi Moses Alshek stated: “All the sages agreed it is about the Messiah and we concur –
    Messiah suffers for our iniquities and those not so admitting will suffer for their own”.

    I knew you were an ignoramus and a charlatan who can only repeat what rabbis tell you like a paraquete. But today I discovered that you are a demonstrable liar. You never came to me with every rabbinic opinion and scripture etc. You did not come to me with any. How could you come with what you very obviously do not even know yourself? You have lied to those rabbis to whom you went for support and this is a shame and a disgrace. You even lied in writing to the rabbis you venerate.

    An ignoramus , a charlatan, and a religious fraud I can handle, but a liar !!!

    Mitba’ash Loch Giveret –

    Jacob Prasch

    1. Leah has a pick-and-choose judaism now for her faith. She feels she was cheated out of true Judaism all the years she claims to have been a Messianic. She probably never was a practicing Jew even before her Messianic days, but now wants to prove her Jewishness by trying to appear to be involved in true Judaism (whatever that is) to make up for it.

      1. James, I do not feel cheated. Did you read my story above about my involvement in the JPM?
        I think I have made it clear I was not a “practicing” Jew before. Your point?

  14. Yes Michael W, you take Simon Bar Cochba and I will take Yeshua.

    You take Bar Cochba whose failed rebellion riding on the back of his bogus claims promulgated by Rabbi Akiva to be the Messiah resulted in the Jewish people being driven out of their land for 18 centuries and being banned from Jerusalem by the Emporer Hadrian.

    I will take Yeshua who is the Messiah and who wept over Jerusalem because He saw the destruction your false messiah would bring upon it.

    By the way, since you are such a student of Jewish history you may know that other rabbis after his false messianic claims and the ensuing disaster called Bar Cochba (son of a star) ‘Bar kozibah’
    (The son of a Lie)..

    Yes, by all means you may take him.

    Jacob Prasch

  15. In order to be called Jewish you have to insult the Christians Messiah [Who is actually the TRUE MESSIAH, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD]. That sounds too Christian. It is ok. GOD smiles at me.

    “The stone which the builders rejected is become the chief corner-stone. This is the LORD’S doing; it is marvelous in our eyes.” Psalms 118:22-23

    Nothing new under the Sun.

    I really wonder why a man named Yeshua ben Hanan, of all names of men in Jerusalem, who, four years before the First Jewish-Roman War began in 66 CE, went around Jerusalem prophesying the city’s destruction.

    This is what Josephus records:

    But, what is still more terrible, there was one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian and a husbandman, who, four years before the war began, and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity, came to that feast whereon it is our custom for every one to make tabernacles to God in the temple (every Tishrei 15), began on a sudden to cry aloud, “A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against this whole people!” This was his cry, as he went about by day and by night, in all the lanes of the city. However, certain of the most eminent among the populace had great indignation at this dire cry of his, and took up the man, and gave him a great number of severe stripes; yet did not he either say any thing for himself, or any thing peculiar to those that chastised him, but still went on with the same words which he cried before. Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, “Woe, woe to Jerusalem!” And when Albinus [for he was then our procurator] asked him, Who he was? and whence he came? and why he uttered such words? he made no manner of reply to what he said, but still did not leave off his melancholy ditty, till Albinus took him to be a madman, and dismissed him. Now, during all the time that passed before the war began, this man did not go near any of the citizens, nor was seen by them while he said so; but he every day uttered these lamentable words, as if it were his premeditated vow, “Woe, woe to Jerusalem!” Nor did he give ill words to any of those that beat him every day, nor good words to those that gave him food; but this was his reply to all men, and indeed no other than a melancholy presage of what was to come. This cry of his was the loudest at the festivals; and he continued this ditty for seven years and five months, without growing hoarse, or being tired therewith, until the very time that he saw his presage in earnest fulfilled in our siege, when it ceased; for as he was going round upon the wall, he cried out with his utmost force, “Woe, woe to the city again, and to the people, and to the holy house!” And just as he added at the last, “Woe, woe to myself also!” there came a stone out of one of the engines, and smote him, and killed him immediately; and as he was uttering the very same presages he gave up the ghost.

    – Book 6, Chapter 5, Section 3 of the historian Flavius Josephus’ The Wars of the Jews or History of the Destruction of Jerusalem

    [insertion, mine]

    Why of all names? Was it to remind them of Maran Yeshua M’sheekha?

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